New tract I found for Catholics: thoughts?

[Koineman]

Hello all,

A friend on Facebook recently posted a link to the following gospel tract written for Catholics. I commented on it on FB, pointing out that the one who wrote it should have researched Catholicism better, as the tract implies that Catholics believe in salvation by works. The link is customtractsource.com/Catholic-Tract_p_480.html#.T8zIaR4K4DU.twitter. Thoughts?

May the Holy Father bless you. That we might be rescued from hell, we have been baptized, attend mass daily, go to confession and continue receiving the sacraments on a regular basis. But God says, “If a man is not born again, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” (John 3:3) So being right in the eyes of the Roman Catholic church is not the same as being right in the eyes of God. The need to be born again is because “The heart of man (the core of his very being) is deceitful and above all things desperately wicked.” (Jeremiah 17:9) How often do you have sexual thoughts? Have you ever stolen anything or wish you had something someone else has? Have you ever hated anyone? God calls this murder. If you answered yes to any of these questions you have broken God’s law which exposes the infinite depth of your wickedness. In this wretched state you can’t do anything to satisfy the infinite standard of God’s righteousness, wrath, and holiness. In other words being a good Catholic cannot save you. By faith alone in the blood and imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ alone can save you. This is God’s gift to you. Your religious activity is a rejection of Jesus Christ’s payment in full for your sins. Therefore, if you would just “confess with your mouth Jesus Christ as Lord and believe in your heart God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved. For with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.” (Romans 10:9-10) Now please memorize this last bible verse instead of praying the Rosary, and go to 9marks.org and find a good church. If you do this and believe all that has been said on this card to be true, I’ll see you in heaven.

 

[Shannon9791]

Hello all,

A friend on Facebook recently posted a link to the following gospel tract written for Catholics. I commented on it on FB, pointing out that the one who wrote it should have researched Catholicism better, as the tract implies that Catholics believe in salvation by works. The link is customtractsource.com/Catholic-Tract_p_480.html#.T8zIaR4K4DU.twitter. Thoughts?

**If you do this and believe all that has been said on this card to be true, I’ll see you in heaven. **

Wait, wait, wait. Faith alone and you still have to DO something? Seems like they’re talking about faith AND works, which sounds a lot like what Catholicism teaches. To me this looks like Calvinism through and through, especially the part that speaks about how horrible men are. The T in T.U.L.I.P. stands for total depravity, and that’s absolutely against what the Church teaches. Any time you come across something like this, make sure you read it and go through it with a fine toothed comb, and I’ll bet you dollars to donuts you’ll be able to pick out the contradictions. Some won’t be as obvious as this, but they’ll be there.

 

[Koineman]

Wait, wait, wait. Faith alone and you still have to DO something? Seems like they’re talking about faith AND works, which sounds a lot like what Catholicism teaches.

Good point.

To me this looks like Calvinism through and through, especially the part that speaks about how horrible men are.

That is not necessarily just a Calvinist teaching. Many non-Calvinist Christians believe the same, especially regarding the verse from Jeremiah, which was quoted.

The T in T.U.L.I.P. stands for total depravity, and that’s absolutely against what the Church teaches.

What exactly is it about Total Depravity that is against what the Church teaches?

 

[Shannon9791]

Good point.

That is not necessarily just a Calvinist teaching. Many non-Calvinist Christians believe the same, especially regarding the verse from Jeremiah, which was quoted.

What exactly is it about Total Depravity that is against what the Church teaches?

From the Catechism:

1707 "Man, enticed by the Evil One, abused his freedom at the very beginning of history."10 He succumbed to temptation and did what was evil. He still desires the good, but his nature bears the wound of original sin. (emphasis mine) He is now inclined to evil and subject to error:

If one is totally depraved, he can not desire good, only evil. Just because one is inclined to evil, doesn’t mean he doesn’t desire the good.

