New SanFran Bishop ! IS Benedict Conservative?

[Libero]

I cannot understand why anyone is complaining or criticsing, be it constructive or not. We should be grateful that a bishop who wants to connect with all people has been promoted. This can only enhance the image of the church, and I think that his appointment will prevent even more homosexuals from leaving a church that they already feel unwanted in.

Further more, after the terrible track record America has had with some of it’s bishops, you should be thankful to be receiving a bishop such as Bishop Niederauer rather than one such as Bishop Moreno or Bishop Zeimann.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Libero:

I cannot understand why anyone is complaining or criticsing, be it constructive or not. We should be grateful that a bishop who wants to connect with all people has been promoted. This can only enhance the image of the church, and I think that his appointment will prevent even more homosexuals from leaving a church that they already feel unwanted in.

I bet there are those who, quite frankly, could not give…what Clark Gable could not give, at the end of “Gone With The Wind”. Besides, if homosexuals leave, we can have a nice, pure, Church with no liberal sinners in it ​

It’s always amusing to see “true Catholic” love for homosexuals: the latter are allowed in the CC, provided they are either invisible, or can be patronised with guff about “loving the sinner, hating the sin” - which relegates those on the receiving end to mere opportunities for those who “love” them, to show how Christian they are. No - love takes people as they are, without conditions, because that is how God takes us, in all our vast unlovability. For us to love differently, is to fail to love: which we all do anyway, because we all of us unlovable. So God loves us. ##

Further more, after the terrible track record America has had with some of it’s bishops, you should be thankful to be receiving a bishop such as Bishop Niederauer rather than one such as Bishop Moreno or Bishop Zeimann.

It seems that the ideal bishop would be a Rambo in a mitre - no nonse about kindness, mercy, compassion, or pansy stuff like that. As Pius X is supposed to have said - I wish I knew the context, since it affects the meaning - “Kindness is for fools”. Who cares about compassion - Catholics don’t “do” compassion .​

Joking apart, are US Catholics afraid of seeming weak by not blasting everything in sight ? There seems to be so much unresolved violence in the US - no wonder, if it shows up in Catholic attitudes too. ##

 

[DreadVandal]

Who is suggesting that we shouldn’t love homosexuals as Christ loves them? Since when is calling sinners to repentance hate? Condoning the homosexual lifestyle in order to keep homosexuals in the Church will not do them any good. Doesn’t anyone care about fidelity to the truth anymore? This is precisely why AmChurch will be screwed up for a looong time. It may take several generations to fix the problems.

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

Libero:

I cannot understand why anyone is complaining or criticsing, be it constructive or not. We should be grateful that a bishop who wants to connect with all people has been promoted. This can only enhance the image of the church, and I think that his appointment will prevent even more homosexuals from leaving a church that they already feel unwanted in.

Connection is only good when coupled with truth. If practicing homosexuals are pondering leaving the Church because they feel unwelcome, we don’t need someone to welcome them. We need someone that will do the loving thing by helping them realize they have already placed themselves outside the Church by their actions. If someone, who does not act out same sex attractions, fully embraces the teachings of the Church, what is there to make them feel unwanted?

There are different “gay Catholic” groups in America. One is called Courage and is a support group for those tempted by SSA but striving to live chaste lives. Another is Dignity, which is a dissident group, and happens to be the one that is quoted supporting the bishop. This should rightly give one pause.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

DreadVandal:

Who is suggesting that we shouldn’t love homosexuals as Christ loves them? Since when is calling sinners to repentance hate? Condoning the homosexual lifestyle in order to keep homosexuals in the Church will not do them any good. Doesn’t anyone care about fidelity to the truth anymore? This is precisely why AmChurch will be screwed up for a looong time. It may take several generations to fix the problems.

