News Article: Mormon aversion to the cross due to the anti-Catholicism of their leaders

[cothrige]

Amen, Parker. There’s some very un-Christian-like Catholics here!:sad_yes:

I worry about what you mean here Christine. I think this topic is very valid, though perhaps a very bad example of drift, but is difficult to handle delicately. I know I asked some probing questions, but I certainly was not trying to be unchristian. Quite the opposite. I asked Parker about his opinion because I wasn’t clear, and because I couldn’t reconcile what I read with what I have seen presented by the Mormons here and elsewhere. Parker for instance seems about as good an example of Christian charity on a board as I have found. He is polite, careful and considerate at all times, that I have noticed at least. But, he is still direct, passionate and critical in his thinking. This is very difficult, as many of my contributions have surely demonstrated, and I am always impressed by it. That is why I asked further about it, in order to learn what the system of thought is behind it. I was not trying to attack or disparage those who disagree with me, which I fear you may have believed to be the case. If, that is, you had my post in mind when you commented.

I just hope anyone reading here is clear about my intent in the questions and does not think I am trying to do anything I am not. And if any of the LDS here did get such an impression then I would like to apologise. I promise I do not intend to attack or defame anyone here, most especially those who have behaved with such honesty and decency when surrounded by so many who are in opposition to their faith.

 

[PaulDupre]

Robert Millet, former Dean of Religious Education at BYU, has given an explanation for Mormon’s attitudes toward the cross that I find illuminating. In Claiming Christ, he writes:

“It appears that crosses were seldom if ever placed on our meetinghouses. Inasmuch as many of our early converts came from a Puritan background, they, like the Puritans, were essentially anti-ceremonial, which included not using crosses.” (100).

So the former Dean of Religious Education at BYU admits what so many LDS on these fora deny - that LDS beliefs and practices grow out of Protestantism, as does Mormonism itself.

 

[PaulDupre]

Parker,

Are you saying that the LDS Church allows in some way for the intentional abortion if the pregnancy is the result of incest or rape?

Yes, that is exactly the Mormon position.

 

[PaulDupre]

Even though this topic is very important, for various reasons I don’t really want to get involved in this conversation. However, I think it might be useful to the conversation to understand that from a Mormon’s perspective, “all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven”, which is the highest kingdom of glory that a person can receive (D&C 137:10). Now, to clarify, this doesn’t mean it is OK to kill children, it just means that we can know that if a child does die or is killed in infancy, they are OK and will have Eternal Life.

Isn’t that sweet? If you kill a child, then that child automatically gets the highest degree of glory. Well then maybe for Mormons, abortion is really doing the child a favor!

Gosh, that makes me feel better about abortion! How about you guys?

 

[dianaiad]

Are you being genuine here? In referring to the troubles of 1838, BYU Professor William Hartley has said that:

“There is no question that Latter-day Saint rangers burned buildings at Millport and Gallatin… It is certain that some Danites played the thief, and it is possible, although unproven, that one or two were murderers.” (My Best For the Kingdom, p. 69).

If you go outside of your convenient, 10 year window, there is Mormon on non-Mormon violence a-plenty.

Did you read your own quote: “possible, though unproven…” there are no names either of victims or perpetrators. Avard, the guy who was the most notorious Danite, was excommunicated from the church BECAUSE he went overboard with the militia mentality.

And it’s not a ten year window. It’s a TWENTY year window, and it’s there because the excuse used here to justify the murders of Joseph and Hyrum in Carthage was that hey, it’s OK, the Mormons murdered plenty of people.

Only it turns out that…they didn’t.

In fact, the only death that can be attributed to LDS hands was in the “Battle of Crooked River,” when the Missourri militia invaded LDS homes, stole all the arms and kidnapped several men. The Mormons put together a rescue mission…but were attacked by the militia. While both sides claimed the OTHER one fired the first shot, there were three men killed; two Mormons and one militiaman.

…because the militia exceeded its authority by a LOT, invading homes, threatening families, confiscating arms, horses and food–and kidnapping people.

