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anp1215
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That is confusing. Scripture shouldn’t contradict…this issue is frustrating!
NEW YORK: Lesbian [Episcopal ] Priest Nominee on List to be Next Bishop of New York
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ringil
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Scripture does not contradict. It may seem to to those who are ignorant of the dynamics of Sacred Scripture (including myself) but we can seek the council of the learned and holy to show us the way. Perhaps we are frustrated with certain passages of scripture because God is calling us to grow in understanding in these particular areas.
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anp1215
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I found another thread in which tantum ergo gave this response which I feel helped clarify the matter better for me:
"I don’t know too much about Jewish services, but I do believe that the people (men and women were separated) sang and prayed. So women were not exactly “silent”. Now, going on to what was done–the Torah was read by the rabbi, I believe. (Of course, we have women rabbis too now in both Reform and Conservative Judaism).
Now, we have the apostles preaching at the time Paul wrote. We also hear (in Acts, for example) that there were women deacons, women helping out (like Dorcas and Priscilla). We also know that there were some JEWISH women (not anti-Semite, but solely relating to the specific examples of women Paul met in a specific time frame) who spoke AGAINST the apostle, and against Christ and Christian teachings, and roused the cities and towns against Christians. So, for Paul, persecuted as he was, a Jew who lived in a patriarchical society where men and ONLY men were involved in preaching or scriptural activity, and himself being a celibate male, and suffering from physical affilictions, is writing in ONE scriptural letter (to a specific group of people) that “women should not speak in church”. Is Paul speaking for all time here, or is he speaking to one group which has had trouble with perhaps some women there speaking AGAINST the church? Remember, Paul isn’t saying, “Christ doesn’t permit women to speak” but “I–meaning Paul–do not allow women to speak”. In the society Paul lived, women would not be EXPECTED to speak out, and if they DID, would be fomenting trouble. Remember, Paul also told people to be KIND to their slaves. . .he didn’t tell them to “end slavery now!”
He also said, “There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free man, woman nor man, but ALL ARE ONE IN CHRIST JESUS.”
Remember, context is important, prayer is important, and above all, we as Catholics have (ta da!) the MAGESTERIUM. If it is OK with our Pope and bishops that women read as lectors, then guess what, say howdy, it is OK with me. I trust that my Church, instituted by God, will be kept free of error in doctrine. It is not the women being LECTORS that is a problem (as it is not a problem that women and men can be EXTRAORDINARY MINISTERS OF HOLY COMMUNION) but what INDIVIDUAL men AND women can do to ABUSE their office that would pose any problems.
IMO. And speaking as a woman who first became a lector at age 15. Though I have chosen not to be a lector in the past decade, it is not because I feel that women speaking in church is WRONG. Rather, I feel I have served my turn and I encourage others to serve God–whether it’s as a lector, in the altar guild, or above all by participating in the Mass every Sunday as a member of the congregation of the faithful."
I’m still not sure if I agree with the practice, but this helped me understand the reasoning a little better.
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Scott_Lafrance
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I rejoined the Catholic Church on March 30, 1997.
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1holycatholic
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That’s odd, the Episopalians near me start out with the same style of tasteless round crackers and fermented grape juice as the Latin rite Catholics.
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CMatt25
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I am glad she was at least able to help. God bless! And peace.
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anp1215
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God bless you as well.
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7_Sorrows
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near you? start out with? could you be more specific, i am not sure what you mean.
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1holycatholic
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The Episcopalian parish is two blocks away from my parish.
Before attempting consecration.
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SpeakInSilence
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So it’s not real communion without bread and wine? What about my friend who can’t eat any glutton? What another member of my Church who has been struggling with alcoholism, and if he even takes a sip he’s going to stumble down that road again. So do these people have to take communion with bread and wine? My church does communion with bread and juice (we have a long of former alcoholics) every Sunday. I for one actually believe in the actual presence of Christ when I take it though.
With that being said…
Some of your comments on this forum make Catholics out to be pretty snotty and self-righteous. Sarcasm on I am glad that I’ve been a horrible Christian my whole life because of being raised a Protestant, because according to some of you I’ve rejected the REAL Christ my entire life Sarcasm off. I don’t know one person in my congregation that would say the same about Catholics. I want to learn more about the Catholic Church, I love the idea of universal unity, and that kind of peace of mind, but I refuse to be a part of a community that condemns and chastises other people that hold a deep faith in Christ also, as I have my entire life.