 

[Koineman]

From the Catechism:

1707 "Man, enticed by the Evil One, abused his freedom at the very beginning of history."10 He succumbed to temptation and did what was evil. He still desires the good, but his nature bears the wound of original sin. (emphasis mine) He is now inclined to evil and subject to error:

If one is totally depraved, he can not desire good, only evil. Just because one is inclined to evil, doesn’t mean he doesn’t desire the good.

I’m not trying to split hairs here; I’m genuinely curious. What does the catechism mean by “good”?

 

[Shannon9791]

I’m not trying to split hairs here; I’m genuinely curious. What does the catechism mean by “good”?

Keep on asking those questions. I can almost promise you those are the ones that will lead you straight to the truth! I would think the Catechism would define “good” as that which is righteous, ie God, but if someone else has a better definition, I’m open to it. What it’s saying is that even though man’s nature is sin, or I should probably say sinful, our hearts are still always pointed towards God. Again from the Catechism:

1711 Endowed with a spiritual soul, with intellect and with free will, the human person is from his very conception ordered to God and destined for eternal beatitude. He pursues his perfection in “seeking and loving what is true and good” (GS 15 § 2).

1713 Man is obliged to follow the moral law, which urges him “to do what is good and avoid what is evil” (cf. GS 16). This law makes itself heard in his conscience.

 

[MaryandJoseph]

Before reading ANY tract,first notice who the publisher is. If the publisher is a non-Catholic, then its a good bet they have an agenda which is to draw faithful Catholics AWAY from Mother Church.

Many times, the sponsoring church will put their address on the back of a tract (hoping you see the “truth” in what they are saying and run to their church to “get saved”),if that is the case, and if you are a well formed Catholic, do a Point by Point answer to the tract and mail it back to them.

 

[Scoobyshme]

The Bible was not meant to be used by selecting snippets out of context. Jesus never wrote a book to spread His truths. He taught orally. The Bible itself says that not all that Jesus taught is IN the Bible. (John 21:25) Yet, Jesus commanded His Apostles to go forth and teach “all” that He taught. (Matt. 28:20) The Bible, in fact, wasn’t assembled until the 4th century, by the Catholic Church. The Pope and the Bishops prayed to the Holy Spirit for guidance and sifted through over 300+ documents. The 27 they chose as being “divinely inspired” became the New Testament. This New Testament says that the Church is the “pillar and foundation of truth.” (1 Tim 3:15) It doesn’t say the Bible is. Personal interpretation of the Bible is spoken against by St. Peter in 2 Peter 1:20.

The Rosary is the prayer of the Gospel! Not until the late 1800’s, early 1900’s was universal literacy of interest to anyone. Before that, only a very small percentage of earth’s population could read and write. A “Bible-only” church would have necessarily left out the vast majority of the people in the world because most could not read. The prayers of the Rosary are from the Gospel. The mysteries are also from the Gospel. The Word of God is not a book. Strictly speaking, it is a Person. Jesus Christ. If we pray properly, we become what we pray. Praying the Rosary is praying the Word of God, Jesus Christ. We become like what we pray.

Just some thoughts to think about…

 

[Koineman]

Keep on asking those questions. I can almost promise you those are the ones that will lead you straight to the truth! I would think the Catechism would define “good” as that which is righteous, ie God, but if someone else has a better definition, I’m open to it. What it’s saying is that even though man’s nature is sin, or I should probably say sinful, our hearts are still always pointed towards God. Again from the Catechism:

1711 Endowed with a spiritual soul, with intellect and with free will, the human person is from his very conception ordered to God and destined for eternal beatitude. He pursues his perfection in “seeking and loving what is true and good” (GS 15 § 2).

1713 Man is obliged to follow the moral law, which urges him “to do what is good and avoid what is evil” (cf. GS 16). This law makes itself heard in his conscience.