The one thing that is true–and provable, by the way, is that the Mormons never shot FIRST…and while there were several murders, rapes and other mayhem, the victims shared a singular commonality; they were LDS.

The perpetrators also shared a commonality; praise from the local pulpit and backslaps from the local authorities.

(shrug)

Mormons were by no means the first group to be treated this way, nor were they the last. Catholics have been on both ends of this sort of thing.

None of this stuff proves that Mormonism is TRUE, by the way. Is that what you are afraid of, that I’m claiming that all this is some sort of proof that we are ‘true?’ It’s not. As I mentioned, we are not unique in this.

But for some reason our enemies don’t want to admit that Mormons were the wronged group here; while being persecuted does not prove us true, admitting that we WERE persecuted unjustly seems to be a problem for the antis–as if THEY believe that unjust persecution proves us true. (shrug)

Therefore they have to believe that the Mormons deserved it, earned it, and those who murdered, raped, stole and drove us from one place to another were actually doing God’s work.

Irony. dontcha love it…

 

[dianaiad]

My question about genuineness comes from the fact that the well-known Mountain Meadows massacre is just outside of the 10-year window (in 1857). And while I don’t know of “proof” of murder during the 10-year window, it’s no secret that the Danites were up to no good and could have murdered during that period (which the BYU professor acknowledges).

There’s also the issue of the Mormon’s relative isolation once they left Nauvoo and before they were well-established in Utah.

So I guess I’m saying that the 10-year window seems arbitrary, and in a self-serving way.

I meant no offense.

First, it was a twenty year window; a decade either side of the Carthage killings.

After all, the justification given here is that the murders of Joseph and Hyrum were justified because of the many murders that the Mormons committed. I don’t know about you, but it seems to me that since there are none BEFORE the events at Carthage, then they can’t be used to justify it…and it’s a little illogical to use anything that happened AFTER Carthage to justify it. I mean, really—Joseph Smith and Hyrum can’t be held responsible for anything that happened AFTER they were murdered, can they?

And, just FYI, though I am aware of the context and the reasons for the MMM, I neither excuse nor justify it. The Fanchers were a bunch of innocent, if abysmally stupid (at the very least, incredibly naive) farmers who did not deserve what happened to them.

Now if those who are attempting to justify Joseph’s murder could say the same thing…but they can’t. They honestly think that those murders in Carthage were justified and acceptable.

 

[zaffiroborant]

And, just FYI, though I am aware of the context and the reasons for the MMM, I neither excuse nor justify it. The Fanchers were a bunch of innocent, if abysmally stupid (at the very least, incredibly naive) farmers who did not deserve what happened to them.

Why were they stupid?

 

[dianaiad]

No, Finrock, Sunstone, Parker. She is absolutely convinced that no Mormon has ever done any wrong. She has done this before, a long time ago. You deal with her.

Jerusha, given my stance on the MMM and the fact that I listed a bunch of serial killers who were most definately Mormon (either at the time or previous to their actions) I think that you need to rethink your claim.

You do tend to exaggerate a lot; which is an accepted rhetorical device. However, it’s generally a good idea to have an actual fact to base that exaggeration on.

(shrug) I asked you to provide evidence of murders committed by Mormons in the ten years before and the ten years after the mob attack on Carthage jail, since you seem to be using those murders to justify what was done to Joseph and Hyrum. YOU made the claim.

That means you get to give us some names, places and proofs. Running away and asking someone else to ‘deal with’ me isn’t quite doing that.

 

[dianaiad]

I gotcha.

Now, I’m going out on a limb here, but I think the reason the 10 year time frame is relevant is because dianaiad is trying to respond to what she believes are attempts of critics of the church to justify the murder of Joseph Smith by claiming that the Mormons instigated the violence and eventual murder because of their violence and murder towards non-Mormons, to include the events of 1838. Like I said, I haven’t been intensely following this flow of discussion, so, I could be wrong.

It is definately no secret that the Danites were up to no good.

Thanks again, for your response.

