New Zealanders hand in 50,000 guns after 'assault weapon' ban

[Theo520]

a bit of trivia

• Only three countries in the world currently have a constitutional right to own a gun: the US, Mexico, and Guatemala.
• Six other countries used to have a constitutional right to bear arms, but they’ve since repealed those laws.

 

[Hume]

The best idea I’ve ever seen is allowing civilians to own sporting firearms and defining those as firearms where the user must completely reload/work the action manually. It allows civilian ownership of bolt action hunting rifles, pump shotguns, and lever action rifles.

Sufficient for self defense (a shotgun with light shot is very arguably the best home defense weapon - even according to many gun enthusiasts) and extremely difficult to rapidly kill 49 people in an Orlando nightclub with them.

 

[upant]

Absolutely. With Zero Doubt.

when has this worked?

Without a doubt.

really, a three front war, that would work

the winning power wants to make use of the territory regained

it wouldn’t be a land grab, you have the wrong concept of what the fight would be like.

Economics. Make them expensive.

the real reason for gun control, to control the poor people

but it wouldn’t stop the black market

I originally came from Australia

read up on gun crimes in Melbourne, it is comparable to some of our cities. most of our cities are comparable to yours.

Well done New Zealand, we are proud of you! No need for anyone other than law enforcement and the military to have access to guns.

there are still about 1.450 million guns on the street, 50k was a drop in a bucket, 2/3 went non-compliant. what was well done?

oh, the feelgood law

 

[Hume]

when has this worked?

For most of human history. Demoralizing your opponent into submission through denial is a relatively inexpensive and effective tactic as it doesn’t require pitched battles.

The most famous relative to this would be the famed Fabian Strategy that Consul Fabius used to starve Hannibal out of the Italian peninsula.

really, a three front war, that would work

There would only be one set of fronts - the rebel zones. Chinese and Russian aid will not come to America. After all, they’d make much, much MUCH more money in trading with the federal government of the United States. The trade lanes to rebel zones would be closed.

Back to nukes - were Syria a nuclear power, the Americans wouldn’t be there. It’s why North Korea rabidly develops their nuclear capability. Iran as well.

the real reason for gun control, to control the poor people

but it wouldn’t stop the black market

No, it utilizes the black market to achieve its aim. That’s what makes it so effective.

When it’s no longer available at Bud’s Big Box Gun Shop for mass consumption, the black market price starts jumping skyward. After a few years of buy-backs and confiscations from adjacent crimes, scarcity drives the black market price further skyward.

You can obtain a magazine-fed full-auto weapon legally in the US with something in the neighborhood of $10K for the fees, checks and the weapon itself. But one off the black market that can’t be traced to you? That’s “new car” territory - all cash. Want a belt-fed bullet hose? That’s “new luxury car” territory. Again, all cash. Can’t charge that to your AMEX and make payments, I’m afraid.

The black market is what makes bans work. Again, your average thug can’t afford them and a private-citizen-gone-bad probably has the credit, but not the cash. And on black markets, cash is the only currency (and, of course, bitcoin).

 

[JonNC]

So, out of respect for the right of free speech, I should be very reluctant to minimize or undermine the right to keep and bear arms, because devaluing one constitutionally-protected right threatens all constitutionally protected rights. Is that it?

Correct, and in the reverse.

This falls under the heading of be careful what you wish for. The principle you just illuminated would then imply we should be very careful to undermine the right of every woman to have an abortion, for it too is presently classified as a constitutionally protected right since Roe v Wade.

And of course, that’s the approach of progressives. An individual right does not come at the expense of another’s. This is the same fallacy as the claim that healthcare, being a right, should be paid for by taxpayers.
If you have to pay for my right, that makes you my servant.
With abortion, a human child pays the ultimate price: execution.
I can exercise my right to firearms until it harms you.
I can exercise my inherent right to religious free exercise As long as I harm no one.

 

[JonNC]

Well done New Zealand, we are proud of you! No need for anyone other than law enforcement and the military to have access to guns.

Why the military? In the 20th century, governments killed rough 100 million of their own civilians, a number exponentially great than killed by civilians. Seems to me that the proposal to disarm civilians while arming the government is a prescription for a repeat of the 20th century.

 

[Peebo]

[q upantuote=“upant, post:113, topic:581991”]
I originally came from Australia

read up on gun crimes in Melbourne, it is comparable to some of our cities. most of our cities are comparable to yours.
**
[/quote]**

Where are the statistics

 

[upant]

You can obtain a magazine-fed full-auto weapon legally in the US with something in the neighborhood of $10K for the fees, checks and the weapon itself. But one off the black market that can’t be traced to you? That’s “new car” territory - all cash. Want a belt-fed bullet hose? That’s “new luxury car” territory. Again, all cash. Can’t charge that to your AMEX and make payments, I’m afraid.

you are reaching the extreme, nobody except the rich has fully-auto. this skews your numbers. how much would the cost of an AR-15 coming from a smuggled kit cost? why use an AR when a high-powered hunting gun could work as well in a guerilla warfare situation.

The black market is what makes bans work . Again, your average thug can’t afford them and a private-citizen-gone-bad probably has the credit, but not the cash. And on black markets, cash is the only currency (and, of course, bitcoin).

please explain the drug trade and the 40 yr drug war if the market helps the ban.

There would only be one set of fronts - the rebel zones.

you miss how this would work, think more IRA instead of civil war, the whole country would be filled with rebels.

Where are the statistics

here is an interesting view on Melbourne from 2016

Gun Violence, Crime & Shootings in Melbourne | How Melbourne became a Gun City

 

[niceatheist]

The Union Army needed some target practice after it busted up the Confederacy.

