Newlyweds...another reason to really, really work on your marriage

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I think there are provisions for those kinds of situations. A student in foster care would probably be considered an orphan because parental rights are affected. The state has custody of the child.

I know other kids who have dire situations who get a lot of one on one help with the FAFSA and get a lot of financial aid.

I think the list was created to end people trying to buck the system. I know a few decades ago kids would move out of their homes for a year, get jobs, have their parents not claim them on taxes, and file independent. You can still do that, but you have to be 24 years old, which is exactly past the age that most students are done with undergraduate work. Also, a student is not going to get any special treatment by saying their parents don’t want to help them. A high percentage of parents look at the cost of college and say they can’t help, then the students whine because they think every other student/family has it easier than they do. In the end, the parents do not have to provide higher education for their kids, just like they don’t have to pay for anything else they deemed too expensive, like let’s say being on the swim team in high school. They get to decide for themselves what they are going to pay for. Even if the parents won’t pay, though, the household income needs to be reported.
Great. The kid’s financial aid gets assessed based on the parents’ ability to help, they refuse to help at all, and the kid gets stuck with whole burden–both his share and their share.

College prices are set based on the assumption of a reasonably helpful family–they aren’t set on the assumption that middle class and upper middle class parents boot their kids out the door permanently at 18. A young adult with a high school diploma is just barely capable of supporting himself on his earnings–to expect that he will both support himself and pay 100% for college is ridiculous, especially if he’s coming out of a family that can afford nice things. Furthermore, if he takes out loans (which a young person in that position frequently does), he will be that much more burdened when attempting the various other tasks of young adulthood: finding jobs, marrying, and raising children of his own. Student loans don’t disappear just because you have a family now, and your spouse may well have student loans of her own. (The average graduate with student loans now finishes with $35k in student loan debt–and a lot of those people had help from family. If two average indebted graduates marry, that’s $70k just in student loan debt)

People complain about today’s late marriages, but I think it’s virtually miraculous that the median couple is able to marry even in their late 20s, given all the financial obstacles they face.

Parents who don’t make a reasonable effort to put their children on track for a profession that can support a family are failing at parenthood.

(I understand not helping with college if there’s serious misbehavior going on, but that wasn’t in your example–you just mentioned it as being “too expensive.”)
 
I think that we’re mixing up terms here with different types of “emancipation.” When you join the military or get married you are not becoming “emancipated” from your parents; you’re an adult entering into a legal contract. You become legally emancipated from your parents when you turn 18. Now for the purpose of the FAFSA it remains your parents’ responsibility to provide for your education until you turn 24. The only emancipation that would matter for the purpose of the FAFSA is if you were an emancipated minor, something which is not lightly granted and certainly not granted because your parents refuse to help with your college education.
Yes.
 
Then they can bring court protective orders, police reports, and letters from people familiar with the situation and get a dependency override for the FAFSA.

I think that we’re mixing up terms here with different types of “emancipation.” When you join the military or get married you are not becoming “emancipated” from your parents; you’re an adult entering into a legal contract. You become legally emancipated from your parents when you turn 18. Now for the purpose of the FAFSA it remains your parents’ responsibility to provide for your education until you turn 24. The only emancipation that would matter for the purpose of the FAFSA is if you were an emancipated minor, something which is not lightly granted and certainly not granted because your parents refuse to help with your college education.
I will restate that I was not talking about parents refusing to help with the college tuition being a reason to seek emancipation.

I was asking questions about the current state of things and sharing my own experience of two decades ago.

I realize that some things were being discussed at the same time in my correspondence with others here, but I do understand that they are different realities.

Someone said that “minor” is being or has been redefined to include people in young adulthood up to the age of 24. I now realize, since I have asked a few questions, that the redefinition only applies for those young people that are seeking financial aid for their college tuition. When I first read through those comments, it seemed like it applied to even applying for admission to university, which sounded ridiculous to me. Many people have held down jobs for years and started their own families by the age of 24, so I couldn’t understand why they would be considered a minor by colleges. Now if that is just for qualifying for financial aid, I can see that. However, there are still many people who, for one reason or other, will qualify for financial aid without their parents, even while still younger than 24… I did and many other did and still do.
 