Truth “true-Catholic”-style doesn’t require love - it can go very well with fear of and pitilessness for others. Truth is not enough by itself - it needs to be kept in check, and corrected, and purified, by what is better than itself: by Love - God’s Love. People are sinners, all of us, so we can’t risk putting something relatively unimportant, even so good a thing as truth, where Love should be. We have to get all our attitudes right - including those relating to morals, including homosexuality (in this case). Which is why we need to be a Church.​

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

## Truth “true-Catholic”-style doesn’t require love - it can go very well with fear of and pitilessness for others. Truth is not enough by itself - it needs to be kept in check, and corrected, and purified, by what is better than itself: by Love - God’s Love. People are sinners, all of us, so we can’t risk putting something relatively unimportant, even so good a thing as truth, where Love should be. We have to get all our attitudes right - including those relating to morals, including homosexuality (in this case). Which is why we need to be a Church. ##

Truth is not even relatively unimportant; He happens to be the Second Person of the Holy Trinity. We are admonished to “speak the truth in love.” But we also know that “the truth shall set you free.” It needs to be said. Failing to teach just to make people feel wanted and get them to accept the rest of the package is a failure of love.

Perhaps we are just disagreeing about the “how” to teach, but the article linked above gives me doubts that the bishop is not in line with the proper “what” to teach.

 

[DreadVandal]

## Truth “true-Catholic”-style doesn’t require love - it can go very well with fear of and pitilessness for others. Truth is not enough by itself - it needs to be kept in check, and corrected, and purified, by what is better than itself: by Love - God’s Love. People are sinners, all of us, so we can’t risk putting something relatively unimportant, even so good a thing as truth, where Love should be. We have to get all our attitudes right - including those relating to morals, including homosexuality (in this case). Which is why we need to be a Church. ##

Truth is relatively unimportant? Can there be love without truth? How can love be based on a lie? or on error? Did Jesus call sinners to repentance or didn’t he?

 

[DreadVandal]

Andreas Hofer:

Truth is not even relatively unimportant; He happens to be the Second Person of the Holy Trinity. We are admonished to “speak the truth in love.” But we also know that “the truth shall set you free.” It needs to be said. Failing to teach just to make people feel wanted and get them to accept the rest of the package is a failure of love.

Perhaps we are just disagreeing about the “how” to teach, but the article linked above gives me doubts that the bishop is not in line with the proper “what” to teach.

Well said Andreas. My hunch is that the liberals in the Church really do not have a strong conception of sin or hell. I know for a fact that many of them don’t believe in hell or they believe that if there is a hell, only Hitler and Stalin are there. I think this is one of the major problems in the Church today: too few sermons on the reality of hell and God’s hatred of sin.

 

[fix]

DreadVandal:

Truth is relatively unimportant? Can there be love without truth? How can love be based on a lie? or on error? Did Jesus call sinners to repentance or didn’t he?

Nevertheless, increasing numbers of people today, even within the Church, are bringing enormous pressure to bear on the Church to accept the homosexual condition as though it were not disordered and to condone homosexual activity. Those within the Church who argue in this fashion often have close ties with those with similar views outside it. These latter groups are guided by a vision opposed to the truth about the human person, which is fully disclosed in the mystery of Christ. They reflect, even if not entirely consciously, a materialistic ideology which denies the transcendent nature of the human person as well as the supernatural vocation of every individual.

  The Church's ministers must ensure that homosexual persons in their care will not be misled by this point of view, so profoundly opposed to the teaching of the Church. But the risk is great and there are many who seek to create confusion regarding the Church's position, and then to use that confusion to their own advantage.[vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19861001_homosexual-persons_en.html](http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19861001_homosexual-persons_en.html)

 

[Strider]

“Also, some who are seriously mistaken have named sexual orientation as the cause of the recent scandal regarding the sexual abuse of minors by priests.”

icnp.com/bishop.html
Um, Your Excellency, it is sexual orientation that is the primary cause of the recent scandal regarding sexual abuse of minors by priests.
According to the John Jay study. usccb.org/nrb/johnjaystudy/

When 81% of the victims are post-pubescent males, what other possible conclusion is there? What is this bishop saying?

 

[fix]

“Also, some who are seriously mistaken have named sexual orientation as the cause of the recent scandal regarding the sexual abuse of minors by priests.”

icnp.com/bishop.html
Um, Your Excellency, it is sexual orientation that is the primary cause of the recent scandal regarding sexual abuse of minors by priests.
According to the John Jay study. usccb.org/nrb/johnjaystudy/

When 81% of the victims are post-pubescent males, what other possible conclusion is there? What is this bishop saying?

Perhaps he was misquoted?

