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Vixit
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I’m curious if, say, St. Pius X had made the change, if anyone would have any problem with it?
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FrancisB
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There’s not a change that has ever been made in the church or outside it with which someone didn’t find a problem. So yes, even if St. Pius X had made the changes someone would be complaining. Others would say that it’s a matter of private devotion and that there is no reason to worry, since it does not contradict the Catholic faith. This isn’t an issue with John Paul II. It’s an issue about whether or not things can or should be changed compounded with an idea of the rosary that seems to view it as a matter of public liturgy. Nevermind the fact that it’s not public liturgy or the fact that the practice of reciting prayers on prayer beads pre-dates the rosary by centuries, or the fact that the mysteries weren’t even a part of the rosary when it was first revealed to St. Dominic. In some people’s minds it seems, the rosary was delivered to us by our Lady in its traditional form without any development of it over time. And because of that and the fact that the rosary is an important set of prayers, it must naturally follow that it is unchanging and unchangeable. To try to apply logic to an argument that is built on the rejection of facts is futile.
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NeedImprovement
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Maybe we should mind . I would think it could be (I really don’t mean this as a pun) elucidating if we were all to know a little more about the form of the rosary first given to St. Dominic. Can you give us a terse rundown with maybe a souce or two FrancisB ? I think that would be extremely helpful to all of us… would help squeeze a few more doubts out of the picture.
Thanks in advance if you can .
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FrancisB
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There’s a wonderful background on the history of the rosary at: newadvent.org/cathen/13184b.htm and another great article here: chanttherosary.com/rosary-history/ and yet another here: personalizedrosaries.com/history.html
St. Pius V, himself a Dominican, was responsible for establishing the Rosary in the form in which it was known for several centuries, until the Fatima prayers were added (I’m sure with much grumbling from those at the time who were sceptical of the apparitions). Even the “Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death” part of the Ave Maria was part of the original prayers and variations on it existed long enough to be recorded. A personal favourite of mine is “Holy Mary, Queen of Heaven, sweet and faithful, O Mother of God, pray for us that with the elect we may look upon you.” (Sancta Maria, Regina Coeli,dulcis et pia, O Mater Dei. Ora pro nobis ut cum electis te videamus.)
The bottom line is that it’s a private devotion, and as long as the prayers that are said and the mysteries that are meditated upon are in keeping with the Catholic faith, I don’t know how any Catholic could possibly criticise it. I personally prefer to chant the Rosary aloud in Latin according to the Gregorian melodies while I mediate in English (I wish I were fluent enough to think in Latin rather than translating into it and out of it, but I’m not). I would never condemn someone for speaking the prayers in the vernacular, though, or for praying it silently in their head. I used to do that on the school bus on the way to school, using my fingers instead of beads. I’m sure someone will find flaw in not holding an actual physical set of beads as well, but I figured that it was better than not praying the rosary and avoided the distractions caused by taking rosary beads out on a school bus.
St. Pius V, himself a Dominican, was responsible for establishing the Rosary in the form in which it was known for several centuries, until the Fatima prayers were added (I’m sure with much grumbling from those at the time who were sceptical of the apparitions). Even the “Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death” part of the Ave Maria was part of the original prayers and variations on it existed long enough to be recorded. A personal favourite of mine is “Holy Mary, Queen of Heaven, sweet and faithful, O Mother of God, pray for us that with the elect we may look upon you.” (Sancta Maria, Regina Coeli,dulcis et pia, O Mater Dei. Ora pro nobis ut cum electis te videamus.)
The bottom line is that it’s a private devotion, and as long as the prayers that are said and the mysteries that are meditated upon are in keeping with the Catholic faith, I don’t know how any Catholic could possibly criticise it. I personally prefer to chant the Rosary aloud in Latin according to the Gregorian melodies while I mediate in English (I wish I were fluent enough to think in Latin rather than translating into it and out of it, but I’m not). I would never condemn someone for speaking the prayers in the vernacular, though, or for praying it silently in their head. I used to do that on the school bus on the way to school, using my fingers instead of beads. I’m sure someone will find flaw in not holding an actual physical set of beads as well, but I figured that it was better than not praying the rosary and avoided the distractions caused by taking rosary beads out on a school bus.
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ElizabethPH
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I’ve got a question, I looked through your links and couldn’t find the answer. When you mentioned the Hail Holy Queen; I was reminded that a couple weeks ago the person sitting next to me at Mass during the rosary before Mass asked me when they added the Hail Holy Queen. I said it always had the Hail Holy Queen as far as I can remember. I was thinking that perhaps not everyone prays it because they don’t have it memorized and that’s why she never heard it growing up.