Great. The kid’s financial aid gets assessed based on the parents’ ability to help, they refuse to help at all, and the kid gets stuck with whole burden–both his share and their share.

College prices are set based on the assumption of a reasonably helpful family–they aren’t set on the assumption that middle class and upper middle class parents boot their kids out the door permanently at 18. A young adult with a high school diploma is just barely capable of supporting himself on his earnings–to expect that he will both support himself and pay 100% for college is ridiculous, especially if he’s coming out of a family that can afford nice things. Furthermore, if he takes out loans (which a young person in that position frequently does), he will be that much more burdened when attempting the various other tasks of young adulthood: finding jobs, marrying, and raising children of his own. Student loans don’t disappear just because you have a family now, and your spouse may well have student loans of her own. (The average graduate with student loans now finishes with $35k in student loan debt–and a lot of those people had help from family. If two average indebted graduates marry, that’s $70k just in student loan debt)

People complain about today’s late marriages, but I think it’s virtually miraculous that the median couple is able to marry even in their late 20s, given all the financial obstacles they face.

Parents who don’t make a reasonable effort to put their children on track for a profession that can support a family are failing at parenthood.

(I understand not helping with college if there’s serious misbehavior going on, but that wasn’t in your example–you just mentioned it as being “too expensive.”)
I understand that this is a high priority for you, but just because it is does not mean that your opinion that such parents are failing at parenthood becomes a reality. That is a very uncharitable assertion for you to make.
 
Great. The kid’s financial aid gets assessed based on the parents’ ability to help, they refuse to help at all, and the kid gets stuck with whole burden–both his share and their share.

College prices are set based on the assumption of a reasonably helpful family–they aren’t set on the assumption that middle class and upper middle class parents boot their kids out the door permanently at 18. A young adult with a high school diploma is just barely capable of supporting himself on his earnings–to expect that he will both support himself and pay 100% for college is ridiculous, especially if he’s coming out of a family that can afford nice things. Furthermore, if he takes out loans (which a young person in that position frequently does), he will be that much more burdened when attempting the various other tasks of young adulthood: finding jobs, marrying, and raising children of his own. Student loans don’t disappear just because you have a family now, and your spouse may well have student loans of her own. (The average graduate with student loans now finishes with $35k in student loan debt–and a lot of those people had help from family. If two average indebted graduates marry, that’s $70k just in student loan debt)

People complain about today’s late marriages, but I think it’s virtually miraculous that the median couple is able to marry even in their late 20s, given all the financial obstacles they face.

Parents who don’t make a reasonable effort to put their children on track for a profession that can support a family are failing at parenthood.

(I understand not helping with college if there’s serious misbehavior going on, but that wasn’t in your example–you just mentioned it as being “too expensive.”)
Tell me about it. I have two in college right now. I don’t make the rules, I am just forced to follow them. We help our kids with college as much as we can, but I can’t force another family to do the same. If there is an “out” for saying you won’t help, well then I will say it. Is there a magical check box on the form that says “will you help your student?” that if I check it they get more aid? If there is, I will check it, and so will everyone else.
 
I understand that this is a high priority for you, but just because it is does not mean that your opinion that such parents are failing at parenthood becomes a reality. That is a very uncharitable assertion for you to make.
I don’t necessarily mean college, but I think that all parents should make a reasonable (notice that word) effort to make sure that their children are on track to support themselves and a family before turning them loose on the world. That could mean a great many things–trade school, college, the family farm, the family business, a successful small business, whatever–but it doesn’t mean changing the locks at 18 and hoping for the best.

Even animals don’t normally stop supporting their babies until they are capable of fending for themselves and raising a family of their own. We should do at least as well as feral cats in raising our kids–even feral cats provide substantial vocational instruction to their kittens.

(Just in case there’s a misunderstanding, even just giving an adult child food and board during the college years is a substantial contribution to their future. So, I would count that, too.)
 