 

[Orionthehunter]

“Also, some who are seriously mistaken have named sexual orientation as the cause of the recent scandal regarding the sexual abuse of minors by priests.”

icnp.com/bishop.html
Um, Your Excellency, it is sexual orientation that is the primary cause of the recent scandal regarding sexual abuse of minors by priests.
According to the John Jay study. usccb.org/nrb/johnjaystudy/

When 81% of the victims are post-pubescent males, what other possible conclusion is there? What is this bishop saying?

100% of the victims were young people which is an act of predation. While the study does point out that the victims were 81% male and 19% female, the study does not assert that the primary cause of the predation was sexual orientation of the predators.

Further study has to be done to determine how many the Priests abused people of both sexes, determine to the extent that the predation was related to sexual orientation and the extent that it was related to “availability” of young males vs. availability of young females.

It is wreckless to use the Jay study to reach conclusions that were not part of the study. While it is concievable that sexual orientation was the primary causal factor, it is equally concievable that sexual orientation was a minor factor.

As predation is a disorder that has distinct psychological characteristics, the Bishop is certainly legitimate is asserting that predation is the primary causal factor since 100% of the abusive acts were acts of predation. Further study is required to fully vet this issue.

I think there also needs to be a study of accusations of sexual contact between Priests and adults as this will further substantiate or contradict the contention that same sex attraction is the primary disorder in both the abuse of young people as well as Priests betraying their celibacy vow.

 

[fix]

100% of the victims were young people which is an act of predation. While the study does point out that the victims were 81% male and 19% female, the study does not assert that the primary cause of the predation was sexual orientation of the predators.

I would recommend that they become more knowledgeable about the emotional origins and healing of same-sex attractions, as well as the serious medical and psychiatric illnesses associated with homosexuality.

Also, in view of the John Jay report findings that 80% of the priestly abuse cases were with adolescent males, priests with same-sex attractions have a serious responsibility to protect the Church and youth from further scandal by working to understand and resolve their same-sex attractions. Adolescent males need to be protected from homosexual predation…

Finally, bishops should be aware that there are many “experts” who ignore medical science or are swayed by political correctness.

USCCB National Review Board member Dr. Paul McHugh, former psychiatrist-in-chief at Johns Hopkins Hospital, stated recently: “I’m amazed that this fundamental bombshell” – of the abuse of adolescent males – “has not been the subject of greater interest and discussion.”

He told the National Catholic Register, “I’m astonished that people throughout America are not talking about it, thinking about it and wondering about what the mechanisms were that set this alight.”
zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=81225

Those with deep-seated homosexual tendencies identify themselves as
homosexual persons and are usually unwilling to examine their emotional conflicts that caused this tendency. Strong physical attraction is present to other men’s bodies and to the masculinity of others due to profound weakness in male confidence.

Most of these men had painful adolescent experiences of significant loneliness and sadness, felt insecure in their masculinity, and had a poor body image. Well-designed research studies have demonstrated a much higher prevalence of psychiatric illness in those who identify themselves as homosexual.

Under severe stress they may even experience strong physical and sexual attraction to adolescent males, as has occurred in the crisis in the Church. Frequently, they may have difficulty working in a collegial and comfortable way with heterosexual males.

Given the present crisis in the Church, with 80% of the abuse involving homosexual assaults of adolescent males, seminarians and those in formation in religious communities with same-sex attractions have a serious responsibility to protect the Church from further shame and sorrow.

zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=81164

 

[willy]

Can Rome simply remove him as bishop or halt/stop his placement as bishop of sanfran???

 

[otm]

To reply to the OP, it is naievety to think that the Pope necessarily knew much, if anything, about this bishop. Those who are to be made bishops, or are to be moved, are vetted long before any information is given to the Pope, and the vetting can and usually is done by individuals who generally are fairly smart.

It does not take an absolute rocket scientist to be able to work over the reports, cutting a bit here, padding a bit there, to make anyone sound fairly good or definitely not capable of making the grade.

The Pope has how many bishops - several thousand? And you expect him to know much, ore even anything about very many of them? Let alone all of them? What did you expect that Benedict did, pick up his cell phone and have a chat with the candidates? Or their handlers? Or parishoners in their previous diocese? Or priests who served under them?

