New York Cardinal Egan Slams Giuliani for Receiving Communion at Papal Mass - Demands Meeting

[childofmary1143]

This is something that came up for me also. For example, how many Catholics today believe that artificial birth control used in a marriage to space children, or after three or four children, is a mortal sin, and that one unrepentant mortal sin would condemn a person to eternal hell fire?

Do you believe in the Baltimore Catechism? Perhaps a refresher is in order. I remember what it taught concerning mortal sin:

1. The thought, word or deed must be wrong.
2. The Sinner **must **know this.
3. The Sinner must give full consent to it.

If any of these is missing it is not a mortal sin.

Your theology is flawed because you assume that they know that ABC is wrong. If they aren’t taught it, and surely you must realize that it isn’t being taught, then they can’t be held to have committing a mortal sin.

 

[Kielbasi]

lifesitenews.com/ldn/2008/apr/08042803.html

I find the article a little disingenuous.
That statement implies that it was the politician’s decision to receive it. I believe that he was able to receive Holy Communion because the Archbishop allowed it to happen. As Bishop and primary liturgist in his diocese, and I doubt that Pope Benedict would have opposed it, he could have informed Rudy before hand not to receive communion.

I agree, Cardinal Egan could have easily refused Mr. Guiliani if he so chose. On the same point, he could have also not invited Guiliani to the mass at all, the former mayor is a private citizen, doesn’t hold any political office and plenty of Catholics didn’t have an invite.

But Egan didn’t choose to do anything, and then comes down after the fact and complains about Guiliani.

Arguments about what if Rudy wasn’t recognized don’t wash, because he is a very public figure, his positions are very well known and the whole event was on TV. Just because some priest or bishop in a backwoods chapel might not recognize the mayor or know his positions and give him communion in good faith, doesn’t excuse what happens at an internationally broadcast mass at Yankee Stadium.

 

[Lynn-D]

I am sorry, but I think it would be absolutely horrible if the Church started ordering that certain people were not to receive communion. How on earth would anyone ever enforce this? Suppose you’re a Eucharistic Minister, and someone like Rudy Giuliani comes walking up to Communion. In the first place, you might not know who he is. In the second place, you might know who he is, but how can you judge anything about his private life? For all you know, he has just been to confession and has just received an annulment for the last of his broken marriages. Would you really want to play God and decide that you can’t give him Communion?

If the Church starts refusing Communion to certain people, it will open the worst can of worms imaginable. Is the Church supposed to be a Church or an organization of Secret Police?

When Jesus instituted the Eucharist, I’m sure he knew that there would be some people who received Communion unworthily. I believe that He is capable of handling this. The rest of us don’t have a clue what is going on in someone else’s head, and we are completely incapable of judging whether or not someone else is worthy enough to receive Communion.

I don’t think enforcement is needed to be initiated by the priest.
Not a priests fault if he does not recognize the person but if he is aware of the bishops order then he should turn the person away without ado.

The bishop should order the excommunication if the parishioner had previously been told he or she is not permitted to partake in the SACREMENT of receiving Holy Communion because of the parishioners stance in opposition to church doctrine. Lets face it, many of those like Giuliani and Pelosi received communion to be in the political limelight.

We should receive communion to be sharing with Jesus, not as a tabloid event. And, if receiving communion haven’t we already confessed our sins and made every effort to not commit them again. That is not what I see the pro-abortionists doing. So yes, if they intend to follow through with their belief that killing an unborn child is ok then they are not only committing a sin obviously witnessed by the congregation as I see it but the confession itself was invalid since they intended to continue in support of abortion.

Lynn-D

 

[guanophore]

lifesitenews.com/ldn/2008/apr/08042803.html

I find the article a little disingenuous.

It says this:

The decision by several prominent pro-abortion politicians to publicly receive Holy Communion at papal Masses during the recent visit of Pope Benedict XVI, despite clear Church teaching that says that their reception of Communion would constitute a grave sacrilege, may have backfired.

That statement implies that it was the politician’s decision to receive it. I believe that he was able to receive Holy Communion because the Archbishop allowed it to happen. As Bishop and primary liturgist in his diocese, and I doubt that Pope Benedict would have opposed it, he could have informed Rudy before hand not to receive communion.

The Pope should have brought a cadre of his Swiss Guard, and protected the Blessed Sacrament from such profanity! Off with their heads.