Kind Regards,
Finrock

You are correct about the reason for the time frame. I think that a twenty year window is reasonable; more than reasonable, given that half of that time frame is AFTER the events at Carthage, and is thus hinting that it might be justifiable to murder someone in punishment for acts committed by someone else years afterwords.

But hey, that also brings this up; if it is justifiable to murder Joseph Smith and Hyrum Smith because of unproven murders maybe committed by someone else years later, can’t the Mormons then use the same logic to defend the murders at Mountain Meadows? After all, nobody here can claim that more people were murdered BY Mormons than Mormons were murdered by others.

Tit for tat, after all. At least the Mormons had Haun’s Mill, the Extermination Order, being thrown out of THREE cities, being forced out in the middle of winter, having an army on the way to attack them…

And the folks here are justifying the murders of Joseph and Hyrum Smith because…they were polygamists and dismantled a printing press? Because of rumors that the Danites were 'up to no good?" (even though there is NO proof–or even evidence–that they killed anybody)

I’m going to put the word ‘irony’ in a sig file to save time.

By the way, guys, I am NOT justifying MMM; I am simply pointing out that if the MMM is unjustifiable, then…so was Carthage. The Fanchers are exactly as guilty of their own deaths as Joseph was of his—and that is, not guilty at all.

 

[ParkerD]

Christine,
Thank you for your very kind and compassionate comment to me earlier. I was away for the evening helping a group of twelve and thirteen year old boys with a yardwork service project for a family.

Cothrige,
Thank you also for your generous comment. I might as well point out that I have four pretty daughters age eighteen to twenty-five, and a younger daughter also not of dating age. The four are supremely virtuous and chaste. Fortunately, they have always been safe, and make very wise dating choices.

A victim of those kinds of violent crimes would be counseled to seek immediate professional counseling, which would be paid for by the LDS church either fully or partially, depending upon whether the professional was compatible with LDS values. The number one concern would be to help the victim return to a sense of God’s love for them, with a huge amount of patience and listening and true compassion for the extreme pain of the situation. I just cannot imagine the pain of either of those situations.

I am grateful that at least two very kind Catholics reading here have understood to some extent my comments supportive of total compassion and no use of judgmental words by anyone who would interface with those kinds of victims, period. Christ can heal deep wounds in process of time through loving compassion of supportive people, but I don’t see how that healing can take place fully if a victim becomes subjected to punishing and what I would consider abusive language before they even make a crisis-provoked decision (if some who have written about this topic really meant what they wrote–I hope they would have more decency in the real world than that.) Again, peace to all. Sorry to be off-topic again, but I did want to thank Christine and Cothrige.

 

[Finrock]

I worry about what you mean here Christine. I think this topic is very valid, though perhaps a very bad example of drift, but is difficult to handle delicately. I know I asked some probing questions, but I certainly was not trying to be unchristian. Quite the opposite. I asked Parker about his opinion because I wasn’t clear, and because I couldn’t reconcile what I read with what I have seen presented by the Mormons here and elsewhere. Parker for instance seems about as good an example of Christian charity on a board as I have found. He is polite, careful and considerate at all times, that I have noticed at least. But, he is still direct, passionate and critical in his thinking. This is very difficult, as many of my contributions have surely demonstrated, and I am always impressed by it. That is why I asked further about it, in order to learn what the system of thought is behind it. I was not trying to attack or disparage those who disagree with me, which I fear you may have believed to be the case. If, that is, you had my post in mind when you commented.

I just hope anyone reading here is clear about my intent in the questions and does not think I am trying to do anything I am not. And if any of the LDS here did get such an impression then I would like to apologise. I promise I do not intend to attack or defame anyone here, most especially those who have behaved with such honesty and decency when surrounded by so many who are in opposition to their faith.

Hi cothrige!

I don’t think Christine’s comments were directed at you. In fact, I want to thank you for your good example.

Goodnight.

Kind Regards,
Finrock

 

[Finrock]

Isn’t that sweet? If you kill a child, then that child automatically gets the highest degree of glory. Well then maybe for Mormons, abortion is really doing the child a favor!

Gosh, that makes me feel better about abortion! How about you guys?

Hi PaulDupre! Good evening and I hope you have had a wonderful day.

