New Noah's Ark Finding: Any Thoughts?

[grannymh]

Granny, rather than sending me on an Easter egg hunt, you tell me what you want me to know about Noah from the CCC.

Since you keep referring to " descent of all humans from Noah" as if it were a Catholic teaching, I thought you might like to find out the truth. Just put Noah in the search box of *Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition * www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

By the way, an easy way to learn about Catholicism is to do an “Easter egg hunt” as you put it. Enjoy.

Blessings,
granny

The quest for knowledge can be rewarding.

 

[StAnastasia]

Since you keep referring to " descent of all humans from Noah" as if it were a Catholic teaching, I thought you might like to find out the truth. Just put Noah in the search box.

Later, like next week. I leave in a few hours to teach a week-long seminary course in a different state; this can wait. Have a good week, Granny!

StAnastasia

 

[PeterClatworthy]

Peter, I am a theologian, not a scientist. I work with scientists from many different scientific disciplines, as I teach in an interdisciplinary masters program.

If you understand the Noachian flood story as the theological recension by the Hebrew scribes of a Babylonian story that may have echoed an historic flood in the Ancient Near East, that seems eminently credible to me. If you understand the Noachian flood story as the “flood geologists do” – namely, as a global flood that covered every region of the earth with water above the tops of all the mountains, and that involved taking on board the ark the ancestors of every living terrestrial species on earth – that is not scientifically credible. What’s more, it misses the theological point of the story, which is testimony to God’s saving power and the covenant with what would become the “chosen people.”

StAnastasia

Well, as I understand it, the “chosen people” were the Tribes of Israel. They did NOT as far as I am aware, at that time in human history, inhabit the entire globe.

“Although the term Druid is local, their religion was of deep root, and a distant origin. It was of equal antiquity with those of the Persian Magi, the Chaldeans of Assyria, and the Brahmins of Hindustan. It resembled them so closely in its sublime precepts, in its consoling promises, as to leave no doubt that these nations, living so widely apart, were all of the same stock and the same religion - that of Noah, and the children of men before the flood.” (SOURCE: Veil of isis or Mysteries of the Druids, W. Windwood Reade: 1861)

The Druidic religion was derived from the pre-Davidic Tribes of Israel.

 

[twinc]

For starters nobody has suggested your entire list full of its graphic detail was the consequence of an axis shift. This thread is trying to find out the basis of the story of Noah’s Ark.

Let me begin like this. What did the person writing that part of the Bible regard as being “the world”? What did he, she, or they know about the number of species in the world, even that part of the world that he, she, or they considered to be “the world”?

We haven’t got to the science yet, have we? We are talking about human perceptions about scientific phenomena.

As you know, if you are indeed a scientist, the axis of the Earth does shift periodically, and it does, as a matter of scientific fact, result in changes in the climate. Sometimes these changes are quite major.

So, rather than being so dismissive, perhaps we may start from there, and see where it leads us?

What do you summise the person writing that part of the Bible regarded as being “the earth” or “the world”?

here as elsewhere we have error upon error and confusion upon confusion for God as author of the Bible knew all about and exactly the world He had created - we are not all descended from Noah and his wife because his three sons had wives that were not his daughters - there were it seems only 127 kinds of animals - the ARK according to experts was perfectly designed to be unsinkable and withstand not just a local flood but a global one - there probably were some seeds and plants that survived in spite of the flood - neither Mt.Everest or other very high mountains,it seems existed before the flood - there were no continents before the flood for the earth was one landmass - btw if local flood/s it seems God has broken His promise many timesGen.9:15 - twinc

 

[cassini]

here as elsewhere we have error upon error and confusion upon confusion for God as author of the Bible knew all about and exactly the world He had created - we are not all descended from Noah and his wife because his three sons had wives that were not his daughters - there were it seems only 127 kinds of animals - the ARK according to experts was perfectly designed to be unsinkable and withstand not just a local flood but a global one - there probably were some seeds and plants that survived in spite of the flood - neither Mt.Everest or other very high mountains,it seems existed before the flood - there were no continents before the flood for the earth was one landmass - btw if local flood/s it seems God has broken His promise many times[Gen.9:15 - twinc

Absolutely 100% correct twinc, but you are up against the one heresy that seemingly has no way out, a false epistemology born out of the Copernican heresy, the so-called autonomy of science:

Let me quote Professor of Philosophy Marcello Pera:

The conclusion is that, at least on some important points, science and Catholic religion are in conflict.
One might object that this conflict concerns the relationship between truths of faith and scientific hypotheses, not scientific truths. But the objection is untenable. Firstly because, according to a more adequate epistemology than Pius XII’s [Big Bang=God’s Creation], all scientific truths are hypothetical; >
‘Any physical theory is always provisional in the sense that it is only a hypothesis: you can never prove it. No matter how many times the results of experiments agree with some theory, you can never be sure that the next time the result will not contradict it.’ —Stephen Hawking, Brief History of Time, p.10.].
What Professor Pera says correctly is: Cosmology [origins theories] * is always revisable. It might then some day be shown to need revision, even admittance of being wrong. Therefore, how in God’s name can the Church place its hermeneutics at the mercy of change, or to this:

‘Every so often, you have to unlearn what you thought you knew, and replace it by something more subtle. This process is what science is all about, and it never stops. It means that you shouldn’t take everything we say as gospel, either, for we belong to another equally honourable profession: liar-to-readers*.’—Pratchett, Stewart & Cohen, The Science of Discworld, p.39.

Denial of the traditional global flood then is but a legacy of Galileo’s hermeneutics, condemned in the seventeenth century by papal decree but ignored from 1741, alluded to favourably in Providentissimus Deus in 1893,again entered into by Pius XII in 1940 in his infamous Big Bang is evidence of Creation remark, condemned again in this pope’s humani Generis, reintroduced in an extreme way by Vatican II wherein the hermeneutics of tradition and the 17th century was actually condemned as troublemaking, and finally taken to it full extreme by the existentialist mystic and phenomenologist Karol Wojtyla, Pope John Paul II (1978-2005), ‘the Copernican Cannon’ as he used to call himself when bishop of Krakow.
[/quote]

 

[grannymh]

Those who are interested in Catholic teaching about Scripture should check
Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition,
ISBN: 1-57455-109-4

paragraphs 101 -141.

Taking a couple of sentences out of context distorts the teaching and leads to the unfortunate confusion so often seen. Please read all the information.

This is the website link to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition,

www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

If one wishes, one can put words like “Scripture” “Noah” etc., into the search box for the Catechism. Scroll down to find the search box.

Again, it is important to read the whole context or the whole section without personal bias.

Blessings,
granny

These two websites contain TV ads about Catholicism. The first is from one of the Dioceses which is using them. The second is general information.

 

[juliamajor]

Absolutely 100% correct twinc, but you are up against the one heresy that seemingly has no way out, a false epistemology born out of the Copernican heresy, the so-called autonomy of science:

Let me quote Professor of Philosophy Marcello Pera:

The conclusion is that, at least on some important points, science and Catholic religion are in conflict.
One might object that this conflict concerns the relationship between truths of faith and scientific hypotheses, not scientific truths. But the objection is untenable. Firstly because, according to a more adequate epistemology than Pius XII’s [Big Bang=God’s Creation], all scientific truths are hypothetical; >
‘Any physical theory is always provisional in the sense that it is only a hypothesis: you can never prove it. No matter how many times the results of experiments agree with some theory, you can never be sure that the next time the result will not contradict it.’ —Stephen Hawking, Brief History of Time, p.10.].
What Professor Pera says correctly is: Cosmology [origins theories] * is always revisable. It might then some day be shown to need revision, even admittance of being wrong. Therefore, how in God’s name can the Church place its hermeneutics at the mercy of change, or to this:

‘Every so often, you have to unlearn what you thought you knew, and replace it by something more subtle. This process is what science is all about, and it never stops. It means that you shouldn’t take everything we say as gospel, either, for we belong to another equally honourable profession: liar-to-readers*.’—Pratchett, Stewart & Cohen, The Science of Discworld, p.39.

Denial of the traditional global flood then is but a legacy of Galileo’s hermeneutics, condemned in the seventeenth century by papal decree but ignored from 1741, alluded to favourably in Providentissimus Deus in 1893,again entered into by Pius XII in 1940 in his infamous Big Bang is evidence of Creation remark, condemned again in this pope’s humani Generis, reintroduced in an extreme way by Vatican II wherein the hermeneutics of tradition and the 17th century was actually condemned as troublemaking, and finally taken to it full extreme by the existentialist mystic and phenomenologist Karol Wojtyla, Pope John Paul II (1978-2005), ‘the Copernican Cannon’ as he used to call himself when bishop of Krakow.
’
Oh, here we go again.All the evils in the world are due to the Copernican"theory".Yep ,we’ve heard this all before!Incessantly,obssessively!

