Newlyweds struggling with sexual issue

[Jaaanosik]

I do not disagree with anything you have said. I did not mean to make it seem okay for a woman to be treated less than respectfully.
I don’t see where he ‘blames’ her for his masturbation. She said–

That is simply stating a fact. If masturbation is something that you struggle with, then the temptations WILL return if you don’t physically release for a while. That’s just the way we are built, whether it is right or wrong. She also said that he agreed to go about it by NFP because it was important to her. With age, experience, and more maturity, I believe he will come to accept it as what he wants to do also.
I also did not mean to put a lot of responsibility on her, but I wanted to make it very clear what it feels like from the other side of the issue. I wish someone other than me would lay it all out like that for my wife. She does have the responsibilty of caring for his self esteem and feelings and therefore it is important that she know how they are affected by sex or lack of. That doesn’t mean that he can be a total d bag to her and still get some when it is safe…he still has to show her respect so that she will be willing to sacrifice her body as an act of love for him. That’s just what it is (or should be at least)–an ACT OF LOVE. She does something important to him to show him that she loves him, even if it isn’t her favorite thing in the world…kinda like when I bathe all the kids by myself so my wife can watch American Idol, or when I vacuum the floor while she is gone and clean the house so she is surprised when she comes home…That’s what love is about–sacrificing yourself for the one you love.

What many women do not understand and do not realize is that a marital act for good men is an expression of love. Men want to make their spouses happy in this regard as well. Eros and agape can not be separated.
When a man is denied then a confusion comes. Why is he forbidden to love. There is nothing bigger than love God and your neighbor but this seems as a denial of the possibility to love. It’s hard to understand for some men.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

What many women do not understand and do not realize is that a marital act for good men is an expression of love. Men want to make their spouses happy in this regard as well. Eros and agape can not be separated.
When a man is denied then a confusion comes. Why is he forbidden to love. There is nothing bigger than love God and your neighbor but this seems as a denial of the possibility to love. It’s hard to understand for some men.

I agree. This is one of the big things I have had a hard time wrapping my head around since I joined CAF. So many people are so quick to say “live as brother and sister”, or “It should not be so hard to abstain”, or even “You’re wife/husband is too focused on sex”. I simply don’t get it. Sex is the absolute greatest expression of love and when someone, not just a man is repeatedly denied it can make them feel insecure, unloved, and rejected. It is more of an emotional thing than a physical one.

I also have to wonder if the OP should stop using NFP and take what may come. Obviously abstaining is not a mutual decision here. Perhaps it would be better if they didn’t and just let the cards fall where they may.

 

[Castello]

Sex is the absolute greatest expression of love and when someone

This is contrary to Christianity.

Greater love has no man than this, that he lay down his life for his friend.

The greatest expression of love is sacrifice.

 

[lifeisbeautiful]

Yes, it would be easier to not abstain during the fertile times, and possibly conceive. My husband and I are definitely looking forward to having children. This just isn’t a solution to our current problem, however, which is how to live chastely as a married couple. There are times in life when periods of abstinence are necessary. As is the duty of husbands and wives, we have decided that responsible parenthood for us is not actively seeking to conceive at this time, for serious reasons. Starting to have kids right away because my husband has difficulty managing his sex drive isn’t a long-term solution to this problem.

The suggestion was probably not as a solution to the problem, but just a suggestion to make sure the situation contributing to the problem was necessary, it was a good enough reason to put your husband through times of temptation. It sounds like you have already evaluated that, but it is good to put it out there as this is a public forum and people with different levels of knowledge of the Church’s teachings may come through.
He does need to have control over his body, and even if you were to stop avoiding and got pregnant, he would have to abstain, if nothing else, 6 weeks postpartum. A couple can practice chastity in marriage without avoiding pregnancy (and responsible parenthood does not have to include trying to control when when you have children, but I digress), but you are right in your thoughts about chastity in marriage, that his actions are not in line with the teachings of the Church. I think it is good you are looking for resources to help him understand the why behind everything.