I whole heartedly believe that God’s justice and mercy are without bounds. I also agree with you that it is truly sweet that innocent children will be wholly saved by the grace of Jesus Christ.

I would hope that just because infants are saved through the grace of Christ, it doesn’t make you feel better about abortions.

Be well, PaulDupre!

Kind Regards,
Finrock

 

[GodIsGracious]

I would hope that just because infants are saved through the grace of Christ, it doesn’t make you feel better about abortions.

You realize PaulDupre was being facetious, right?

 

[Jerusha]

Diana, I am collecting evidence. Here is something interesting:WARSAW SIGNALExtra.] Warsaw, Illinois, September 18, 1845. [Extra.Another Brutal Murder. We are called upon to record another murder of a most brutal character, committed by the Mormons on yesterday. About 12 o’clock a party of ten men were riding across the prairie near Bear Creek, where they fell in with the Sheriff’s Mormon posse. The latter immediately fired on them without provocation, and wounded a horse and one of the party, a young Irishman named Sam’l M’Bratney, a teamster in the employ of Gould & Mellen; shot him, and after he was down, stabbed him with a sword in several places, and cut his throat and head in a most revolting manner. They then left him in the open prairie, taking his horse with the, Young M’Bratney was one of the most quiet, inoffensive and industrious young men in this community, and was respected and esteemed by all who knew him. His parents reside near Clayton in Adams County…WARSAW SIGNALExtra.] Warsaw, Illinois, September 30, 1845. [Extra.Arrest of Col. Davenport’s Murderers, We learn by the Western Belle, that on Sunday night last, three of Col. Davenport’s murders, who are Mormons, were arrested at the mouth of Devil’s Creek, Lee county, Iowa. The circumstances which led to the arrest are these: About two weeks since, a gun was accidently discovered in a pool near the house of a Mormon by the name of Redmond [sic, Redding?]. Further search being made, a pistol was also discovered. These were taken to Fort Madison, and there the gun was identified as being the fowling piece which belonged to Col. Davenport. Col. D’s son was sent for, and on his appearance appearance, not only identified the gun, but also produced the mate to the pistol. – Writs were immediately issued for the apprehension of the two Redmond’s who, hearing that the Sheriff was coming for them, collected ten of their gang to resist the service of process. The Sheriff being apprised of this, ordered out the Fort Madison Military Company and proceeded to Redmond’s house on Sunday night last, where they surrounded the premises and took the scroundrels prisoner. The Redmonds are the men who harbored the Hodges on the night before the murder of [Miller &] Leisse. There is said to be other suspicious circumstances which will make out a strong case against the Redmonds and one of their party… sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/IL/sign1845.htm

 

[Jerusha]