 

[twinc]

’
Oh, here we go again.All the evils in the world are due to the Copernican"theory".Yep ,we’ve heard this all before!Incessantly,obssessively!

but obviously to no avail “for as it was in the days of Noah,so shall it be” - twinc

 

[StAnastasia]

here as elsewhere we have error upon error and confusion upon confusion for God as author of the Bible knew all about and exactly the world He had created - we are not all descended from Noah and his wife because his three sons had wives that were not his daughters - there were it seems only 127 kinds of animals - the ARK according to experts was perfectly designed to be unsinkable and withstand not just a local flood but a global one - there probably were some seeds and plants that survived in spite of the flood - neither Mt.Everest or other very high mountains,it seems existed before the flood - there were no continents before the flood for the earth was one landmass - btw if local flood/s it seems God has broken His promise many times[Gen.9:15 - twinc

Twinc, I encourage you to get thyself to a university and take a course in basic logic. If all humans are descended from the people on board the ark, all humans are descended from the mythical Noah!

As for your other scientific claims, you will be hard pressed to make the case to geologists that Mt. Everest and the Himalayan Mountain range have not been in existence for millions of years before the mythical “Noah” came on the scene. In fact, why don’t you make your case to the American Geological Society at their next convention? Or do you tremble at the thought of making your argument before people who actually know something about science?

StAnastasia

What ultimately formed Mt. Everest, about 60 million years ago, was the rapid movement of India northward toward the continent of EuroAsia; Click here for a present-day map of the Indian subcontinent. India charged across the equator at rates of up to 15 cm/year, in the process closing an ocean named Tethys that had separated fragments of Pangea. This ocean is entirely gone today, although the sedimentary rocks that settled on its ocean floor and the volcanoes that fringed its edges remain to tell the tale of its existence.

pbs.org/wgbh/nova/everest/earth/birth.html
[/quote]

 

[StAnastasia]

Absolutely 100% correct twinc, but you are up against the one heresy that seemingly has no way out, a false epistemology born out of the Copernican heresy, the so-called autonomy of science:

Cassini, remember, in order to convince any but the scientifically untutored, you will have to go outside of online fora and present your case vigorously to the astronomical community.

 

[grannymh]

Since everyone has presented their opinions, this is my last post on this thread.

Those who are interested in Catholic teaching about Scripture should check
Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition,
ISBN: 1-57455-109-4 – paragraphs 101 -141.

Taking a couple of sentences out of context distorts the teaching and leads to the unfortunate confusion so often seen. Please read all the information.

To find Catholic teaching about Scripture, Noah, and God on the web, use this website link to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

Scroll down to find the search box. If one wishes, one can put words like “Scripture” “Noah” “God” etc., into the search box for the Catechism. Because a single search word is being used, it is very important to read the paragraphs above and below to understand the full Catholic teaching.

Again, it is important to read all the citations, the complete context or the whole section without personal bias.

Blessings,
granny

These two websites contain TV ads about Catholicism. The first is from one of the Dioceses which is using them. The second is general information.

www.CatholicsComeHomeRockford.org
www.CatholicsComeHome.org

 

[cassini]

’
Oh, here we go again.All the evils in the world are due to the Copernican"theory".Yep ,we’ve heard this all before!Incessantly,obssessively!

And again, nothing more that rhetoric. Why don’t you try to show me where I go wrong juliamajor.

 

[twinc]

Twinc, I encourage you to get thyself to a university and take a course in basic logic. If all humans are descended from the people on board the ark, all humans are descended from the mythical Noah!

As for your other scientific claims, you will be hard pressed to make the case to geologists that Mt. Everest and the Himalayan Mountain range have not been in existence for millions of years before the mythical “Noah” came on the scene. In fact, why don’t you make your case to the American Geological Society at their next convention? Or do you tremble at the thought of making your argument before people who actually know something about science?