 

[CajunsforChrist]

My husband and I struggled with our times of abstinence when we were first married as well. We were very selfish in our thinking and would have sex during our fertile time, but we would use the withdrawl method. We felt terrible for what we had done after every time we would make love but we hadn’t matured enough to realize that we were not only hurting God but ourselves as well including our relationship. Finally, one day we both decided that we were not to do that anymore. The deal was, if we were to have sex during our fertile time, we had to be ready to accept the possibility of a pregnancy. The first cycle after this agreement, there came a night when my husband and I wanted to be intimate and it just happened to be during my fertile time. And we lived up to our promise. That was the first time we had practiced NFP the way God meant for us to and we felt closer than ever in our relationship. And turns out I did get pregnant. Now, I’m not recommending that you get pregnant by being intimate during your fertile time as my husband and I had. That was just our situation. As you’ve said, you don’t think it’s right to get pregnant at this time and God understands that. I truly believe that God meant for us to get pregnant when we did and it took us realizing that our previous sinful ways were wrong and that we were preventing new life from being created. I just can’t ignore the fact that we got pregnant on the first try. Sorry, I’m rambling now. But speaking as a wife with a husband who struggled with masturbation before our marriage, I understand where you’re coming from. I prayed for my husband each and every night for him to learn to abstain and it worked. My point is, prayer is also a very powerful tool in helping your husband learn and understand that what he’s doing is wrong. I will keep you both in my prayers. NFP is a great and powerful tool for couples if it’s used correctly. If anyone doesn’t believe me, look up what the divorce rates are for couples who practice NFP. Good Luck & God Bless!

 

[CajunsforChrist]

(and responsible parenthood does not have to include trying to control when when you have children, but I digress)

I completely agree with this. I feel like God has a plan for everyone and sometimes we try to be controlling of how things in our lives will play out instead of putting it in his hands.

 

[ryecroft]

Actually, his body is doing what a young married man is supposed to do - married people are supposed to have sex and have babies. Only something seriously amiss should keep them from welcoming children as they promised to do at their wedding.

Why do we think that the default for marriage is to refuse children from day 1?

No offense Castello, but it seems like you feel unless there is a life and death reason to use NFP to put off pregnancy, you don’t believe it should be used. I honestly believe if this had been the desire of the Church, they would have said ‘NFP should only be used in cases where the health of the mother is in danger…’ - the Church has left us to ‘prayerfully’ decide if we have a ‘just’ reason to put off getting pregnant. There are many reasons that couples may NEED to put off getting pregnant - and until the Church says differently, it’s between the husband, the wife and God. It’s a hard enough situation to decide without outside pressure.
God Bless

 

[1inICXC]

No offense Castello, but it seems like you feel unless there is a life and death reason to use NFP to put off pregnancy, you don’t believe it should be used. I honestly believe if this had been the desire of the Church, they would have said ‘NFP should only be used in cases where the health of the mother is in danger…’ - the Church has left us to ‘prayerfully’ decide if we have a ‘just’ reason to put off getting pregnant. There are many reasons that couples may NEED to put off getting pregnant - and until the Church says differently, it’s between the husband, the wife and God. It’s a hard enough situation to decide without outside pressure.
God Bless

No, i think it is hard enough of a situation to decide PRECISELY bevause the church didn’t give explicit guidelines. Implicitly, it’s all there but we just close our eyes to that.

If we understood the true meaning of marriage and the blessing that children are, we would also understand just how “just” the reason would have to be for us to counter that.

But in a contraceptive culture, we only grow up understanding OUR needs, OUR wants, OUR desires and we definitely don’t order our lives to serve our children and the blessings God wants to give us through them. We order our lives to serve our careers, our education, our mortgage, our vacations, our social life, our body image etc.