Part of the responsibility of those around the Pope (read, the Curia) is to effectively isloate him from the constant non stop barrage of information and people who would like to have a chat over tea, say, about Father Imsocool, and don’t you know how he was changing the Eucharistic Prayer, or Sister Newager who is teaching such heresy in RCIA, or who knows what about what, and reduce it to a manageable flow of things that the Pope really needs to pass on; the rest is handled by some dicastery or another. As in, the Pope never sees any of it except for the signature line on the final order, placed in front of him to sign along with 32 others that he has to sign in the next 15 minutes before he meets with the Ambassador from where ever.

You want to find out how this happened? Find out who the handlers were. Find out who gathered the reports (as in, who’s the Papal Nuncio); find out where those reports went and what they looked like after they were in Rome for a week or two… and then you will know why the Pope appointed this individual bishop.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

otm:

You want to find out how this happened? Find out who the handlers were. Find out who gathered the reports (as in, who’s the Papal Nuncio); find out where those reports went and what they looked like after they were in Rome for a week or two… and then you will know why the Pope appointed this individual bishop.

Archbishop Gabriel Montalvo.

You’re right, popes don’t micromanage the Church. And this same legate/nuncio/apostolic delegate will preside over the new Archbishop’s installation in San Francisco, as he presided over Archbishop Gomez’s in San Antonio (an Opus Dei priest and a pillar of orthodoxy), so go figure.

 

[Brain]

NWUArmyROTC:

We have to remember this. Generally bishops are appointed within a region. Thus a western bishop had to be named to a western archdiocese. In this case, this guy was probably the best we could expect. Give it five to ten years when these un-orthodox men are over age.

God Bless

Possibly, the pope was given the 3 names and picked the best he had on the list. I mean, the dioscese and the USCCB compiles the list of “mitre-able” priests so it is politisized anyway but in the end the Holy Father cant wade through tens of thousands of names, he picks from a short list.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

JKirkLVNV:

Archbishop Gabriel Montalvo.

You’re right, popes don’t micromanage the Church. And this same legate/nuncio/apostolic delegate will preside over the new Archbishop’s installation in San Francisco, as he presided over Archbishop Gomez’s in San Antonio (an Opus Dei priest and a pillar of orthodoxy), so go figure.

Whoops, spoke too soon. Archbishop Montalvo just retired, will be replaced by Archbishop Pietro Sambi.

 

[bgaCath]

DreadVandal:

Well said Andreas. My hunch is that the liberals in the Church really do not have a strong conception of sin or hell. I know for a fact that many of them don’t believe in hell or they believe that if there is a hell, only Hitler and Stalin are there. I think this is one of the major problems in the Church today: too few sermons on the reality of hell and God’s hatred of sin.

a liberal bishop does much more harm than a liberal Catholic politician. if any liberal Catholic choose politics as a career, that’s his free choice. However Church must do everything to prevent them get to high position. Excommunicating priests, bishops and theologians that support immoral politicians is the first step. what goes on in Venezuela and Bolivia should get Vatican’s attention. Socialism and Communism have been officially condemned by Vatican. South American are predominantly Catholic. whoever help socialism/communism gain popularity there should be punished.

 

[Libero]

When 81% of the victims are post-pubescent males, what other possible conclusion is there? What is this bishop saying?

Maybe he is saying that paedophillia and homosexuality are very different? You can twist the definition of paedophillia all you want to suit your case, but really a 15 year old post pubescent boy and a 44 year old man is not homosexuality, it is paedophillia.

Connection is only good when coupled with truth. If practicing homosexuals are pondering leaving the Church because they feel unwelcome, we don’t need someone to welcome them. We need someone that will do the loving thing by helping them realize they have already placed themselves outside the Church by their actions. If someone, who does not act out same sex attractions, fully embraces the teachings of the Church, what is there to make them feel unwanted?

I wonder if Jesus would do that, “sorry you are a sinner - go away” Maybe there is the constant release of documents condemning homosexuality that makes a homosexual uneasy? Maybe they will just feel like their orientation seems to be receiving so much more attention from the church than anything else?

There is a Catholic Archbishop trying to love the sinner as people here are always going on about, and instantly becuase of that you start complaining about him. Strange…