New Pastor Making Changes in Mass

[THurifer2]

Our new pastor (he arrived in August) has been making some changes in the Mass. I would appreciate any information as to if these changes are within his rights to make. My research seems to back up my feeling that some of the changes are not appropriate, but I don’t have enough information.

The two of the most concern:

1. He has begun introducing each reading with several minutes of explanation as to the nature of the reading.
2. He has replaced the metal vessels used by our Eucharistic Ministers to distribute the consecrated wine with glass ones.

I realize that pastors do have authority to make small changes within the Mass at their discretion, but how far does that right extend?

If this happened in my parish i would assume it is a preist putting his liberal stamp on things.

RS 117 Chalices, flagons and ciboriums made of glass that can break or chip easily are not in accord with the established norms. Cf 117.)

I completely amazes me as the WHY WHY WHY people want to use glass…especially when they are told not to . TO me it is a the stamp of protest in disobedience.

 

[pprimeau1976]

If this happened in my parish i would assume it is a preist putting his liberal stamp on things.

RS 117 Chalices, flagons and ciboriums made of glass that can break or chip easily are not in accord with the established norms. Cf 117.)

I completely amazes me as the WHY WHY WHY people want to use glass…especially when they are told not to . TO me it is a the stamp of protest in disobedience.

Because they claim that the glass cannot break and thus is acceptable. But, there is no such thing as unbreakable glass. And to me, a Corningware chalice is not appropriate for worship.

Just a footnote, Corningware normally doesn’t break when dropped, but if you drop it on a tiled or marble floor, it does.

 

[Brendan]

Because they claim that the glass cannot break and thus is acceptable. But, there is no such thing as unbreakable glass. And to me, a Corningware chalice is not appropriate for worship.

Just a footnote, Corningware normally doesn’t break when dropped, but if you drop it on a tiled or marble floor, it does.

If they claim that it is not breakable, offer to test it.

Hold it at chest height ( standard height for an MHC about to offer the chalice to someone) then drop on on a marble\concrete floor.

If they honestly believe that it’s not breakable, then the person should have no objection to this simple test.

 

[grandfather]

If this happened in my parish i would assume it is a preist putting his liberal stamp on things.

RS 117 Chalices, flagons and ciboriums made of glass that can break or chip easily are not in accord with the established norms. Cf 117.)

I completely amazes me as the WHY WHY WHY people want to use glass…especially when they are told not to . TO me it is a the stamp of protest in disobedience.

Choice of chalices is one aspect of a bigger movement. New churches are no longer beautiful, but plain. They look like warehouses. The music is no different from what you would hear at a dance. Vestments look like nightgowns. The movement is to desacralize. It is to mix the sacred and profane. Whether a glass is crystal or not is immaterial. It looks like a glass of wine you would see in a restaurant on a table. A real chalice is only found in one place, on an altar. It is unmistakeable. There is no confusion. Thankfully the tide has turned and there is a movement to recover what was lost and rebuild Catholic worship and culture, that was torn down by our own clergy and their assistants over the past several decades.

 

[pprimeau1976]

Choice of chalices is one aspect of a bigger movement. New churches are no longer beautiful, but plain. They look like warehouses. The music is no different from what you would hear at a dance. Vestments look like nightgowns. The movement is to desacralize. It is to mix the sacred and profane. Whether a glass is crystal or not is immaterial. It looks like a glass of wine you would see in a restaurant on a table. A real chalice is only found in one place, on an altar. It is unmistakeable. There is no confusion. Thankfully the tide has turned and there is a movement to recover what was lost and rebuild Catholic worship and culture, that was torn down by our own clergy and their assistants over the past several decades.

I think alot of it had to do with poor planning/cultural changes as well. The logic at the parish I grew up at (St. Pius X, Southgate) was to build a temporary church along with the school and eventually build a more grandiose permanent church. The temporary church would then be converted into the school gymnasium. As time went on though the goal of building a more grandiose Church faded *especially *in the 1970’s. Around 1974, the church was remodeled as if Mike Brady was the architect.:bigyikes: It was remodeled yet again in the 90’s and then again around 2002 (not sure of the last date). This is not unique to my former parish though. Other churches in the area have undergone similar remodelings. Does anyone think to remodel churches of a more classical design?

 

[peary]

Our new pastor (he arrived in August) has been making some changes in the Mass. I would appreciate any information as to if these changes are within his rights to make. My research seems to back up my feeling that some of the changes are not appropriate, but I don’t have enough information.

The two of the most concern:

1. He has begun introducing each reading with several minutes of explanation as to the nature of the reading.
2. He has replaced the metal vessels used by our Eucharistic Ministers to distribute the consecrated wine with glass ones.

I realize that pastors do have authority to make small changes within the Mass at their discretion, but how far does that right extend?

It isn’t necessary to explain the nature of the readings, but there is nothing wrong with it. However, glass or other breakable objects are forbidden to be used at Mass for distribution of Communion.