I, personally, wish the Church hadn’t given us the benefit of the doubt and would have been more adamant about the importance of children in marriage , first and foremost.
You want a career, a house paid off, a PH.d, fine, then don’t get married yet.

 

[kbachler]

I completely agree with this. I feel like God has a plan for everyone and sometimes we try to be controlling of how things in our lives will play out instead of putting it in his hands.

Using this argument alone, shouldn’t we quit working and instead simply play the lottery or gamble, thus putting our livelihood in His hands, rather than controlling how we will earn our income?

There are reasons why we work and perform works; it’s not clear to me that these reasons are not applicable to planning all aspects of our lives, including family. God gave us our brains and our ability to plan, along with all the other abilities He gave us. Why would it be in just this one area that we should not use this gift?

I note also that a deeper understanding of just what human sexuality means to physical health (varying of course within individuals) is a relatively recent event, and clearly was not understood at the time that Human Vitae was written. That there are procreative and unitive aspects of sex is clear, but there are also individually important aspects, and the unitive aspects are now understood to be physiologically relatively more important versus the procreative than would have been supposed in the 1960’s. That is, Human Vitae was written with a significant lack of information, information that is still being gathered and understood. Given that, there will eventually be a need to readdress the issue.

 

[ryecroft]

No, i think it is hard enough of a situation to decide PRECISELY bevause the church didn’t give explicit guidelines. Implicitly, it’s all there but we just close our eyes to that.

If we understood the true meaning of marriage and the blessing that children are, we would also understand just how “just” the reason would have to be for us to counter that.

But in a contraceptive culture, we only grow up understanding OUR needs, OUR wants, OUR desires and we definitely don’t order our lives to serve our children and the blessings God wants to give us through them. We order our lives to serve our careers, our education, our mortgage, our vacations, our social life, our body image etc.

I, personally, wish the Church hadn’t given us the benefit of the doubt and would have been more adamant about the importance of children in marriage , first and foremost.
You want a career, a house paid off, a PH.d, fine, then don’t get married yet.

Yes, some do ‘close our eyes to that’, but luckily, the Church in its wisdom decided that if necessary, we would be able to come to a decision - with God’s help in regards to this and also decided that just because some may not use NFP with what they viewed to be the correct reasons - that those of us using it prayerfully would not have to bear the consequences of not having some way to licitly put off pregnancy. Having used NFP, I must say that you and your spouse must truly have a good reason to not be together during fertile times - many who use NFP will attest to this. Perhaps some of us do understand what a ‘blessing’ children are and for that reason put off having them until our circumstances are improved enough (whatever those reasons may be) to feel we are doing the right thing by being together while fertile and promoting a possible pregnancy. I also can attest that just because you use NFP does not mean you are garunted you will not get pregnant - as I have been told in the past ‘God must have wanted you to be pregnant…’ even though we were using NFP as conservatively as possible. It’s wonderful that you feel so open to having children without any caveats - I would thank God that you are in such a situation. I don’t know the reasons (and they aren’t any of my business) as to why the OP has decided to use NFP to put off having children for the time being - but it sounds to me like she planned this with her husband prior to the marriage - and she has made it clear she is not against ever having kids. Personally, I applaud her in this ‘contraceptive culture’ (as you have pointed out) - that she has gone through the training to learn about her fertility and not just gone along with the ‘contraceptive culture’ and just taken a pill.
God Bless
Rye

 

[ryecroft]

Using this argument alone, shouldn’t we quit working and instead simply play the lottery or gamble, thus putting our livelihood in His hands, rather than controlling how we will earn our income?

There are reasons why we work and perform works; it’s not clear to me that these reasons are not applicable to planning all aspects of our lives, including family. God gave us our brains and our ability to plan, along with all the other abilities He gave us. Why would it be in just this one area that we should not use this gift?

I note also that a deeper understanding of just what human sexuality means to physical health (varying of course within individuals) is a relatively recent event, and clearly was not understood at the time that Human Vitae was written.