Tell me about it. I have two in college right now. I don’t make the rules, I am just forced to follow them. We help our kids with college as much as we can, but I can’t force another family to do the same. If there is an “out” for saying you won’t help, well then I will say it. Is there a magical check box on the form that says “will you help your student?” that if I check it they get more aid? If there is, I will check it, and so will everyone else.
Sure. But if a family is capable of helping, their child is worth helping, and they won’t help, I feel OK getting judgy about that.
 
I don’t necessarily mean college, but I think that all parents should make a reasonable (notice that word) effort to make sure that their children are on track to support themselves and a family before turning them loose on the world. That could mean a great many things–trade school, college, the family farm, the family business, a successful small business, whatever–but it doesn’t mean changing the locks at 18 and hoping for the best.

Even animals don’t normally stop supporting their babies until they are capable of fending for themselves and raising a family of their own. We should do at least as well as feral cats in raising our kids–even feral cats provide substantial vocational instruction to their kittens.

(Just in case there’s a misunderstanding, even just giving an adult child food and board during the college years is a substantial contribution to their future. So, I would count that, too.)
Thank you for that clarification. I mistook your meaning as fully funding university or other vocational training as being a moral requirement for adequate parenting.

I was locked out of the house at 18. I couldn’t believe what was happening at the time, and it took me many years to accept and to forgive. (I was literally dependent upon someone being home and awake for me to be able to enter the family home or access my belongings that yet remained in the home, belongings which were later sold or donated behind my back. Yeah, my parents were well and truly quit of me, despite the fact that I graduated in the top 25 of my high school class and gained admission to a major university and was a regular youth group attendee and very active in my church. It made me lose my faith for a while, but by the grace of God, that laid the foundation for my conversion to Catholicism). I could never be so cruel to anyone, let alone my own children. Our children are being raised in the knowledge that they are going to be welcome to live with us until they decide they are ready to launch. We will provide whatever assistance we can to them, either planning or financial, but we can make no promises ahead of time how much that will be. They will not have carte blanche to go wherever they choose for higher education, unless they can fund it themselves.
 
What about teens who are abandoned or disowned or kicked out of abusive homes, I wonder? Or who were removed and placed in foster care?

To be clear, I am not talking about anyone striving for any of those categories. Only saying that if one finds themselves in such a category, perhaps all hope is not lost. College might still be achievable.
Speaking from fairly recent experience (about 7 years in my case, 2 in my sister’s) here.

We weren’t removed from the home, and so couldn’t provide documentation in the form of court orders and such. Nor could we provide police reports, or counselor statements, etc.

For some background, I’m 7 years older than baby sis. Our parents are pretty dysfunctional: dad’s in bad health and some sort of mentally ill, who knows what, and mom’s an alcoholic with distinct sociopathic tendencies.

When I went to school, I left home and went a thousand miles away. I initially went to the only school I was allowed to, but realized pretty quickly that although I’d been promised financial support while going there, I wasn’t getting it. I had to start working two jobs to support myself, get out of the (as private schools go, reasonably-priced, but still pricey) private school mom had picked out, and enroll at the local community college. Which was one of the best decisions I ever made, but I digress.

The community college financial aid people told me–incorrectly, as it happens–that there was no way to be declared independent of my parents for financial aid purposes unless I married, joined the military, or turned 25. I took them at their word for the next three years. Over the course of that time, my mother did her best to sabotage my efforts at getting an education: I’d have to beg and plead with her to send me her financial paperwork for FAFSA. For those three years, she didn’t send the information until it was too late in the year to do any good or sent it on time but falsified it to show she was earning more money than she was (very long story) so that I wouldn’t be eligible for need-based financial aid. I worked my tail off, and got enough scholarships to cover the very minimal community college costs for two of those years–had to take out a loan for the other. The whole time, I was working two or three jobs at a time, which while necessary (I needed to eat!) also meant that I was still less eligible for financial aid because between me and my parents, although, of course, they weren’t helping me at all, that meant we were “earning” enough to render me ineligible for a lot of the need-based stuff.