And yet:

“If anyone asserts that we can, by our natural powers, think as we ought, or choose any good pertaining to the salvation of eternal life, that is, consent to salvation or to the message of the Gospel, without the illumination and inspiration of the Holy Spirit, who gives to all men facility in assenting to and believing the truth; he is misled by a heretical spirit…” (Canon 7) (quoted from philvaz.com/apologetics/a134.htm)

I’m not so sure the Church’s teaching is that man, apart from grace, can even desire good from God. I’m not sure that’s what you meant, but it sounded like it. My take on the catechism’s statements, which you quoted, is that man is made to serve God, and that perfection can be pursued only in seeking and loving what is true and good. This doesn’t say that man is capable of desiring those things; it simply says this is how he pursues his perfection. That, at least, is how I’m reading it, but I could be wrong.

 

[Shannon9791]

And yet:

I’m not so sure the Church’s teaching is that man, apart from grace, can even desire good from God. I’m not sure that’s what you meant, but it sounded like it. My take on the catechism’s statements, which you quoted, is that man is made to serve God, and that perfection can be pursued only in seeking and loving what is true and good. This doesn’t say that man is capable of desiring those things; it simply says this is how he pursues his perfection. That, at least, is how I’m reading it, but I could be wrong.

No, you’re right and I probably should’ve said that from jump street. Forgive my assumption. Apart from God, man can not pursue the good, and because of his inclination to sin, he might not, BUT each man has the natural law written on his heart, and because of that, he longs for God.

1776 Deep within his conscience man discovers a law which he has not laid upon himself but which he must obey. Its voice, ever calling him to love and to do what is good and to avoid evil, sounds in his heart at the right moment. . . . For man has in his heart a law inscribed by God. . . . His conscience is man’s most secret core and his sanctuary. There he is alone with God whose voice echoes in his depths."

My point was one can’t be totally depraved if the natural law is always calling him to love and do good. I hope that makes sense.

 

[Koineman]

No, you’re right and I probably should’ve said that from jump street. Forgive my assumption. Apart from God, man can not pursue the good, and because of his inclination to sin, he might not, BUT each man has the natural law written on his heart, and because of that, he longs for God.

1776 Deep within his conscience man discovers a law which he has not laid upon himself but which he must obey. Its voice, ever calling him to love and to do what is good and to avoid evil, sounds in his heart at the right moment. . . . For man has in his heart a law inscribed by God. . . . His conscience is man’s most secret core and his sanctuary. There he is alone with God whose voice echoes in his depths."

But even that doesn’t speak of man having a desire for good. It simply points to the law calling man to be obedient. Just because the law is written on man’s heart (general revelation) does not mean that he wants to obey it, any more than the fact that God’s existence can be known through creation (again, general revelation) means that man wants to worship the true and living God. You seem to be equating revelation with personal desire. If that’s so, I don’t agree, and what’s more, I don’t think even the Church’s teaching agrees with you on that.

 

[Dorothy]

But even that doesn’t speak of man having a desire for good. It simply points to the law calling man to be obedient. Just because the law is written on man’s heart (general revelation) does not mean that he wants to obey it, any more than the fact that God’s existence can be known through creation (again, general revelation) means that man wants to worship the true and living God. You seem to be equating revelation with personal desire. If that’s so, I don’t agree, and what’s more, I don’t think even the Church’s teaching agrees with you on that.

The Catholic understanding of “fallen” does not mean totally depraved.

The teaching is that we are wounded in our nature, and our desires are not in harmony with our spirits.

There must be something online that articulates this much better.

 

[Koineman]

The Catholic understanding of “fallen” does not mean totally depraved.

Depends what you mean by “totally depraved.” If you mean inability, the quote from the Council of Trent in my previous post seems to affirm inability. What, by the way, do you think total depravity means?

The teaching is that we are wounded in our nature, and our desires are not in harmony with our spirits.

There must be something online that articulates this much better.

By all means, please share it if you find it. So far I’ve been going just by the Catechism and the Council of Trent, and so far I have not seen anything that teaches that man desires God naturally, apart from grace.