 

[Sabda]

I think alot of it had to do with poor planning/cultural changes as well. The logic at the parish I grew up at (St. Pius X, Southgate) was to build a temporary church along with the school and eventually build a more grandiose permanent church. The temporary church would then be converted into the school gymnasium. As time went on though the goal of building a more grandiose Church faded *especially *in the 1970’s. Around 1974, the church was remodeled as if Mike Brady was the architect.:bigyikes: It was remodeled yet again in the 90’s and then again around 2002 (not sure of the last date). This is not unique to my former parish though. Other churches in the area have undergone similar remodelings. Does anyone think to remodel churches of a more classical design?

Yes, they do. Our parish was built in 1907 and is a small gothic type style building. We are currently remodeling it. We stripped everything out and have started from scratch on the inside. It’s slowly coming along. It under changes after Vatican II into a more 70s style building. That tacky wood paneling and ugly carpet. All of that has been stripped out and the inside has been painted a pretty golden color. There is now a circular raised area for the altar. I’m not sure about the floor yet. Father has a drawing of what the inside well look like. It will definitely be gothic.

Our cathedral is also undergoing a remodel. It was built in the 1920s. You can check there progress here.

 

[Wolseley]

I stand corrected. I meant to say that it is “probably” acrylic.

Bottom line here is, the authority of the Bishops to approve what is being used in their dioceses.

Jim

Why would the bishops want to approve of placing the Precious Blood of the Lord Jesus Christ into a plastic cup?

I mean, what’s next, using a cardboard cup from McDonald’s? It won’t shatter, either.

 

[Sabda]

Our cathedral is also undergoing a remodel. It was built in the 1920s. You can check there progress here.

I need to make a correction. The cathedral was built in 1914.

 

[Sir_Knight]

1. He has begun introducing each reading with several minutes of explanation as to the nature of the reading.

First of all, he should use the homily as the time to explain the Scripture readings. While it makes sense to prepare the congregation for the liturgy of the day (esp. if it’s a solemnity or feast or memorial, such as for a saint), but there’s no need to give “mini-homilies” throughout the Mass.

We have a retired Monsignor in our parish who does this. Sometimes he goes on & on with a longer explanation than the actually reading. But you know what, most people like it and find it very educational and informative. As a matter of fact, several months ago the parish stopped publishing which priests were saying which masses because his masses were much more attended than the other ones mostly because of these mini-homilies.

Amazing that some people will prefer something while others will not. I guess that is what makes us all individuals and difference while still being the same.

 

[Joannm]

I really do not understand the prohibition against glass chalices. I mean if you knock over a chalice, whether it is made of glass or metal, the contents will spill.

I know a priest who had a Waterford chalice that his parents bought him for his ordination The thing was magnificent and very thick and heavy. It must have cost a fortune. Of course he no longer uses it but what he uses now looks no way as beautiful as the Waterford one. Metal can tarnish, as have some of our chalices in the parish. We have to replace them every few years or send them out to be replated. I know very few priests who have chalices that are all precious metal. A few I know have silver ones which I think are nice. I don’t know anyone with a gold chalice…only plated ones which have to be refinished every so often.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I really do not understand the prohibition against glass chalices. I mean if you knock over a chalice, whether it is made of glass or metal, the contents will spill.

I know a priest who had a Waterford chalice that his parents bought him for his ordination The thing was magnificent and very thick and heavy. It must have cost a fortune. Of course he no longer uses it but what he uses now looks no way as beautiful as the Waterford one. Metal can tarnish, as have some of our chalices in the parish. We have to replace them every few years or send them out to be replated. I know very few priests who have chalices that are all precious metal. A few I know have silver ones which I think are nice. I don’t know anyone with a gold chalice…only plated ones which have to be refinished every so often.

I think it has to do with the effect of glass breaking, verses just a spill. Think about wiping up just wine, verses wine with glass in it.

Jim

 

[Sir_Knight]

Exactly. All of the blood needs to be properly disposed of. When you have tiny drops on small pieces of broken glass, the process becomes much, much more complicated.

 

[THurifer2]

I have had people tell me they don’t understand…Its just no big deal to have glass cups.

My response is…if its not big deal then why not CONFORM.

Its not the glass that is the issue…it is PRIDE.

 

[buffalo]

I have had people tell me they don’t understand…Its just no big deal to have glass cups.

My response is…if its not big deal then why not CONFORM.

Its not the glass that is the issue…it is PRIDE.

Bingo! I hear all the time - the rules are man-made they are no big deal. Well if they are no big deal then just follow them and erveryone else will be happy.

 

[Dietrich]

The logic at the parish I grew up at (St. Pius X, Southgate) was to build a temporary church along with the school and eventually build a more grandiose permanent church. The temporary church would then be converted into the school gymnasium. As time went on though the goal of building a more grandiose Church faded *especially *in the 1970’s. Around 1974, the church was remodeled as if Mike Brady was the architect.:

That’s interesting…it’s the same story at the parish I grew up in in NW Washington. It looks like an enormous shoebox. I’ve often thought that I hadn’t seen such an uninspired building that was meant to inspire built on such a large scale before. I always heard it was supposed to be a gym, a role for which it is perfectly suited.