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[liebee]

It’s not only Guiliana’s pro-abortion stand, it’s his last marriage which isn’t valid in the church. He was not “annulled” on the 2nd go round and flounts his new gal to all. AND used tax money to have her protected while he was still married to the 2nd one. That’s stealing. He has a multitude of mortal sins against the 10 commandments! His bishop should stand up and knock him down.

I resent anyone calling him Catholic. He IS NOT. He is anti-catholic if anything because he knows what he’s doing and is bringing disgrace to the church.

 

[bobzills]

Your theology is flawed because you assume that they know that ABC is wrong. If they aren’t taught it, and surely you must realize that it isn’t being taught, then they can’t be held to have committing a mortal sin.

So, according to that line of reasoning, it is OK for someone to receive Holy Communion if he believes that abortion or ABC is OK?

 

[guanophore]

I am sorry, but I think it would be absolutely horrible if the Church started ordering that certain people were not to receive communion. How on earth would anyone ever enforce this? Suppose you’re a Eucharistic Minister, and someone like Rudy Giuliani comes walking up to Communion. In the first place, you might not know who he is. In the second place, you might know who he is, but how can you judge anything about his private life? For all you know, he has just been to confession and has just received an annulment for the last of his broken marriages. Would you really want to play God and decide that you can’t give him Communion?

If the Church starts refusing Communion to certain people, it will open the worst can of worms imaginable. Is the Church supposed to be a Church or an organization of Secret Police?

The church has always refused communion to the uninitiated and those who have separated/excommunicated themselves by virtue of spurning the teachings of the Church. THis is nothing new. The dilemma of the EM is very real. It is not the duty of such a minister to know. The Church teaches that we are to police ourselves:

1 Cor 11:27-30

27 Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. 28 Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself. 30 That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died.

The problem we are having is that so many have their consciences seared, and when they examine themselves, they excuse themselves. How is a pastor or bishop to deal with this?
I think Cardinal Egan did his best under the circumstances. Maybe he should have had some Swiss Guards standing by the Ministers of communion, with photographs of the offenders, so that they could be escorted out?

http://msnbcmedia1.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Video/050422/nn_maceda_swissguard_050422.300w.jpg

 

[childofmary1143]

So, according to that line of reasoning, it is OK for someone to receive Holy Communion if he believes that abortion or ABC is OK?

First off its not a “line of reasoning”, its Catholic teaching. Secondly we are discussing what constitutes a mortal sin not whether someone who believes that abortion or ABC is okay should receive Communion. It may be possible that Pelosi and company genuinely believe it is okay but nevertheless should be denied Holy Communion.

 

[bobzills]

First off its not a “line of reasoning”, its Catholic teaching. Secondly we are discussing what constitutes a mortal sin not whether someone who believes that abortion or ABC is okay should receive Communion. It may be possible that Pelosi and company genuinely believe it is okay but nevertheless should be denied Holy Communion.

So are you then saying that it is OK for Protestants to go around having abortions and using ABC, and to receive Holy Communion in the Catholic Church, as long as they don’t think there is anything wrong with abortion or contraceptive methods?

 

[childofmary1143]

So are you then saying that it is OK for Protestants to go around having abortions and using ABC, and to receive Holy Communion in the Catholic Church, as long as they don’t think there is anything wrong with abortion or contraceptive methods?

Start a new thread if you want an answer to that question. Stay on topic.

 

[bobzills]

Start a new thread if you want an answer to that question. Stay on topic.

This was something that follows from what you had brought up, and you launched an attack against me by saying that my theology was flawed, and now I can see that you don;t want to answer my response to your accusations against my reputation.

 

[childofmary1143]

This was something that follows from what you had brought up, and you launched an attack against me by saying that my theology was flawed, and now I can see that you don;t want to answer my response to your accusations against my reputation.

Well then file a complaint against me with the Mod’s. That is what they are for. If you don’t then quit your crying and grow up.

Fact you said that anyone who uses ABC is comitting mortal sin. That is heresy. I pointed that out using Catholic teaching.

 

[bobzills]

Well then file a complaint against me with the Mod’s. That is what they are for. If you don’t then quit your crying and grow up.

Fact you said that anyone who uses ABC is comitting mortal sin. That is heresy. I pointed that out using Catholic teaching.