When I transferred to a four-year school to finish my degree, I was blessed to have a very helpful financial aid counselor who told me that I might be able to get emancipated from my parents for financial aid purposes, and walked me through the steps to do so. It was made harder in my case because I wasn’t a foster kid, I did have (extremely limited, and for the sake of baby sis who still lived at home) contact with them, and I didn’t have any sort of documentation to prove the tax fraud, her stealing my identity to use in other tax fraud, the sociopathic behavior, and so forth.

However, thanks to some friends and family members who really put their necks on the line for me by making written statements about the ongoing stuff they were aware of (my mother can be extremely vengeful, and if she’d known about this, would have sued them) and that counselor, I was able to be declared emancipated.

A few years later, I walked my sister through the same thing, as our mother was doing to her exactly what she did to me: get her into a private school (mom’s a snob, and believes that her kids shouldn’t go to one of those disgusting public universities with Everyone Else), sign her up for a lot of debt, promise financial help, and then skip out on it. As it was with me, it was difficult but not impossible to get her emancipated; her school was a lot more rigorous in its research, and I suspect that if I hadn’t done this before, she wouldn’t have gotten it, as my school was, with my permission, able to share that they’d gotten me emancipated and why, plus I was able to write up statements with the right “buzzwords,” if you will, to get a financial aid officer’s attention.

Mind you, being emancipated doesn’t mean everything’s scot-free, either. Ironically, you lose a lot of the need-based stuff just because some of it is based on the idea of helping out overstretched parents, not single people out on their own. (Or at least, such was the case a few years ago: things may have changed in the interim.) We still got more than we would have if we relied on mom’s forged tax returns, assuming she’d have even given them to us, or if we couldn’t have gotten her info for the FAFSA at all, but also nowhere near as much as if she’d given us the correct financial information in the first place.

ETA: apologies for the run-on sentences and some grammar errors above–I was typing this on a deadline, just as the toddler was waking up. 😉
 
Speaking from fairly recent experience (about 7 years in my case, 2 in my sister’s) here.

We weren’t removed from the home, and so couldn’t provide documentation in the form of court orders and such. Nor could we provide police reports, or counselor statements, etc.

For some background, I’m 7 years older than baby sis. Our parents are pretty dysfunctional: dad’s in bad health and some sort of mentally ill, who knows what, and mom’s an alcoholic with distinct sociopathic tendencies.

When I went to school, I left home and went a thousand miles away. I initially went to the only school I was allowed to, but realized pretty quickly that although I’d been promised financial support while going there, I wasn’t getting it. I had to start working two jobs to support myself, get out of the (as private schools go, reasonably-priced, but still pricey) private school mom had picked out, and enroll at the local community college. Which was one of the best decisions I ever made, but I digress.

The community college financial aid people told me–incorrectly, as it happens–that there was no way to be declared independent of my parents for financial aid purposes unless I married, joined the military, or turned 25. I took them at their word for the next three years. Over the course of that time, my mother did her best to sabotage my efforts at getting an education: I’d have to beg and plead with her to send me her financial paperwork for FAFSA. For those three years, she didn’t send the information until it was too late in the year to do any good or sent it on time but falsified it to show she was earning more money than she was (very long story) so that I wouldn’t be eligible for need-based financial aid. I worked my tail off, and got enough scholarships to cover the very minimal community college costs for two of those years–had to take out a loan for the other. The whole time, I was working two or three jobs at a time, which while necessary (I needed to eat!) also meant that I was still less eligible for financial aid because between me and my parents, although, of course, they weren’t helping me at all, that meant we were “earning” enough to render me ineligible for a lot of the need-based stuff.

When I transferred to a four-year school to finish my degree, I was blessed to have a very helpful financial aid counselor who told me that I might be able to get emancipated from my parents for financial aid purposes, and walked me through the steps to do so. It was made harder in my case because I wasn’t a foster kid, I did have (extremely limited, and for the sake of baby sis who still lived at home) contact with them, and I didn’t have any sort of documentation to prove the tax fraud, her stealing my identity to use in other tax fraud, the sociopathic behavior, and so forth.

However, thanks to some friends and family members who really put their necks on the line for me by making written statements about the ongoing stuff they were aware of (my mother can be extremely vengeful, and if she’d known about this, would have sued them) and that counselor, I was able to get declared emancipated.