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NeedImprovement
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An excerpt from the New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia article link provided in the previous post (# 63) by FrancisB :
“…On the other hand, the practice of meditating on certain definite mysteries, which has been rightly described as the very essence of the Rosary devotion, seems to have only arisen long after the date of St. Dominic’s death. It is difficult to prove a negative, but Father T. Esser, O.P., has shown (in the periodical “Der Katholik”, of Mainz, Oct., Nov., Dec., 1897) that the introduction of this meditation during the recitation of the Aves was rightly attributed to a certain Carthusian, Dominic the Prussian. It is in any case certain that at the close of the fifteenth century the utmost possible variety of methods of meditating prevailed, and that the fifteen mysteries now generally accepted were not uniformly adhered to even by the Dominicans themselves.”
“…On the other hand, the practice of meditating on certain definite mysteries, which has been rightly described as the very essence of the Rosary devotion, seems to have only arisen long after the date of St. Dominic’s death. It is difficult to prove a negative, but Father T. Esser, O.P., has shown (in the periodical “Der Katholik”, of Mainz, Oct., Nov., Dec., 1897) that the introduction of this meditation during the recitation of the Aves was rightly attributed to a certain Carthusian, Dominic the Prussian. It is in any case certain that at the close of the fifteenth century the utmost possible variety of methods of meditating prevailed, and that the fifteen mysteries now generally accepted were not uniformly adhered to even by the Dominicans themselves.”
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NeedImprovement
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I don’t know if this is the only answer for the Hail Holy Queen’s origins, but I found it here . There appears to be a typo. I think where “disupted” appears, the word “disputed” is intended.
"Hail Holy Queen (Salve Regina)
The origin of the prayer is disupted between Petrus of Monsoro (d. about 1000), Bishop of Compostella, and Adhémar, Bishop of Podium, the first to answer the call to a Crusade. It was definitely popularized and set in its current form by Bernard of Clairvaux and the Abbey of Cluny in the 12th century. From that time, it has enjoyed wide liturgical use from the Mass to the Divine Office."
"Hail Holy Queen (Salve Regina)
The origin of the prayer is disupted between Petrus of Monsoro (d. about 1000), Bishop of Compostella, and Adhémar, Bishop of Podium, the first to answer the call to a Crusade. It was definitely popularized and set in its current form by Bernard of Clairvaux and the Abbey of Cluny in the 12th century. From that time, it has enjoyed wide liturgical use from the Mass to the Divine Office."
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Hesychios
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This is a particular equivalent to the ‘KJV1611 onlyism’ type of phenomenon, except it’s among Catholics. The Bible didn’t drop out of the sky in the king’s English and the rosary didn’t come from heaven in the form we know it today.
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FrancisB
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I agree with you whole heartedly. It seems that some people, seeing that change can bring about things that are wrong, seeks to keep any change from happening, just in case that change is bad. Whereas a reasonable approach would be to judge each innovation by its own merits and see if it is worthy of use or not.
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SHoJ
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AMEN! Because the rosary has developed throughout the ages, I don’t mind that Pope John Paul II introduced the Luminous mysteries as well as why I pray them.
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Aramis
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Wrong. St Dominic codifies the local praxis for the rosary into what we know call the Marian Rosary, so called for its Marian devotion; properly it’s the Dominican Rosary, after it’s founder. The term itself predates the 5-decade+5 form.
The Marian aparitions, which none are required to believe, are not the institution of it, but the call to spread it.
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ac_claire
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To answer the OP, I do pray the Luminous Mysteries. My husband, who has more traditional leanings than I do (although we both consider ourselves “traditional Catholics”) doesn’t really like them or like to pray them.
My grandma taught me the 3 original sets of mysteries so I have a preference for them, but I love the Luminous as well. While I understand preferring the traditional 15 mysteries, I truly don’t get being “anti”- Luminous mysteries. What’s there not to like?? They’re all from the Gospels and just like the other mysteries, are parts of Christ’s life.
My grandma taught me the 3 original sets of mysteries so I have a preference for them, but I love the Luminous as well. While I understand preferring the traditional 15 mysteries, I truly don’t get being “anti”- Luminous mysteries. What’s there not to like?? They’re all from the Gospels and just like the other mysteries, are parts of Christ’s life.
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Shin
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Why not just add five more and meditate on them too? And perhaps five more?
From the Gospels… and Jesus’s life…
And so on?
From the Gospels… and Jesus’s life…
And so on?
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StTommyMore
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You cant argue about wat has been done based on what might (and probably won’t) happen. But at the same time, I can not think of a single reason why meditating on even more of Jesus’s life would be a bad thing. I mean we are CHRISTians, are we not? Is our faith not Chirstocentric? The line of argument you put forth I find quite disturbing.