Excellent point!

 

[lifeisbeautiful]

Using this argument alone, shouldn’t we quit working and instead simply play the lottery or gamble, thus putting our livelihood in His hands, rather than controlling how we will earn our income?

There are reasons why we work and perform works; it’s not clear to me that these reasons are not applicable to planning all aspects of our lives, including family. God gave us our brains and our ability to plan, along with all the other abilities He gave us. Why would it be in just this one area that we should not use this gift?

I note also that a deeper understanding of just what human sexuality means to physical health (varying of course within individuals) is a relatively recent event, and clearly was not understood at the time that Human Vitae was written. That there are procreative and unitive aspects of sex is clear, but there are also individually important aspects, and the unitive aspects are now understood to be physiologically relatively more important versus the procreative than would have been supposed in the 1960’s. That is, Human Vitae was written with a significant lack of information, information that is still being gathered and understood. Given that, there will eventually be a need to readdress the issue.

The Church teaches NFP can be used *if *the couples have serious/just/grave reasons to do so. A couple that does not discern they need to avoid are not being mindless creatures, not using their intelligence/gift!!! In being open (as in not avoiding) to receive these gifts, planning for the possiblity, in living a healthy normal married life including the marital act that could result in conceiving a new child, they are making the choice to be open to God’s blessings. Both unitive and procreative have to be there, that is a given that will never change, and with or without NFP they are, but a couple cannot use NFP without having the right reasons to do so, and in discerning whether or not they should, they are using their brains (and Faith!) already.

BTW, the Church also teaches that work is a duty, so that would not be a good comparison either, and it is one that often comes with having kids :
2427 Human work proceeds directly from persons created in the image of God and called to prolong the work of creation by subduing the earth, both with and for one another.210** Hence work is a duty: “If any one will not work, let him not eat.”**211 Work honors the Creator’s gifts and the talents received from him. It can also be redemptive. By enduring the hardship of work212 in union with Jesus, the carpenter of Nazareth and the one crucified on Calvary, man collaborates in a certain fashion with the Son of God in his redemptive work. He shows himself to be a disciple of Christ by carrying the cross, daily, in the work he is called to accomplish.213 Work can be a means of sanctification and a way of animating earthly realities with the Spirit of Christ.

 

[GraceDK]

What many women do not understand and do not realize is that a marital act for good men is an expression of love. Men want to make their spouses happy in this regard as well. Eros and agape can not be separated.
When a man is denied then a confusion comes. Why is he forbidden to love. There is nothing bigger than love God and your neighbor but this seems as a denial of the possibility to love. It’s hard to understand for some men.

Not only men are denied. if you look on CAF and other Christian forums you also see women feeling rejected sexually. Its no good. Not for anyone.
And of course its an expression of love for women too.

You say, why is he forbidden to love? It seems you are getting too emotional here about the topic… as far as I understand the OP and her husband are in agreement they don’t wanna get pregnant right now, so they are using NFP. Now the man find its hard to abstain to the degree where he threatens to go back to his sinfull ways if the wife does not release him. Tell me, where is the love in that, coz I think the OP’s husband is the one lacking in love and not the OP…

 

[28562]

Now the man find its hard to abstain to the degree where he threatens to go back to his sinfull ways if the wife does not release him.

You are going to have to point that out in the OP’s post. I just don’t see any threats or blame anywhere. He said that abstaining for that period of time makes his temptations return…That’s all. He stated a fact. He didn’t issue any threats.

