New Sanctuary Movement

[Contarini]

a criminal is someone who breaks the law .

But an unjust law is no law. The leaders both of the Catholic Church and of many other Christian churches in the United States have studied the issue and have concluded that the U.S. immigration laws are unjust. Faithful members of those churches should give their leaders the benefit of the doubt on this one.

It’s a question of loyalty: are you a Catholic first or an American first? Yes, I know that the U.S. bishops are not infallible. But neither is the U.S. government. You still owe far more obedience to your bishop than you do to the U.S. government. It shouldn’t even be a contest.

Edwin

 

[vern_humphrey]

But an unjust law is no law. The leaders both of the Catholic Church and of many other Christian churches in the United States have studied the issue and have concluded that the U.S. immigration laws are unjust. Faithful members of those churches should give their leaders the benefit of the doubt on this one.

What is unjust about establishing laws to regulate immigration and citizenship?

 

[Bob_Byrnes]

People who enter this country without the proper documentation are here illegally. It is what it is. They are illegal immigrants - though I notice the USCCB and Rome prefers to use the term:
‘immigrants in an irregular situation’ or 'migrants in an illegal situation".

As for feeding the hungry: of course we are to feed and care for anyone’s needs who come to ask it of us, but when the law catches up with someone who knowingly commits a crime then we aren’t supposed to interfere with justice. We can certainly go to the police station with them so they are not alone, we can be witnesses to their plight and make sure they don’t get abused while incarcerated, we can visit them when they are in prison, we can post their bail, we can offer to care for their families until the matter gets resolved. There are many other ways to meet our corporal works of mercy obligations without breaking the laws ourselves.

I just object to referring to a human being as an “illegal”. Morality and legality are not synonymous. Some things are immmoral and legal (sitting in the back of the bus) somethings are illegal and moral (trying to support your family as best you can). I guess the risk is possible deportation but it seems like a lot of hardworking people are willing to take the risk. My money is with the “family values” guy who takes the necessasry risks to feed his family.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I just object to referring to a human being as an “illegal”.

And you’re ordering the rest of us not to use that term?

Morality and legality are not synonymous.

Then why do you object to the use of a technically and legally accurate term?

Some things are immmoral and legal (sitting in the back of the bus) somethings are illegal and moral (trying to support your family as best you can).

And crossing into another country without a visa and violating its laws is both immoral and illegal.

 

[PauloFreire2]

The Sanctuary Movement is wrong. It’s hurting America.

 

[LRThunder]

But an unjust law is no law. The leaders both of the Catholic Church and of many other Christian churches in the United States have studied the issue and have concluded that the U.S. immigration laws are unjust. Faithful members of those churches should give their leaders the benefit of the doubt on this one.

It’s a question of loyalty: are you a Catholic first or an American first? Yes, I know that the U.S. bishops are not infallible. But neither is the U.S. government. You still owe far more obedience to your bishop than you do to the U.S. government. It shouldn’t even be a contest.

Edwin

But who’s to say the law is unjust? The Israelites thought the Roman taxes were unjust, but Jesus said to “render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar’s” and Paul talks about in Romans about submitting to government.

 

[YinYangMom]

But an unjust law is no law. The leaders both of the Catholic Church and of many other Christian churches in the United States have studied the issue and have concluded that the U.S. immigration laws are unjust. Faithful members of those churches should give their leaders the benefit of the doubt on this one.

Yes, they have studied the issues and in their wisdom have seen the flaws of the system. And yes, they are dutifully and rightfully working to change that system. Doing so within the law is totally appropriate and necessary.

In the meantime, however, until the current laws get replaced they are obliged to honor them as they do all citizens.

What is truly unjust isn’t the laws themselves - what is unjust is the government and authorities not enforcing the laws. Had they done so from the beginning we wouldn’t have as large a problem as we do now. Businesses and industries are blatantly breaking employment laws that are already there to protect workers. Where is the outcry from the bishops on that? That is my grievance with the bishops position: it does not address the real problem - greed and corruption on the part of our government and business leaders.

It’s a question of loyalty: are you a Catholic first or an American first?

No, the question is, are the bishops Catholic first? The Catechism states clearly that the ends cannot not justify the means. Harboring people who knowingly broke the law and with whom the authorities have caught up and are seeking to deport in order to prohibit justice being served is a means which is in violation of the law. The Catholic church cannot, in good conscience, endorse such an approach if they are putting the Church up on a pedestal as the guardian of Truth. To do so makes a liar of the Church, particularly the catechism.

 

[YinYangMom]

I guess the risk is possible deportation but it seems like a lot of hardworking people are willing to take the risk. My money is with the “family values” guy who takes the necessary risks to feed his family.

Right, I don’t even have a problem with those family members to make such difficult decisions and take that risk, but the second they act upon the decision they must be prepared to face the consequences of that action should the authorities catch up with them. To get caught and then cry ‘foul’ is chicken.

Even the sacrament of reconciliation contains the condition that we pay restitution for our sins. We can be forgiven, certainly, but we still have to pay the price for our actions.

We can forgive the person being deported. We can reach out to them by caring for the family members they leave behind, by paying for attorneys to help with the transition of being deported, but to stand between the person and the authorities as if an injustice was about to be served because this person is innocent would be a lie. I do not understand how the bishops could endorse a lie.

 

[Bob_Byrnes]

And you’re ordering the rest of us not to use that term?

Then why do you object to the use of a technically and legally accurate term?

And crossing into another country without a visa and violating its laws is both immoral and illegal.

I don’t have the right to “order” you to do anything. i just don’t like calling people who have broken a law “illegals”. Are speeders “illegals” ?

I object because it is a demeaning term.

I think crossing into another country without a visa is illegal but not immoral. It would be immoral to neglect to provide for your family.