More personal attacks against me without responding to the question at point. Are you saying that it is not a serious sin to use artificial birth control or to have an abortion? This seems to me to be a rather important change in Catholic teaching that you are here advocating: that it is OK to use ABC or to have an abortion and to receive Holy Communion without confessing the sin. Are you saying that it is flawed theology for someone to say that a person who uses ABC or who has an abortion should not receive Holy Communion?

 

[crenfro]

I think this borders on ranting but maybe not. Maybe they’re just my thoughts. They are my honest reactions to this thread –

I’m so tired of hearing talk about this sacriledge that I can’t make myself read through one more discussion of it. I couldn’t make myself read the posts in this thread.

I’m so tired of everyone trying everything and anything yet not asking what is God’s will until it’s almost too late… asking God what is His will should be the first thing I ask, not what will other people think of me.

…sometimes I wonder if some of us Catholics have lost the courage to stand up for our beliefs… isn’t one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit to admonish each other in order to keep each other from remaining in the state of mortal sin?

Excommunication can be a merciful act and if a public sin deserves its label, then call it.

Are we more afraid what others think or what God thinks?

Just my two cents. I am glad Cardinal Egan said what he said. But why didn’t the priest or whoever gave out communion withhold the host, then and there? That’s some courage I need to see more of and be willing to cultivate in myself.

 

[guanophore]

Actually, it would be much better if the Cardinal and others kept their mouths shut in public about the matter. This is a pastoral issue, not a opportunity to send out press releases.

– Mark L. Chance.

It is pastoral and private until the politician makes it public. Now he has the responsibility to take a public stand, since the politician took one. If he wanted to keep it quiet, he could have avoided Mass, sat in the back, or been obedient.

 

[bobzills]

…sometimes I wonder if some of us Catholics have lost the courage to stand up for our beliefs… isn’t one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit to admonish each other in order to keep each other from remaining in the state of mortal sin?.

This makes a lot of sense to me.

 

[childofmary1143]

More personal attacks against me without responding to the question at point.

You made an incorrect Catholic statement for which you haven’t acknowledged as incorrect and for whatever reason you go on a different topic altogether. How about you acknowledging the Catholic teaching that it is possible that a person can committ a serious sin without it being mortal.

Are you saying that it is not a serious sin to use artificial birth control or to have an abortion?

I never said that. All I said is that it is possible for a person to use ABC and not have committed a mortal sin. Of course it would be serious but that wouldn’t necessarily be mortal

This seems to me to be a rather important change in Catholic teaching that you are here advocating: that it is OK to use ABC or to have an abortion and to receive Holy Communion without confessing the sin.

I am not advocating any change as I referenced what the Baltimore Catechism taught me about what constitutes a mortal sin.

Are you saying that it is flawed theology for someone to say that a person who uses ABC or who has an abortion should not receive Holy Communion?

No, of course not.

 

[liebee]

It seems that what some are using is called relativism - it’s ok to do something if the situation is this or that or where or when or if if if!!! If Guiliani, Pelosi, Kennedy, Daschle, etc,etc, doesn’t know yet what is a mortal sin or not and what they are doing is wrong, then they should get out of trying to run our country because they must be idiots. I think they are trying to tell everyone what they think of the Catholic Church - as satan is doing. They are working for satan and love it. When the masses of people turn to God, the Blessed Virgin will crush him - and them.

 

[Nordar]

It seems that what some are using is called relativism - it’s ok to do something if the situation is this or that or where or when or if if if!!! If Guiliani, Pelosi, Kennedy, Daschle, etc,etc, doesn’t know yet what is a mortal sin or not and what they are doing is wrong, then they should get out of trying to run our country because they must be idiots. I think they are trying to tell everyone what they think of the Catholic Church - as satan is doing. They are working for satan and love it. When the masses of people turn to God, the Blessed Virgin will crush him - and them.

Well Guiliani knows for sure it is a mortal sin, Cardinal Egan made him very aware of this, So yep, I agree with you they are quite simply thumbing their collective noses at The Catholic Church,

 

[bobzills]

Q: “Are you saying that it is flawed theology for someone to say that a person who uses ABC or who has an abortion should not receive Holy Communion?”
No, of course not.

Well, then you are wrong to say that my theology is flawed, because this is exactly what I have said was my opinion of what is correctly taught according to Catholic teaching.