 

[cajunhillbilly]

I studied at Westminster a Calvinistic seminary. And total depravity NEVER meant man was as bad as he could be. Nor did it deny that men and women could seek after social good and even some moral good. But it did teach that man is at his root inclined to sin and every faculty of man is influenced by sin. I find the same thinking in Augustine and Aquinas. I think people misunderstand Total Deprvity and that as a phrase it is a poor choice of words. Perhaps radical depravity would be a better term.

 

[Dorothy]

Depends what you mean by “totally depraved.” If you mean inability, the quote from the Council of Trent in my previous post seems to affirm inability. What, by the way, do you think total depravity means?

By all means, please share it if you find it. So far I’ve been going just by the Catechism and the Council of Trent, and so far I have not seen anything that teaches that man desires God naturally, apart from grace.

I found this, and there is much more out there on the subject.

cantuar.blogspot.com/2012/01/catholic-church-vs-protestant-reformers.html

 

[Koineman]

I studied at Westminster a Calvinistic seminary. And total depravity NEVER meant man was as bad as he could be. Nor did it deny that men and women could seek after social good and even some moral good. But it did teach that man is at his root inclined to sin and every faculty of man is influenced by sin. I find the same thinking in Augustine and Aquinas. I think people misunderstand Total Deprvity and that as a phrase it is a poor choice of words. Perhaps radical depravity would be a better term.

Good point. That was why I was asking people what they meant by “total depravity.” I know that there is often misunderstanding of what it teaches, even among non-Catholics. It doesn’t address the degree of the fall but rather the scope of the fall. In other words, it does not teach that man is as bad as he could be; rather, it teaches that the fall has corrupted all of man’s faculties (hence the “total” in “total depravity”)–will, mind, heart, intellect, etc.

 

[Koineman]

I found this, and there is much more out there on the subject.

cantuar.blogspot.com/2012/01/catholic-church-vs-protestant-reformers.html

Thanks. I was hoping for an official Catholic document, though, “official” meaning a pronouncement that is considered infallible. I believe in going straight to the source.

 

[snarflemike]

Question - were Adam and Eve at their creation totally depraved? Could they desire/seek the good without God’s grace?

 

[Koineman]

Question - were Adam and Eve at their creation totally depraved? Could they desire/seek the good without God’s grace?

I don’t think they were totally depraved at their creation. That would be a horrific idea. To the second question: yes, I think they were able to desire good without God’s grace before the fall. They were created in perfect fellowship with God.

 

[FIU_student]

The Bible was not meant to be used by selecting snippets out of context. Jesus never wrote a book to spread His truths. He taught orally. The Bible itself says that not all that Jesus taught is IN the Bible. (John 21:25) Yet, Jesus commanded His Apostles to go forth and teach “all” that He taught. (Matt. 28:20) The Bible, in fact, wasn’t assembled until the 4th century, by the Catholic Church. The Pope and the Bishops prayed to the Holy Spirit for guidance and sifted through over 300+ documents. The 27 they chose as being “divinely inspired” became the New Testament. This New Testament says that the Church is the “pillar and foundation of truth.” (1 Tim 3:15) It doesn’t say the Bible is. Personal interpretation of the Bible is spoken against by St. Peter in 2 Peter 1:20.

The Rosary is the prayer of the Gospel! Not until the late 1800’s, early 1900’s was universal literacy of interest to anyone. Before that, only a very small percentage of earth’s population could read and write. A “Bible-only” church would have necessarily left out the vast majority of the people in the world because most could not read. The prayers of the Rosary are from the Gospel. The mysteries are also from the Gospel. The Word of God is not a book. Strictly speaking, it is a Person. Jesus Christ. If we pray properly, we become what we pray. Praying the Rosary is praying the Word of God, Jesus Christ. We become like what we pray.

Just some thoughts to think about…

I really liked this post, you said it so well.