New to TLM and facing a dilemma

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Contra_Mundum_1

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Hi all,

I hope you can help me with this problem.

I have recently started attending TLM and found it challenging but worth it. I want to attend often but at the same time I want to stay connected to my parish where I am involved in some activities and care about that very much. TLM has changed my understanding of the Mass and I have changed my attitude towards what it means to actively participate, and also about the role of lay people in liturgy. I try to avoid taking communion form EMHC when I’m at my parish because it doesn’t seem right. This leads me to my dilemma. I sometimes read at Mass. Should I cease to do so? Is it a contradiction to read at Mass but not take communion from lay people? I’m very much inclined to stop doing readings at Mass but would appreciate your thoughts before making a decision.

Thank you!
 
Lay people doing the reading is not anti-traditional. In fact, in a Solemn High Mass of the TLM, the epistle is read by a lay person (technically, as a subdeacon is not part of the ordained major orders). I have also heard that the Vatican has allowed laymen to read the epistle in that context when a subdeacon is lacking.

And in the Eastern Rites, a layperson sings the epistle in the Divine Liturgy. I don’t know how common that is, but I have seen that at the DLs I’ve attended.
 
Contra_Mundum said:
Hi all,

I hope you can help me with this problem.

I have recently started attending TLM and found it challenging but worth it. I want to attend often but at the same time I want to stay connected to my parish where I am involved in some activities and care about that very much. TLM has changed my understanding of the Mass and I have changed my attitude towards what it means to actively participate, and also about the role of lay people in liturgy. I try to avoid taking communion form EMHC when I’m at my parish because it doesn’t seem right. This leads me to my dilemma. I sometimes read at Mass. Should I cease to do so? Is it a contradiction to read at Mass but not take communion from lay people? I’m very much inclined to stop doing readings at Mass but would appreciate your thoughts before making a decision.

Thank you!
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It sounds like you have a little misunderstanding about the two Masses. The Latin Mass is not objectively holier than the Novus Ordo Mass, it just has more accidental, meaning exterior beauty. Extraordinary ministers are allowed by the Church though they have been used quite extensively beyond the Church’s intent. Nonetheless, I don’t see any reason why you need to abstain from recieving Communion from such ministers. You are still recieving the Body and Blood of Christ. Also, there is nothin wrong win reading at Mass and I recommend you continue.
 
Contra_Mundum said:
Hi all,

I hope you can help me with this problem.

I have recently started attending TLM and found it challenging but worth it. I want to attend often but at the same time I want to stay connected to my parish where I am involved in some activities and care about that very much. TLM has changed my understanding of the Mass and I have changed my attitude towards what it means to actively participate, and also about the role of lay people in liturgy. I try to avoid taking communion form EMHC when I’m at my parish because it doesn’t seem right. This leads me to my dilemma. I sometimes read at Mass. Should I cease to do so? Is it a contradiction to read at Mass but not take communion from lay people? I’m very much inclined to stop doing readings at Mass but would appreciate your thoughts before making a decision.

Thank you!
Click to expand...
I completely understand your feelings on this. I have had similar thoughts and feelings. For me, prayer was the answer. I can tell you how I have resolved it, but for you, it might be different.

Think on this. What would you be accomplishing in refusing to take communion from a lay person while at NO Mass? Probably all you will accomplish is to take a stand, or cause a disturbance. But, you can avoid the lay person when possible. That shouldn’t cause you to stop participating in reading however. It is just taking a stand about your beliefs about what lay people should be involved in. I also feel that communion should only be given by the priest…and not in the hand. But, I doubt that it will be changed back. In any case, I would pray about it and ask God to help you resolve this burden and give you clarity.

I believe that the TLM will be coming back to all parishes eventually. Probably in combination with the NO Mass. Until that time, we who love the TLM usually have to travel a long way to go to one. It is my understanding, however, that if enough people in a parish express the desire for TLM, the parish priest is supposed to offer it. So, you might try to get some other people interested and then approach your priest.

God bless you.
 