 

[Contarini]

What is unjust about establishing laws to regulate immigration and citizenship?

When those laws get in the way of people’s basic human needs, they are unjust. When they prevent people from providing for their children, they are unjust. When they lead to the breakup of families, they are unjust.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

But who’s to say the law is unjust?

The Church through its ordinary magisterium. Cardinal Mahoney, for instance, has the right to make such a determination on behalf of the faithful in his diocese.

The Israelites thought the Roman taxes were unjust, but Jesus said to “render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar’s”

That can be interpreted to mean: don’t have idolatrous heathen money in the first place.

and Paul talks about in Romans about submitting to government.

He talks about submitting to divinely ordained authorities, of which the Church is the most important. Yes, it applies to civil governments as well. Some medieval two-sword theory would be helpful here! You are adopting the Protestant Reformers’ interpretation of this verse, which I believe to be one of the greatest errors of the Reformation.

In Christ,

Edwin

 

[vern_humphrey]

When those laws get in the way of people’s basic human needs, they are unjust. When they prevent people from providing for their children, they are unjust. When they lead to the breakup of families, they are unjust.

Edwin

The laws that get in the way of people’s basic rights are in their homelands, not here. They should stay home and work to make things better there.

We are serving as the relief valve for every tin-pot dictatorship in Latin America, and in the process not helping things in those lands.

 

[Bob_Byrnes]

When those laws get in the way of people’s basic human needs, they are unjust. When they prevent people from providing for their children, they are unjust. When they lead to the breakup of families, they are unjust.

Edwin

Right on !! I couldn’t agree more !

 

[LCMS_No_More]

The laws that get in the way of people’s basic rights are in their homelands, not here. They should stay home and work to make things better there.

We are serving as the relief valve for every tin-pot dictatorship in Latin America, and in the process not helping things in those lands.

Um…no. In the case of Mexico, it’s agricultural economy has been decimated by agribusiness corporations from the US going down to Mexico and basically taking over the corn market, putting family farmers out of business… Our corporations go down, rape the country and the people come up here because the opportunities in their country are basically gone…and we blame them.

Got it.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Um…no. In the case of Mexico, it’s agricultural economy has been decimated by agribusiness corporations from the US going down to Mexico and basically taking over the corn market, putting family farmers out of business… Our corporations go down, rape the country and the people come up here because the opportunities in their country are basically gone…and we blame them.

Got it.

Riiiight. There is no corruption in Mexico.

Got it.

 

[Bob_Byrnes]

Riiiight. There is no corruption in Mexico.

Got it.

Of course there’s corruption in Mexico. That’s another reason it’s tough to make a living there. When seven and eight year olds have to sell trinkets to tourists in places like Cuernavaca and Guanajuato and sleep under the tables where their mothers are trying to sell their crafts, you begin to understand why many of the fathers are risking their lives crossing dangerous borders to try to send some money home to their families. Many of these people are desperate and living far below what we consider to be poor. They work long hours just to survive. they break our immigration laws but they are hardly felons.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Of course there’s corruption in Mexico.

Then we should encourage Mexicans to stay home and work to improve their own country.

That’s another reason it’s tough to make a living there.

It will always be tough to make a living there when we keep bleeding off the most ambitions members of their population.

When seven and eight year olds have to sell trinkets to tourists in places like Cuernavaca and Guanajuato and sleep under the tables where their mothers are trying to sell their crafts, you begin to understand why many of the fathers are risking their lives

What I don’t understand is why their fathers don’t work to improve conditions in their own country.

Many of these people are desperate and living far below what we consider to be poor. They work long hours just to survive. they break our immigration laws but they are hardly felons.

e
Yep – they form the labor black market in this country, where they are exploited, serve as cover for criminals, drug smugglers, and possibly terrorists. Is that okay with you?

 

[YinYangMom]

When those laws get in the way of people’s basic human needs, they are unjust. When they prevent people from providing for their children, they are unjust. When they lead to the breakup of families, they are unjust.

Edwin

Whoa whoa whoa!

Our laws are not getting in the way of people’s basic human needs.
Their own government’s law are doing that.
When it comes to Mexico I can assure you it is a wealthy and rich country with many assets. The problem is the government is corrupt and does not provide for its own people. There is a class system there that is unjust.

What is our government doing about that? Opening our trade agreements with the same corrupt leaders who will certainly not share the wealth with those who need it most. We feed the greed.

The people, then, flee to our country to get those basics being denied to them at home. That they come her illegally is their choice and they need to take responsibility for their actions should the law catch up with them.

Our government **does not force **the families to split up. The decision to do so rests entirely on the family members themselves, just as the decision to take the risk to enter the country illegally rested on them.

 

[YinYangMom]

they break our immigration laws but they are hardly felons.

the act of breaking the immigration laws, and especially if they obtain/use false social security cards, makes them felons. It is what it is.

 

[YinYangMom]

What I don’t understand is why their fathers don’t work to improve conditions in their own country.

Because their fathers have no rights at home, that’s why. The corruption is deep. We cannot forget that Catholicism is persecuted in Mexico, priests are being killed. Judges and police officers are being killed. The drug cartel in the country is in bed with the government. There is no voice of the people, though there is the facade of such. Those who have the voice are the wealthy, the business owners, not the workers or the farmers or the native indians.

I do understand why fathers risk everything for the chance to provide for their families. I don’t understand why we allow our government to look the other way at those who hire the undocumented workers - even now that the numbers are so great they have become a movement to be reckoned with. The government is still focusing their energies on deportation and making harsher immigration laws without going after the businesses and industry and creating laws to cripple them. That’s why the Church backs the worker, but for me, that’s not enough. The Church also needs to go after the Catholic exploiters.