StAnastasia

What ultimately formed Mt. Everest, about 60 million years ago, was the rapid movement of India northward toward the continent of EuroAsia; Click here for a present-day map of the Indian subcontinent. India charged across the equator at rates of up to 15 cm/year, in the process closing an ocean named Tethys that had separated fragments of Pangea. This ocean is entirely gone today, although the sedimentary rocks that settled on its ocean floor and the volcanoes that fringed its edges remain to tell the tale of its existence.

pbs.org/wgbh/nova/everest/earth/birth.html

here we go again - we are all descended from Adam and Eve not from Noah and his wife - there is a difference that some can see and others not - btw the people that really know about creation science have made there case to "Geological societies"whose members were not there whilst the creation society founder member and creator was,Mt Everest,it seems,was as a result and follow on to the global cataclysm and not just a teeny weeny local puddle of a flood and falls neatly into the appx 10,000years since the creation of the earth - btw watch for my coming post “Is today’s [pseudo]Science True” - twinc

 

[cassini]

Cassini, remember, in order to convince any but the scientifically untutored, you will have to go outside of online fora and present your case vigorously to the astronomical community.

The LAST people I try to convince StA are the science dogmatists that now prevail within the Catholic faith, right up to the papacy. It is ironic that you now find yourselves in conflict with Stephen Hawking, a hero of yours no doubt, with another Copernican Professor Pera (google in to see his credentials), and those science/science fiction writers Pratchett, Stewart & Cohen.
I now write to support those that might be neutral or those who know the so-called cosmological, uniformitarian and evolutionary ‘proofs’ are no proofs at all like twinc here.
That said, I have no intention of stepping back and letting science steal the Catholic faith from anyone anymore if I can help it. I will continue to repeat what even your own know, all the above sciences are hypothetical and as such cannot be used to overturn traditional understandings of Scripture. Indeed Christians would be better being Protestants in this area, for they lead the way in falsifying the claims of the three sciences named above, taking up the vacuum created when Catholics gave up the ghost in 1741.

 

[edwest2]

Here is what the Catholic Encyclopedia has to say:

catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=8506

While going to Catholic school in the 1960s, I had no reason to believe the flood was not global and that the ark held all of the animals that should repopulate the earth. Divine revelation is trustworthy, the interpretations of science are not very applicable, since science, I am told, is silent about God and the supernatural. A scientist standing next to Jesus when He raised the dead or gave sight to the blind or instantly restored a man’s withered arm in the sight of many would have no data, no explanation, no artifacts such as men use today to point to.

Peace,
Ed

 

[PeterClatworthy]

“In the Druidic order indeed centered, and from it radiated to the whole world, civil and ecclesiastical knowledge of the realm: they were its statesmen, legislators, priests, physicians, lawyers, teachers, poets; the depositories of all human and divine knowledge; its Churches and parliament; its courts of law; its college of physicians and surgeons; its magistrates, clergy and bishops.” (SOURCE: St. Paul in Britain, Rev’d R. W. Morgan: 1860)

 

[juliamajor]

And again, nothing more that rhetoric. Why don’t you try to show me where I go wrong juliamajor.

You have yet to show me anything that is not a hundred years or older.

 

[cassini]

You have yet to show me anything that is not a hundred years or older.

julia, how can you expect anyone to take your contribution seriously with one liners like this. Here we are discussing Noah’s flood and you give an answer like above. Obviously you have no answers to my thesis.

 

[StAnastasia]

While going to Catholic school in the 1960s, I had no reason to believe the flood was not global and that the ark held all of the animals that should repopulate the earth. Divine revelation is trustworthy, the interpretations of science are not very applicable, since science, I am told, is silent about God and the supernatural. A scientist standing next to Jesus when He raised the dead or gave sight to the blind or instantly restored a man’s withered arm in the sight of many would have no data, no explanation, no artifacts such as men use today to point to.

Ed. I’m teaching a seminary course in a different this week, and have limited access to a computer. Let me just say that I too attended Catholic school in the 1960s, and I was never taught anything other than that the Genesis 6 flood was a story to be interpreted symbolically and theologically, rather than literally.

StAnastasia

Peace,
Ed

 

[StAnastasia]

While going to Catholic school in the 1960s, I had no reason to believe the flood was not global and that the ark held all of the animals that should repopulate the earth. Divine revelation is trustworthy, the interpretations of science are not very applicable, since science, I am told, is silent about God and the supernatural. A scientist standing next to Jesus when He raised the dead or gave sight to the blind or instantly restored a man’s withered arm in the sight of many would have no data, no explanation, no artifacts such as men use today to point to.
Peace,
Ed

Ed. I’m teaching a seminary course in a different this week, and have limited access to a computer. Let me just say that I too attended Catholic school in the 1960s, and I was never taught anything other than that the Genesis 6 flood was a story to be interpreted symbolically and theologically, rather than literally.

StAnastasia