As to the materials to use for sacred vessels, no one has brought up another reason that gold is most commonly used in chalices. You wine aficionados out there, you know how when you’re judging different aspects of a glass of wine, you swirl it in the glass to determine it’s ‘legs’? Meaning, how viscous is the wine, how long does it take for it to slowly subside into the bottom of the vessel? Well, apparently gold is a much smoother surface on the microscopic level than glass, and liquids do not attach themselves as readily as they do in glass. Thus, when talking about purificating the vessels after Mass, there is less of a chance that you’ll miss even the slightest drop of the Blood if you’re using gold (I don’t know the properties of other metals in this regard, or acrylic for that matter).

I agree with the other statements regarding the need to know that the vessel containing our Lord be unmistakably different in nature to something we could scoop up at BevMo. A leaky, rusty bucket can be used to transport a liquid, but we draw a line at the insufficient or ordinary when speaking of the vessel that contains, actually, our Lord.

I think that in some cases it’s a misguided attempt to de-mystify the mysterious in an attempt to appeal to would-be converts and Catholics unschooled in their faith, a way of coming down to our level so we don’t feel as fenced-off from God. Of course, that’s just my own little opinion, but I keep seeing confirmation of that in a variety of ways, from vestments, to priests/nuns not wearing their religious garb, to altar girls, the abuse of extraordinary ministers, etc.

As someone said it here, if the rules are no big deal to those who would bend them, then why not just follow them? Why strive so hard to come up with the next song-and-dance Mass/puppet show when you could get to work and give people solid instruction as to WHY these rules are in place? Sometimes the Church does a lousy job explaining Herself and then loses people because it all gets so confusing and ever-changing.

 

[benedictgal]

I really do not understand the prohibition against glass chalices. I mean if you knock over a chalice, whether it is made of glass or metal, the contents will spill.

I know a priest who had a Waterford chalice that his parents bought him for his ordination The thing was magnificent and very thick and heavy. It must have cost a fortune. Of course he no longer uses it but what he uses now looks no way as beautiful as the Waterford one. Metal can tarnish, as have some of our chalices in the parish. We have to replace them every few years or send them out to be replated. I know very few priests who have chalices that are all precious metal. A few I know have silver ones which I think are nice. I don’t know anyone with a gold chalice…only plated ones which have to be refinished every so often.

The Precious Blood deserves to be contained in something noble and beautiful. Glass breaks, no matter how good it is.

Please read this from Redemptionis Sacramentum:

[117.] Sacred vessels for containing the Body and Blood of the Lord must be made in strict conformity with the norms of tradition and of the liturgical books.205 The Bishops’ Conferences have the faculty to decide whether it is appropriate, once their decisions have been given the recognitio by the Apostolic See, for sacred vessels to be made of other solid materials as well. It is strictly required, however, that such materials be truly noble in the common estimation within a given region,206 so that honor will be given to the Lord by their use, and all risk of diminishing the doctrine of the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharistic species in the eyes of the faithful will be avoided. Reprobated, therefore, is any practice of using for the celebration of Mass common vessels, or others lacking in quality, or devoid of all artistic merit or which are mere containers, as also other vessels made from glass, earthenware, clay, or other materials that break easily.

It used to be that when directives came from the Holy See, they were followed without question. Maybe because we are Americans and are used to questioning everything we seem to not trust those in authority. Nonetheless, Peter has spoken and the answer is no.

 

[grandfather]

I have had people tell me they don’t understand…Its just no big deal to have glass cups.

My response is…if its not big deal then why not CONFORM.

Its not the glass that is the issue…it is PRIDE.

Why not clay chalices made by a potter? Why not tin cups? How about styrofoam? They don’t break and some artist could make a nice one. We could put His Body in a beautiful handmade straw basket, It would look like a real bread basket. Very beautiful, no?

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

Just to bring together what other posters have been saying re: chalices, the prohibition on glass really stems from a confluence of two different concerns, not just one or another. First off, very few of the glass chalices I have seen would ever be considered noble; but in the case of some very nice crystal ones where people could truly recognize that the church had put a serious investment into a fitting vessel for Christ, there are still the issues surrounding fragility/breakage. On the other hand, what are the odds of some “unbreakable glass” actually being considered a noble material in which to contain the Lord? While either criterion (nobility or sturdiness) leaves some theoretically possible wiggle room at one end, applying both together shows why glass is never permitted.

BTW - just because one is a bishop does not mean one can issue guidelines permitting practices that are universally reprobated.

 

[buffalo]

Noble Metals

Precious metal

A precious metal is a rare metallic chemical element of high economic value. Chemically, the precious metals are less reactive than most elements, have high luster, are softer or more ductile, and have higher melting points than other metals. Historically, precious metals were important as currency, but are now regarded mainly as investment and industrial commodities. Gold, silver, platinum and palladium each have an ISO 4217 currency code.
The best-known precious metals are gold and silver. While both have industrial uses, they are better known for their uses in art, jewellery and coinage. Other precious metals include the platinum group metals: ruthenium, rhodium, palladium, osmium, iridium and platinum, of which platinum is the most widely traded. Rhenium is a precious metal that is not part of the platinum group or one of the traditional precious metals.