We belong to a very reverant parish that only celebrates the Ordinary Form. We continue to be active in CCD and similar roles. We attend a nearby parish that celebrates the Extraodinary Form Mass for First Friday and some other special feasts.

If you wish to stop receiving from the EMHC, best practice would be to sit in the pews where you will process forward to a priest. Please try to avoid shifting around in the lines or transversing half the church to get to a priest.

I would think there would be much less of an issue with a lay lector than some have with EMHCs. Pray about it, approach your priest with your question, and be content with his answer.
 
Josh_Elzner said:
It sounds like you have a little misunderstanding about the two Masses. The Latin Mass is not objectively holier than the Novus Ordo Mass, it just has more accidental, meaning exterior beauty. Extraordinary ministers are allowed by the Church though they have been used quite extensively beyond the Church’s intent. Nonetheless, I don’t see any reason why you need to abstain from recieving Communion from such ministers. You are still recieving the Body and Blood of Christ. Also, there is nothin wrong win reading at Mass and I recommend you continue.
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Right…but it boils down to is… Some of us feel that only a priest should be allowed to touch the precious body and blood of Jesus. It hurts us to feel that we are being “forced” to be disrespectful to Our Lord and to take communion in our hand. We were taught that only a priest, who has received the sacrament of Holy Orders, and has consecrated himself to God’s service alone has the privilege of handling the Eucharist. That is why it is bothersome. For those of you who have not gone through this training…it obviously does not affect you in the same way.

I have heard of new ways of teaching, that don’t teach mortification, don’t teach penance, don’t teach the need for confession, etc… This new teaching has produced Catholics that more easily accept handling the Eucharist, and receiving the Eucharist from Lay people…but for those of us over 50, and Catholic School trained… This is very difficult for many of us. Some of us will never accept it.

I needed to point that out. The SSPX also feel this way and they are teaching their followers this same thing…the old way, the way I was taught as a child. This is the traditional way.

I think this is the dilemma…
 
JuanCarlos said:
Lay people doing the reading is not anti-traditional. In fact, in a Solemn High Mass of the TLM, the epistle is read by a lay person (technically, as a subdeacon is not part of the ordained major orders).
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Juan,

In the Traditional Rite of ordination, a sub-deacon is not a lay person. He has taken permanent vows and is ordained in minor orders.
 
Contra_Mundum said:
Hi all,

I hope you can help me with this problem.

I have recently started attending TLM and found it challenging but worth it. I want to attend often but at the same time I want to stay connected to my parish where I am involved in some activities and care about that very much. TLM has changed my understanding of the Mass and I have changed my attitude towards what it means to actively participate, and also about the role of lay people in liturgy. I try to avoid taking communion form EMHC when I’m at my parish because it doesn’t seem right. This leads me to my dilemma. I sometimes read at Mass. Should I cease to do so? Is it a contradiction to read at Mass but not take communion from lay people? I’m very much inclined to stop doing readings at Mass but would appreciate your thoughts before making a decision.

Thank you!
Click to expand...
I too attend TLM and my Parish. I am a member of both. I get two sets of envelopes. One set from both my Parish and one set from The TLM Community. I too am a Lector in my Parish. I also recieve Holy Communion from a Priest than EMHC. In my Parish other people do this too. I have seen Nuns walk across our Cathradral just to receive from a Priest. I have my reasons why. If you feel you rather receive from a Priest you can. Do not stop reading at Mass. Have the TLM enrich you in doing the readings. I too see a different understanding on “Active Participation”. Bring your passion and feelings to the OF Mass.
When I Lector. I do this by making sure I dress proper and do the proper gestures. Bow at the Creed and strike my chest at the Confitetor, Receive Holy Communion on the tounge, etc… Be proud. I was born during the year the the OF Mass was put in use. By attending both forms. It helps me to feel nurished.
 
I believe having laymen involved in the celebration of the Mass was purposeful step by the modernists in order to blur the distinction between the priesthood and laity. Modernists want a church run by laymen.