With that being said…
Some of your comments on this forum make Catholics out to be pretty snotty and self-righteous. Sarcasm on I am glad that I’ve been a horrible Christian my whole life because of being raised a Protestant, because according to some of you I’ve rejected the REAL Christ my entire life Sarcasm off. I don’t know one person in my congregation that would say the same about Catholics. I want to learn more about the Catholic Church, I love the idea of universal unity, and that kind of peace of mind, but I refuse to be a part of a community that condemns and chastises other people that hold a deep faith in Christ also, as I have my entire life.
- To comment on the thread though… this is a perfect example of the Protestant Churches starting to completely fall away from the teaching of Church. I’ve been seeing sign that my denomination too will begin to falter soon. Lucky the UMC council has voted no on gay marriage.
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1holycatholic
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It’s not the Eucharist without valid matter, form and intent. No validly ordained priest == no Eucharist.
It’s gluten, and there are hosts made from gluten free wheat flour. There is also the cup.
They don’t have to receive from the cup. Catholics aren’t Utraquists.
Body and blood.
Belief does not make it so.
If you have a deep faith in Christ why aren’t you in full communion with His Church?
The UMC congregation near me flies gay pride flags. Apparently UMC councils don’t mean much where the rubber meets the road.
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Scott_Lafrance
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The Body and Blood are fully present in both species, so an alcoholic could skip the cup and still be receiving the fullness of Christ. Likewise, a person with a gluten allergy can request gluten free hosts, or, skip the plate and take only the cup (if available). The only case would be an alcoholic with a gluten allergy…but can still request a gluten free host.
And why do we appear snooty because we claim what the Church claims? If I had the only surviving copy of the Beatles White album and I told you that I did, does that make me an honest purveyor of information, or a snob. I guess that would depend on the delivery of my message. Prehaps you are reading intent into the message where there is none? I don’t think anyone who has explained their position has done so out of haughtiness. But, then again, I am looking at it from this side of the tracks, so perhaps my glasses are colored.
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CMatt25
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Well that can be said across the board of any faith.
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CMatt25
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I just do not particularly like the taste of alcohol myself. I know my local UMC church uses grape juice too and the UCC congregation near me offers a choice of juice or wine. But like the others before me have said, a Catholic can pass on the cup. Many in fact have at the Catholic Masses I’ve attended. As long as the body is not dipped into the cup first, one can avoid the alcohol. The local Episcopal priest has also said at his church I could pass on what they believe to be the Blood of Christ as well if I did not want the alcohol taste.
In any case and I know it can be difficult. But I know Ringil and others have sometimes said, don’t judge Catholics out in the real world based on some of the things you might see on any internet forum. God bless you in your Christian walk. Peace.
In Christ,
CMatt25
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SpeakInSilence
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Couldn’t the same go for you? What a horrible argument. That’s just a long the lines of, “Because I said so.”
Also the it seems like the Catholic priest down in Australia aren’t too happy with the pope, and demand to get married. It seems like Vatican Policies don’t have much say when rubber meets the road.
See, I can be just as snotty.
If anything will bring me to the Church it’s going to be the current Pope who I look up to, and the Saints… not someone who basically says my entire spiritual life following Christ was a poor imitation.
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1holycatholic
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It’s not a horrible argument. I have physical certitude, historical certitude and metaphysical certitude regarding the Catholic Church. Protestants do not have certitude.
Even if you had mentioned the right country in your argument, dissident priests do not invalidate the Church or negate Church teaching.
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TMC
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I am Catholic and have certitude in my faith, but I don’t see how a Catholic or any faithful person can declare that someone else does not have certitude in their own faith. Are only Catholics allowed to have faith? That makes no sense to me whatsoever.
As to dissidents - there is more than one country with dissident priests, but Australia has its share, but the existence of dissidents does not invalidate any religion, including Catholicism.
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anp1215
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This is very important to remember.
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Semper_Zelare
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Someone earlier suggested you should visit the Episcopal church and you don’t know what you’re talking about. But, it looks like you have.
I myself have been considering visiting the Episcopal church at the University of Alabama for 2 reasons:
- I want to see how few people go there. And if they’re close to a parish closing … seeing as it is right next to the Catholic Church on campus.
- I want to see how bad the liturgical abuse is. They have pictures on their website of a “halloween mass”, I’m not posting pictures to show anyone here just how spooky it was!
no, but seriously… it was really spooky 
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