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Crumpy
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Yes!
there is nothing binding, that I am aware of, that requires a Catholic to ever pray the rosary.
My difficulty with the Luminous Mysteries was remembering them in the usual order. It helped me to buy a rosary guide book from a Catholic Book store for about $1.50, with pictures.
These came out just when I was very inspired by the account of the Baptism of the Lord in the Jordan, as told in the gospels.
JPII’s emphasis was on the luminosity of this event, demonstrating something important about Jesus. There are profound ideas in Jesus’ baptism.
I don’t believe that anybody should be upset about these, as these are purely positive, for inspiration and meditation.
The significance of the number 150 is shallow. I don’t see any corresponding, except for the number, in the traditional rosary.
I read that the rosary was originally composed of Our Fathers, not hail Marys.
I think that the rosary locks people into a mindset that is too restrictive for prayer. There are many themes of prayer. The Psaltry itself is considered by many to be the official prayerbook of the Church – 150 psalms that focus ultimately on praise and worship of God. My head is in that space.
The rosary is a medievil invention and not apostolic in origin.It is devotional, granted, but too restrictive in many ways. The Psaltry is divinely inspired, without equal.
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Aramis
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Certain subgroups, however, must, with varying frequencies.
Knights of Columbus. - “Often” - part of the promises of joining the first degree.
Legion of Mary - it’s part of their normal meeting praxis.
Those clerics whose superiors require it as part of the public praxis, or who are indulted by their ordinary to substitute it for their canonical requirement for the hours.
Those religious whose rule or superiors require it, including the Dominican Orders.
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Vixit
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Agreed. I’m sure you’ve been asked before, but what does your signature mean?
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PioKolby
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In our home we used to pray the luminous mysteries. We stopped. This goes to discernment. Clearly the Mass,language,doctrine and dress inside the Church is not what it was before say 1955 or so. This change to the Rosary reflects the fact that in many places in the Church we have two Religions. It is not logical to say the Worship,tone and language along with the doctrine of the Church is different than what it was before( WHICH IT CLEARLY IS) but at the same time to say this is the same Religion.Everything can’t be the same and different at the same time.2&2=4 Changing the Rosary is just that a change. Many people like me under 35 embraced the Faith BECAUSE it is true and unchanging. We look for unity in Christ! Stability in Dogma,doctrine, liturgy and yes devotions like the rosary.
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simple_soul
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*Dear PioKolby,
If we are truly looking for unity in Christ, then I pray we try and use our discernment to figure out how we can learn to trust our Apostolic Leaders in their leadership and guidance regarding matters of faith and morals. Instead of coming up with excuses so that we can justify dissenting from them because we believe we know better than them regarding what is good for our souls. The one thing that I believe I am beginning to understand is that as our love for God grows this flame needs to be fueled. Other wise, it will sputter and die out within us. Our Apostolic Leaders show us the fuel we need. We need only to open our hearts, minds and souls in trust and accept what we do not believe we need.
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PioKolby
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Thank you for your words. Respect and obedience due to all the hierarchy of Holy Mother Church is not lacking here. Pope John Paul II did not say Catholics who pray the rosary must pray these mysteries. He offered them and proposed them. I in respect and charity say no thank you. Remember the hierarchy is bound by the truth in Faith and Morals and while we must always show proper respect to the hierarchy we must not follow errors that some of the hierarchy have introduced into the Church which are new and not apart of the the deposit of Faith and are against our sense of faith.In a word obedience to the Church does not extend to heresy. Is the change to the rosary heresy? No it’s not.That doesn’t mean it should have been done. Words matter charity was changed to love. The Holy sacrifice of the Mass was changed to the celebration of the Eucharist. The Rosary traditionally was one thing now it is something new. Given we live in a wicked age many souls have been seduced into the occult. One of the traps that souls have fell into is called illuminism which is Satanic and it also is a Philosophy that is anti Catholic in more ways that I can count. So calling the “new” mysteries luminous is problematic to those of us who understand how the Satanic enemies of the cross are working inside and outside the Church. Did John Paul II know about illuminism and how this could look? I don’t know. I will assume he didn’t and meant well. I view this mistake as just that a mistake like kissing the Koran. But I can’t commit intellectual suicide to make modernists “feel” better. So while I love and respect our Apostolic Leaders these things are in our faces. I see the wisdom in our Holy Father’s way of leadership. He is working to prevent a schism. I pray and work with him as an obedient son. I loved Pope John II. This love and loyalty doesn’t change the fact that 2&2=4 and we must face the fact that the doctrine,worship,language and thinking of Catholics in the Latin rite is not Catholic in many ways. No fingers need to be pointed. Everything can not be different and the same at the same time. 2&2=4
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