I would cease receiving Holy Communion from laymen and I 'd stop doing the reading thing also. There is no reason for having laymen doing the readings, distributing Holy Communion or presenting the gifts. Laymen who think they actually are accomplishing something serving in these capacities remind me of a child who has a set of kids tools and ‘helps’ dad with his woodworking project. The youngester may ‘feel’ better but he really accomplishes nothing.
 
giuseppeTO said:
Juan,

In the Traditional Rite of ordination, a sub-deacon is not a lay person. He has taken permanent vows and is ordained in minor orders.
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I may be wrong, but I was under the impression a subdeacon has not received the permanent character of Holy Orders on his soul; only deacons, priests, and bishops have that. If a subdeacon left the subdiaconate, he would be a layman. If a deacon left the diaconate, he would still be a deacon. So technically, the subdeacon is a layperson in the sense that he has not received the Sacrament of Holy Orders.
 
ncstevem said:
I believe having laymen involved in the celebration of the Mass was purposeful step by the modernists in order to blur the distinction between the priesthood and laity. Modernists want a church run by laymen.

.
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I think you are right. Modernists “took the ball” so to say, and “ran with it” after Vatican II. They had a chance to do some different things, but instead everything was changed dramatically, to the point that many traditional Catholics got upset and started not attending Mass anymore. I still talk to many of those people, they hate the “new Mass” and won’t attend. It disturbs them very much.

It was NEVER the intention of Vatican II that the Latin Mass be abolished…yet it was. Modernists successfully put it in the closet and hid it from the generations of Catholics of the 70s up until now. Latin has not been taught to men who were studying to be priests… 😦 That is a big reason why the SSPX was established, because they did not want the TLM to die out and priests to not know how to celebrate it. Vatican II documents (feel free to look at them) clearly state that the NO mass in the vernacular may be implemented in addition… but in no way does it state that it should SUBSTITUTE FOR, or REPLACE the TLM. This is why our Holy Father is trying to correct the errors of the past years. He knows this. He also has born witness to the masses of Catholics who have left the faith because of the actions of the Modernists. He also knows that there are many Catholics who long for the Church’s return to more traditional ways of teaching.

The “modernists” still have dreams of changing the Church to conform to modern times. They forget that the Church exists to lead us to heaven and to teach us God’s way. They believe, like many protestant religions, that the church exists to help people “talk to” or “relate to” God. In so doing, they “lift people up” to feel worthy to do so.

Catholic tradition teaches us that we must make ourselves small, realize that we are unworthy, yet loved by God. By realizing our unworthiness and practicing mortification, we move closer to God, because we become purer. Modernists believe that we must just “tell ourselves” that we are worthy… THIS IS THE PROBLEM with this new movement… it can actually move people away from God because it may provide an avenue for pride to enter. Pride is one of the greatest sins and the hardest for us to see and realize.

While the modernists have been successful in gathering a flock of people who don’t want to practice mortification and penance… they have not gathered a lot of pious people, the type who typically enter the priesthood and religious life. For this reason, the population of religious have dramatically gone down and many parishes do not even have a priest. This has opened up for them the chance to further advance their agenda to have “lay people” do more things in the Mass. They have already tried, and will try again to destroy the priesthood, they will try to establish that marriage is a right for priests, and that women should be allowed to enter the priesthood. It is in their agenda.

So, yes… it is the purpose to “blur” the edges. You are so right. Its time to pray. Let us call upon St. Michael. Have you noticed that the prayer to him was removed from the NO Mass? Why? Things to think on.
 
I attend a TLM every Sunday, and I thank God for it all the time. I love the beauty of the traditional Mass, and would go everyday if one were available. But it’s not.