A few years later, I walked my sister through the same thing, as our mother was doing to her exactly what she did to me: get her into a private school (mom’s a snob, and believes that her kids shouldn’t go to one of those disgusting public universities with Everyone Else), sign her up for a lot of debt, promise financial help, and then skip out on it. As it was with me, it was difficult but not impossible to get her emancipated; her school was a lot more rigorous in its research, and I suspect that if I hadn’t done this before, she wouldn’t have gotten it, as my school was, with my permission, able to share that they’d gotten me emancipated and why, plus I was able to write up statements with the right “buzzwords,” if you will, to get a financial aid officer’s attention.

Mind you, being emancipated doesn’t mean everything’s scot-free, either. Ironically, you lose a lot of the need-based stuff just because some of it is based on the idea of helping out overstretched parents, not single people out on their own. (Or at least, such was the case a few years ago: things may have changed in the interim.) We still got more than we would have if we relied on mom’s forged tax returns, assuming she’d have even given them to us, or if we couldn’t have gotten her info for the FAFSA at all, but also nowhere near as much as if she’d given us the correct financial information in the first place.
Thank you for sharing your story. I see a lot of similarities between your story and my own, regarding the behavior of our parents toward us, at least. I am sorry that you have had to endure a toxic family of origin. It is incredibly painful. I have been on my own for twenty years, and I am still working on acceptance and healing. I am glad that you were able to figure out a way to get education too. I still remember the joy of realizing that, now that I was married, I was going to be able to get my education at a greatly reduced cost from my same (public) university, and I didn’t have to quit and save up money first.
 
At a guess, this might have been institution-specific because Harvard, like Yale and a couple of the other Ivies, have insanely generous financial aid policies if you and your parents don’t make lots of money. Ten+ years ago when I was doing the college app process, for example, if you got accepted to Yale and your parents made less than 100K/year, you automatically got a full ride. Needless to say, they wanted plenty of documentation for that, and rightly so, but it’s something to bear in mind.
This was about 20 years ago, but I remember the full ride schools (Notre Dame is one of them). But he was applying for graduate school and they wanted his parent’s information.
 
That is a hilarious/sad story.
One of the many gems. Not that he was trying to be a donkey’s butt, but my in-laws were begging my DH to attend his hooding ceremony. The ceremony was in the middle of the week (he was a December grad because he defended in October) and DH told his folks he wasn’t going to attend a dog and pony show. He kindly told them that he “graduated” when he turned in his thesis with the four required signatures. He said that I was there with him and we celebrated by going to our favorite campus restaurant.

They begged, the pleaded, they told him he’d regret it for the rest of his life. Now DH was starting to lose his patience. They were giving him the hard sell. I’m sitting there just wondering how this conversation is going to end, as it wasn’t going to be pretty. They offered us $$ for airfare and hotel. DH said, "How much help did you give us when I was in grad school and DW worked overtime to get me through (we were not state residents, so out-of-state tuition was high)? Crickets.

DH said, “Point made. If I were to attend there would be one invited guest, and that would be my DW.” I started to cry, as my somewhat Aspie hubby is not sentimental.

Please don’t judge him. Those in the know understand that they loved (used loosely) DH for the accolades he could bring to his family. Their love was very conditional. My pray is that they are in a better place.
 
For me it was as easy as saying I do.

But there are other ways it can be done. At least there used to be. I don’t know if governments and universities wised up and closed that loophole or not. 😦
Funny thing, there are still tax loopholes. If you care to be bored with them, just PM me.
 
The redefinition of minors is so bizarre to me. I am a younger GenXer and I left home at 17 and never went home again, except for short visits on the holidays or long weekends. I spent my breaks working and taking summer classes. I never had any help from my parents to pay for college after my freshman year. They made such a scary huge deal about how much I was going to owe them after I got my first job, made me sign a promissory note for the loans they took out for the first year (there was no aid for us, at that time, I presume), and I knew I was facing wage slavery to my parents and the government and the school loan companies. So I decided to opt out of that situation. I was going to quit school and work to save up for tuition. I eloped with my fiancé after our freshman year and never returned home to live (in fact, my parents confiscated my keys when I went to college my freshman year) and was going to enroll in beauty school. Then all of a sudden, I was informed by my school that as an emancipated young adult (which I became through marriage but there are other ways) I qualified for tuition remission. They literally let me go to school for a cheaper tuition and with a very small school loan each year and a steady job, I was able to pay my way through university.