 

[Castello]

No offense Castello, but it seems like you feel unless there is a life and death reason to use NFP to put off pregnancy, you don’t believe it should be used. I honestly believe if this had been the desire of the Church, they would have said ‘NFP should only be used in cases where the health of the mother is in danger…’ - the Church has left us to ‘prayerfully’ decide if we have a ‘just’ reason to put off getting pregnant. There are many reasons that couples may NEED to put off getting pregnant - and until the Church says differently, it’s between the husband, the wife and God. It’s a hard enough situation to decide without outside pressure.
God Bless

I believe what the Holy Father said. This blogger gives a good breakdown of the serious reasons: cantuar.blogspot.com.au/2012/02/you-can-only-use-nfp-for-grave.html

 

[asd72]

Not only men are denied. if you look on CAF and other Christian forums you also see women feeling rejected sexually. Its no good. Not for anyone.
And of course its an expression of love for women too.

You say, why is he forbidden to love? It seems you are getting too emotional here about the topic… as far as I understand the OP and her husband are in agreement they don’t wanna get pregnant right now, so they are using NFP. Now the man find its hard to abstain to the degree where he threatens to go back to his sinfull ways if the wife does not release him. Tell me, where is the love in that, coz I think the OP’s husband is the one lacking in love and not the OP…

Yes her husband is not a child, he is not forbidden to love, but practicing periodic abstinence and should be equally responsible for maintaining chastity in their marriage.

My understanding of the sexual practices they are involved in during fertile periods is that the husband seems to be doing this to avoid masturbating, but it IS as sinful as masturbating except his wife has been led to sin also, so she is right to refuse to do this.

 

[sainthumbert]

If anyone has any good resources on Catholic spirituality for men, i’d really appreciate if you’d pass them along. And I mean Catholic resources for manly men. Strong, protective, breadwinning, leader-type, football-playing meat-eating manly men.

What? Don’t you mean you need a resource that teaches boys how to become manly men? That is, men who know self-mastery? Just kidding.

Protective? He used to masturbate and sin on his own account but now he has brought you into this sin and has put your mortal soul in jeopardy. He doesn’t sound protective to me.

By the way, you didn’t mention why you are using NFP in the first place. You should know, as other posters have commented on, that it is illicit (sinful) to use NFP if you don’t have a serious/grave reason to avoid children. If you are using NFP without a serious reason, then of course your husband is confused and dismisses NFP as Catholic birth control. How can he grasp the beauty of NFP if you are using it illicitly?

Casti Connubii, Pius XI, December 31, 1930
As St. Augustine admirably deduces from the words of the holy Apostle Saint Paul to Timothy when he says: "The Apostle himself is therefore a witness that marriage is for the sake of generation: ‘I wish,’ he says, ‘young girls to marry.’ And, as if someone said to him, ‘Why?,’ he immediately adds: ‘To bear children, to be mothers of families’… But Christian parents must also understand that they are destined not only to propagate and preserve the human race on earth… The primary end of marriage is the procreation and the education of children…

Humanae Vitae, Paul VI, July 25, 1968
With regard to physical, economic, psychological and social conditions, responsible parenthood is exercised by those who prudently and generously decide to have more children, and by those who, for **serious reasons **and with due respect to moral precepts, decide not to have additional children for either a certain or an indefinite period of time… If therefore there are **well-grounded reasons **for spacing births, arising from the physical or psychological condition of husband or wife, or from external circumstances, the Church teaches that married people may then take advantage of the natural cycles immanent in the reproductive system and engage in marital intercourse only during those times that are infertile, thus controlling birth in a way which does not in the least offend the moral principles which We have just explained.

 

[CajunsforChrist]

The Church teaches NFP can be used if the couples have serious/just/grave reasons to do so. A couple that does not discern they need to avoid are not being mindless creatures, not using their intelligence/gift!!! In being open (as in not avoiding) to receive these gifts, planning for the possiblity, in living a healthy normal married life including the marital act that could result in conceiving a new child, they are making the choice to be open to God’s blessings. Both unitive and procreative have to be there, that is a given that will never change, and with or without NFP they are, but a couple cannot use NFP without having the right reasons to do so, and in discerning whether or not they should, they are using their brains (and Faith!) already.