 

[niceatheist]

Even if every Ukrainian, Chinese, Cambodian and anyone else these tyrannies had had their rifles, just how successful do you imagine they’d have been against the Soviets, PLC or Khmer Rouge?

 

[Peebo]

Australia has a much smaller population than the US…25 million… here are the actual gun deaths…which includes homicides for 2018…30 gun related homicides…if you click on the chart for 2018 it brings up all the stats…homicides…suicides etc…206 gun related deaths…like I said…totally different culture than here in the US…and trying to compare is plainly ridiculous.

https://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/australia#total_number_of_gun_deaths

 

[Mark121359]

Not having a gun doesn’t make you a subservient coward.

No. But in the wrong neighborhood, not having one may make you a sitting duck!!!

 

[LeafByNiggle]

LeafByNiggle:

So, out of respect for the right of free speech, I should be very reluctant to minimize or undermine the right to keep and bear arms, because devaluing one constitutionally-protected right threatens all constitutionally protected rights. Is that it?

Correct, and in the reverse.

This falls under the heading of be careful what you wish for. The principle you just illuminated would then imply we should be very careful to undermine the right of every woman to have an abortion, for it too is presently classified as a constitutionally protected right since Roe v Wade.

And of course, that’s the approach of progressives.

If we follow your logic, it is an unavoidable conclusion that we should not overturn Roe v. Wade. If the progressives make this argument, it only because you handed it them on a silver platter. Perhaps you would want to re-evaluate your decision to link gun rights to every other constitutionally protected right, such as abortion.

 

[upant]

Australia has a much smaller population than the US…25 million… here are the actual gun deaths…which includes homicides for 2018…30 gun related homicides…if you click on the chart for 2018 it brings up all the stats…homicides…suicides etc…206 gun related deaths…like I said…totally different culture than here in the US…and trying to compare is plainly ridiculous.

the issue isn’t only gun deaths but gun violence and it is a problem in Melbourne.

 

[Peebo]

What might seem a problem with gun violence in Australia wouldn’t even get one line in a newspaper here in the US…I live in a semi rural area outside Tallahassee…it’s a relatively small city of around 197,000…already this year…19 killed…54 wounded…71 shootings…and that doesn’t include other gun violence…Melbourne has around 5 million…that just doesn’t happen in Melbourne…or elsewhere in Australia…I keep saying that the culture…gun culture if you want…is different than here…even in an armed holdup the chances of being shot are way less than here…that’s the way it is…I’ve lived here in the US near on 20 years and have adapted pretty much to all facets of life here…I own guns…don’t have a problem with them…but guns or gun violence is nowhere the same in Australia…that’s no reflection on the US…I don’t know why you’re trying to compare Melbourne to cities here other than you don;t know anything about Australia…I’ve never lived in Melbourne neither so I could care less.

 

[upant]

I don’t know why you’re trying to compare Melbourne to cities here other than you don;t know anything about Australia…I’ve never lived in Melbourne neither so I could care less.

Melbourne was averaging a shooting a week, now you may think that isn’t much, but when the anti-gun lobby is claiming Australian gun control works, I think a shooting a week is notable. I believe it needs to be pointed out that it isn’t as gun-free as they claim. the latest reports said they were at a 10 year high in gun offenses. this isn’t what people think when they think Australia but it is the reality.

in the majority of the US, nobody is killed or shot, just like in Australia. the issue is the cities and the gangs and Australia isn’t immune to it.

 

[Hume]

you are reaching the extreme, nobody except the rich has fully-auto. this skews your numbers. how much would the cost of an AR-15 coming from a smuggled kit cost? why use an AR when a high-powered hunting gun could work as well in a guerilla warfare situation.

You’re missing the point, so I’ll attempt to simplify;

There’s no real intrinsic reason why automatics cost more than semis. The additional machining the lower receiver on an M4 receives to give it 3 round burst or automatic firing probably has an additional cost of dollars or mere pennies relative to a semiautomatic variant like the LE6920. The uppers on the auto/semiauto variants are identical. Literally the same.

What makes the automatic so much more expensive is the soft ban the government has placed on them.

please explain the drug trade and the 40 yr drug war if the market helps the ban.

Are you arguing that bans don’t make the banned items more expensive on black markets?

This is just a lack of education on your part on how markets work. Every kid that went through business school knows this stuff.

you miss how this would work, think more IRA instead of civil war, the whole country would be filled with rebels.

Nothing missed. The Troubles are over and the IRA failed. Northern Ireland is still part of the UK.

 

[upant]

What makes the automatic so much more expensive is the soft ban the government has placed on them.

but you quoted the higher price of the auto, a cheaply made ar would not carry that cost. I can buy a cheap one for about $500. nobody would pay $10k even on a black market.

Are you arguing that bans don’t make the banned items more expensive on black markets?

This is just a lack of education on your part on how markets work. Every kid that went through business school knows this stuff.

it is still supply and demand. if nobody buys the product the price will drop. street drugs are so cheap now.

Northern Ireland is still part of the UK

yet the IRA is part of the government and still around

 

[JonNC]

Even if every Ukrainian, Chinese, Cambodian and anyone else these tyrannies had had their rifles, just how successful do you imagine they’d have been against the Soviets, PLC or Khmer Rouge?

The argument that citizens should just submit.
We will never know if the outcomes of these events would have been different had the populace been armed. I’m not one who believes we should be willing to chance a repeat of history.

 

[JonNC]

totally different culture than here in the US…and trying to compare is plainly ridiculous.

Agreed…