Many of the people at the TLM where I attend have absolutely no use for the NO. I’ve had more than one person tell me they won’t go to Mass if they can’t go to a Latin Mass. Many of them are in some way connected with the SSPX. My feeling on this is something I heard once somewhere: I am not holier than the Church. The Catholic Church, started by Jesus Christ and headed on earth by the Vicar of Christ, has stated that there are two acceptable forms of Mass, and as much as I love the TLM, I completely accept the NO, which I attend the rest of the week. I had problems at first receiving from lay people, but again, I thought, I am not holier than the Church. I think it is very wrong of us to pick and choose what is right and what is wrong about the Church. Unless it is something really blatant, like the Blessed Sacrament is not the Body and Blood of Christ, I really think it is up to us to accept the teachings and judgments of the Church. And please, keep doing the readings in your Church. That is part of the rubrics of the NO, and there is nothing wrong with it.

I feel we really have to be very careful about taking a “holier than thou” attitude towards the Church. It can turn into a very judgmental and condemning attitude, and that is sinful.

God bless you.

Mary
 
Contra_Mundum said:
Hi all,

I hope you can help me with this problem.

I have recently started attending TLM and found it challenging but worth it. I want to attend often but at the same time I want to stay connected to my parish where I am involved in some activities and care about that very much. TLM has changed my understanding of the Mass and I have changed my attitude towards what it means to actively participate, and also about the role of lay people in liturgy. I try to avoid taking communion form EMHC when I’m at my parish because it doesn’t seem right. This leads me to my dilemma. I sometimes read at Mass. Should I cease to do so? Is it a contradiction to read at Mass but not take communion from lay people? I’m very much inclined to stop doing readings at Mass but would appreciate your thoughts before making a decision.

Thank you!
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Hi Contra Mundum,

I don’t like lay ministers of the Word or the Eucharist, but on those rare occasions when I attend a Novus Ordo Mass, I conform. Conform to what is authorized (by legitimate authority, not priestly innovation) practice where you are. I went to a Novus Ordo wedding yesterday. The Novus Ordo now seems to me to be built around activity. It seemed so busy. Anyway, I decided to repeat all the words that I knew and all the actions of the others. (My sign of peace was probably not very satisfying to my neighbors). I admit I don’t appreciate the Novus Ordo the way most Catholics do. It is always demanding my begrudging activity and seems to disrupt my easily distracted contemplation. Who is this sweaty guy who will want to hold my hand at the Our Father? I can’t stand that stuff. My daughters went to a Vigil afterwards where the first thing out of the priest’s mouth was, “Make eye contact with your neighbor”. I never have that nonsense anymore.

I knew I loved the Old Mass and was repelled by the New, and when I gained a clear conscience about the Society of St. Pius X, I never went back to the New. But if I wanted both, or whenever I go again to a Novus Ordo, I wouldn’t pick and choose. I’ve tried that route. For me that wasn’t the path to joy. My advice would be to take the new liturgy as a whole or do like me and don’t take it at all except for the rare obligation.

Rory
 
Brooklyn said:
Many of the people at the TLM where I attend have absolutely no use for the NO. I’ve had more than one person tell me they won’t go to Mass if they can’t go to a Latin Mass. Many of them are in some way connected with the SSPX. My feeling on this is something I heard once somewhere: I am not holier than the Church. The Catholic Church, started by Jesus Christ and headed on earth by the Vicar of Christ, has stated that there are two acceptable forms of Mass, and as much as I love the TLM, I completely accept the NO, which I attend the rest of the week. I had problems at first receiving from lay people, but again, I thought, I am not holier than the Church. I think it is very wrong of us to pick and choose what is right and what is wrong about the Church. Unless it is something really blatant, like the Blessed Sacrament is not the Body and Blood of Christ, I really think it is up to us to accept the teachings and judgments of the Church. And please, keep doing the readings in your Church. That is part of the rubrics of the NO, and there is nothing wrong with it.
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I agree. I feel that there IS a place in our liturgy for BOTH. But, that is not what was happening over the last decades. We almost lost the TLM. Yes, many SSPX do have a bit of an attitude… they have great difficulty accepting the NO… for the reasons I mentioned above. They feel that the modernists are allowing heretical notions to enter into Catholic teachings… Many lay SSPX carry that to the extreme because of their misunderstandings and yes… won’t even attend a NO Mass. I don’t believe they think they are “holier than thou” … but that the modernists have been led astray of Catholic teaching and are leading others astray. They don’t want to take the chance of that happening to them.