BTW, the Church also teaches that work is a duty, so that would not be a good comparison either, and it is one that often comes with having kids :
2427 Human work proceeds directly from persons created in the image of God and called to prolong the work of creation by subduing the earth, both with and for one another.210** Hence work is a duty: “If any one will not work, let him not eat.”**211 Work honors the Creator’s gifts and the talents received from him. It can also be redemptive. By enduring the hardship of work212 in union with Jesus, the carpenter of Nazareth and the one crucified on Calvary, man collaborates in a certain fashion with the Son of God in his redemptive work. He shows himself to be a disciple of Christ by carrying the cross, daily, in the work he is called to accomplish.213 Work can be a means of sanctification and a way of animating earthly realities with the Spirit of Christ.

I kept trying to reply to that original post and delete button got the best of me. You summed up basically what I wanted to say.

 

[kbachler]

The Church teaches NFP can be used if the couples have serious/just/grave reasons to do so. A couple that does not discern they need to avoid are not being mindless creatures, not using their intelligence/gift!!! In being open (as in not avoiding) to receive these gifts, planning for the possiblity, in living a healthy normal married life including the marital act that could result in conceiving a new child, they are making the choice to be open to God’s blessings. Both unitive and procreative have to be there, that is a given that will never change, and with or without NFP they are, but a couple cannot use NFP without having the right reasons to do so, and in discerning whether or not they should, they are using their brains (and Faith!) already.

BTW, the Church also teaches that work is a duty, so that would not be a good comparison either, and it is one that often comes with having kids :
2427 Human work proceeds directly from persons created in the image of God and called to prolong the work of creation by subduing the earth, both with and for one another.210** Hence work is a duty: “If any one will not work, let him not eat.”**211 Work honors the Creator’s gifts and the talents received from him. It can also be redemptive. By enduring the hardship of work212 in union with Jesus, the carpenter of Nazareth and the one crucified on Calvary, man collaborates in a certain fashion with the Son of God in his redemptive work. He shows himself to be a disciple of Christ by carrying the cross, daily, in the work he is called to accomplish.213 Work can be a means of sanctification and a way of animating earthly realities with the Spirit of Christ.

Somehow I don’t see how my discussion of “planning” is related to people acting like “mindless creatures.”

A more robust understanding of human sexuality available today also demonstrates quite readily that a robust sex life can be a very serious matter for some people.

The human brain/body only “craves” 4 things (from a physiological perspective): Food, water, sleep, and sex. If the availability of any one (or combination of things) is changed it will impact the others. If you don’t sleep properly, the lack of sleep kicks of a chain or hormonal responses that will lead you to eat.

I’m not arguing that we should be unthinking, if anything, exactly the opposite. But I do point out that the complexity of this system is such that it is very arguable that procreation may be a secondary aspect of sex, rather than the primary.

I’m also not arguing that the conclusions of Human Vitae should change; I am arguing that the text will need to be revised because it is insufficiently robust.

 

[GraceDK]

Somehow I don’t see how my discussion of “planning” is related to people acting like “mindless creatures.”

A more robust understanding of human sexuality available today also demonstrates quite readily that a robust sex life can be a very serious matter for some people.

The human brain/body only “craves” 4 things (from a physiological perspective): Food, water, sleep, and sex. If the availability of any one (or combination of things) is changed it will impact the others. If you don’t sleep properly, the lack of sleep kicks of a chain or hormonal responses that will lead you to eat.

My appetite is great thanks and I sleep well at night, although obliged to live without sex since I am not married.

I’m not arguing that we should be unthinking, if anything, exactly the opposite. But I do point out that the complexity of this system is such that it is very arguable that procreation may be a secondary aspect of sex, rather than the primary.

The Church teaches that procreation is the primary end of sex. The unitive aspect is secondary though both are vital for it to be a moral act.

I’m also not arguing that the conclusions of Human Vitae should change; I am arguing that the text will need to be revised because it is insufficiently robust.