It is a sad fact that university tuition increased because of federal aid and school loan availability. For “kids” that are not being claimed by their parents on taxes or financially supporting their children in any way, there is (was) a more fair tuition/admission system, at least at some of the larger universities.
Good for you that you achieved your dream. I’m sorry about your parents, though. I hope things have improved.
 
Good for you that you achieved your dream. I’m sorry about your parents, though. I hope things have improved.
Thanks!

Sadly with respect to my parents, no things never improved. Just this week I came to the realization that all these years I had been holding onto false hope and that even God Himself would not rewrite the past and restore the destroyed family. This side of eternity, nothing can be restored. So I think that realization is why I am kinda touchy this week, and have been on the forums more participating in threads on family life stuff. I am sad about it and I have been working through it a bit here. Sorry for hijacking the thread with my tangential questions and stories. :o
 
Sure. But if a family is capable of helping, their child is worth helping, and they won’t help, I feel OK getting judgy about that.
I don’t think it is necessarily the case that parents won’t help their kids at all, with anything, just because they don’t agree to help with college. Like you mentioned in an earlier post, parents can help with getting their kids feet on the ground and not just send them out and lock the doors.

The post that I was commenting on had to do with closing the loopholes so families could get out of having the parents’ income considered in financial aid. Everybody wants that, even those of us who are willing to help.
 
Thanks!

Sadly with respect to my parents, no things never improved. Just this week I came to the realization that all these years I had been holding onto false hope and that even God Himself would not rewrite the past and restore the destroyed family. This side of eternity, nothing can be restored. So I think that realization is why I am kinda touchy this week, and have been on the forums more participating in threads on family life stuff. I am sad about it and I have been working through it a bit here. Sorry for hijacking the thread with my tangential questions and stories. :o
Please know that while I cannot completely relate to your situation because I have not walked in your shoes, sadly my DH and I have experienced similar hurts on both sides of our families of origin. DH was not in touch with his mom when she suddenly passed away last year. She became even more toxic after his dad died, and she became co-dependent on her youngest son, who was not leading a Christian life and was not the best influence in her life. So, I feel for you as we felt the same exact way. We now feel that my in-laws now know our heart, despite believing or being told otherwise. God bless.
 
Thank you for that clarification. I mistook your meaning as fully funding university or other vocational training as being a moral requirement for adequate parenting.

I was locked out of the house at 18. I couldn’t believe what was happening at the time, and it took me many years to accept and to forgive. (I was literally dependent upon someone being home and awake for me to be able to enter the family home or access my belongings that yet remained in the home, belongings which were later sold or donated behind my back. Yeah, my parents were well and truly quit of me, despite the fact that I graduated in the top 25 of my high school class and gained admission to a major university and was a regular youth group attendee and very active in my church. It made me lose my faith for a while, but by the grace of God, that laid the foundation for my conversion to Catholicism). I could never be so cruel to anyone, let alone my own children. Our children are being raised in the knowledge that they are going to be welcome to live with us until they decide they are ready to launch. We will provide whatever assistance we can to them, either planning or financial, but we can make no promises ahead of time how much that will be. They will not have carte blanche to go wherever they choose for higher education, unless they can fund it themselves.
I’m so sorry that happened to you.
 
I am so sorry if my thread caused any hurt. I seriously wanted to use the article as a demonstration to engaged or newly married couples about how terrible divorce can be not only from an emotional standpoint but from a financial standpoint. Now that I’m seeing Valentine’s cards and advertisements galore (and dreading tax season), I wanted couples to really, really think and pray for a lasting sacramental marriage.

It was not my intent to bring up sad memories, although I am equally guilty of doing it on this thread. 😦
 
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