That is why our Holy Father has opened a dialog with the SSPX and continues to try to bring them back into full communion. I believe as we incorporate more TLM into every parish, and return to our traditional ways of teaching… the lay people of the SSPX will feel safer, and the SSPX will pull back objections and return to full communion with us. We need to pray for this. Our Holy Father needs prayers and so does the SSPX. This dividing hurts us, the body of Christ, and causes anguish and confusion. The SSPX has stated that it is their wish that there will no longer “be a need” for them to have their own separate churches in which to offer Mass and minister to their congregation. They very much want to return to full communion.

I believe that there is a place in our Liturgy for both traditions… the TLM and the NO. Just like the different Rites minister to people of different cultures… so will the different styles of Mass within our Latin Rite. I think this is what our Holy Father is seeing too… that is why he has been re-initiating us to the TLM. Many young people have never seen it. We have the right to enjoy both and offer both to praise God.
 
Brooklyn said:
I attend a TLM every Sunday, and I thank God for it all the time. I love the beauty of the traditional Mass, and would go everyday if one were available. But it’s not.
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Not to derail the thread, but I’ve only heard of one location in Brooklyn that offers the EF: Our Lady of Peace. Is there another?
 
malphono said:
Not to derail the thread, but I’ve only heard of one location in Brooklyn that offers the EF: Our Lady of Peace. Is there another?
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No, unfortunately, that’s the only one. 9:30 each Sunday.

There are several in Manhattan, though, if you feel like traveling there.
 
Thank you for your replies, I really appreciate it.

I hope that in my post I didn’t give an impression of a ‘pick and choose’ or ‘holier than thou’ person. I don’t think such attitudes are righ because the NO is valid and in no way less of a Mass. When it is done properly it is beautiful.

However, the question of EMHC is a bit tricky. Having them just for the sake of having lay people ‘do stuff’ and ‘participate’ is not exactly according to the rules. For this reason I don’t see myself as picking and choosing, but rather following the rules. I never change lines to receive Communion from a priest in a way that is disruptive or very noticable to people around me. I try to be discreet. If it can’t be done, then I take it from EMHC.

The question of rading at Mass is less controversial it seems. I will pray about it and discuss it with the parish priest.

Your comments have definitely shed a lot of light on this. (I think that generally the posts on this forum are of high quality and I’m glad I’ve joined.)
 
And in the Eastern Rites, a layperson sings the epistle in the Divine Liturgy. I don’t know how common that is, but I have seen that at the DLs I’ve attended.
It’s standard practice if there is not a tonsured reader.
 
I cannot* believe *someone would pass up the Eucharist!
People in our parish go to the priest’s line if they object to receiving from EMs.
 
I also do not receive Holy Communion from an EMHC. First of all, I do not receive in the hand, and most EMHC’s are not properly trained for giving Communion on the tongue and there have been near-misses AND misses in my own experience. I cannot let that happen again. Also, I am sick and tired of EMHC’s who dispense Communion with exaggerated facial features such as huge smiles on their faces and want to look directly into your eyes with exaggerated intonations like it’s all about them! I do not find that reverent, and I refuse to participate in such nonsense. Then, there’s the clothing most of them wear. Most of my devout friends only receive on the tongue and feel the same way! Finally, the the person who suggested sitting on the side of church where the priest normally gives Communion just does not work in our parish because the priests change sides on a whim, we have lots of visitor priests who go this way or that and sometimes don’t give out Communion and let everybody else do it. So, I just wait to see where the priest is going and I have been known to go from one side of the church to the other to get to him. Sorry, that is what Vatican II has done to receiving Our Lord, and until the TLM comes to my town anytime soon, I will continue with the above. 75% of the time on Sundays I go to a Sisters’ chapel many miles from home so I can participate in a reverent liturgy, but I do support my parish.
 
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