And this is by no less a personage than William Smith"A horrid circumstance took place on the following evening, which I must relate. – Arvine [sic] Hodge was crossing a field-path to his lodgings, when he was waylaid and killed, being cut, beat, and mangled in a most shocking manner, within twenty rods of Brigham Young’s house, which at the time was surrounded by his own personal police guard, who, as some of them acknowledged, stood within fifty yards of where the murder was committed, and distinctly heard the murderous blows, and the cries of the victim. Sister Young, also, said that she heard them more than once. Young was not at home when the deed was done, but, it is said that in honor to him the murdered man with cries for help, ran some twenty rods, and fell in the road before the house and expired. It is said that although he had his senses til the last, he would say no more about his murderer than that he was a friend; and called on Young to lay hands upon him. This story was told by Young’s police, who, be it remembered, stood within fifty yards of where this awful murder was perpetrated, who heard the blows given, and also the cries for help, but who, at the same time, saw no man or men, who could have performed the awful deed. It will be recollected that, on the examination, it was ascertained that Arvine Hodge had received four fatal stabs in the side, each blow sundering a rib, and sufficient to cause instant death, besides the appearance of cruel bruises made by heavy clubs upon the head. It is true no doubt that he struggled hard for life, but is it probable, I would ask, that with such fatal wounds from the knife, and heavy blows from the assassin’s clubs, that he could have retained physical strength enough to run for aid, or mental power enough to ask for the laying on of hands? And especially for one whom he had every reason to believe to be his most inveterate enemy? It was at this juncture of these sad proceedings, that the information reached my ears, advising me to keep a good guard about my house, or I might very probably share the fate of Arvine Hodge. In consequence of such information, I summoned my kind friends who watched over my safety for two or three weeks; The necessity of my doing this prompted me to write a letter to B. Young, stating to him that I did not feel my safe in the hands of his police. The answer returned to me was from John Taylor, to the effect that I should meet the council the same day at six o’clock in the evening. Accordingly at the hour specified, I repaired to the place of meeting, not expecting, however, to find any one present save the “Twelve,” or the Bishops. But on entering the room on the third story of the Masonic Hall, what was my surprize to find some fifty or sixty policemen all armed with their Bowie knives, pistols, and hickory clubs. How much more too, was my surprize, when after my entrance I found the door guarded, and the man whom I had supposed a particular friend of mine, chuckling with sparkling eyes to think he had me in his power. I was called upon by Brigham Young to make known my grievances. I answered the call, and in fervent tones both long and loud, spoke of my grievances and of my two brothers’ deaths, and of the almost entire desolation of the remnant of my father’s family; – that I had returned from a long mission, and wished to settle in the land of my ancestors, and that where the bodies of my brother’s lay, I wished to live in peace, and claim the protection due to me. I told them that I considered my right to teach the church altogether unimpeachable; as was also my right to counsel the police, and to assist in controlling the public sentiment. Further, that if the brethren did not want me or my councils, to announce such a sentiment and I would leave them. Let, said I, the Twelve say so – Let the Bishops say so – Let the police say so, and I am gone! But mark it, said I, where I go, there also the Smith family go, and with them also goes the Priesthood." All of these murders are on the same web-page, right next to each other.

 

[ParkerD]

Meanwhile, back on the topic:

One of Christ’s major teachings is that what we are and who we are will be shown in our countenance. In the Sermon on the Mount, He taught, “The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.” (Matthew 5:22) I suppose others are like me in that they can see the light radiating from people who give off light because of what is in their heart.

He also taught, “Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.” (Matthew 5:16) “They” will gorify your Father which is in heaven" if (1) they feel loved, (2) they feel valued, (3) they feel respected, and (4) they feel that how one has treated them or others is how their Father which is in Heaven would treat them under like circumstances.

The Apostle John taught in 1 John 3: 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

As the heart is purified, the countenance of the person radiates light from within. As a person is able to leave behind past grudges, past hurts, things done wrongly to them or to their ancestors or to those they love, or things done wrongly by them for which they have sought sincere forgiveness, they can receive the inner peace promised by the Savior, and that inner peace will be manifested in how they treat others in every situation they encounter. They will radiate peace and generate peace because they feel peace deep within their soul. This is one of the major messages of the gospel, the good news for humankind. I received a small press release this morning about a new book, including the following:

“This new book brings the basic dipper and bucket metaphor to life through the story of a young boy named Felix. In How Full Is Your Bucket? For Kids, Felix begins to see how every interaction he has with others in a day either fills or empties his bucket. Felix then realizes that everything he says or does to other people fills or empties their buckets as well.”

When BYU was asking for the opportunity to establish the Jerusalem Center which has been built there, they promised that the students would not proselyte in any way. The person considering the request evidently said something to the effect that “we trust that you will not proselyte, but what are you going to do about their eyes?”

Have a good day, all.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Meanwhile, back on the topic:

The topic is:****** News Article: Mormon aversion to the cross due to the anti-Catholicism of their leaders**

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Meanwhile, back on the topic:

One of Christ’s major teachings is that what we are and who we are will be shown in our countenance. In the Sermon on the Mount, He taught, “The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.” (Matthew 5:22) I suppose others are like me in that they can see the light radiating from people who give off light because of what is in their heart.

He also taught, “Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.” (Matthew 5:16) “They” will gorify your Father which is in heaven" if (1) they feel loved, (2) they feel valued, (3) they feel respected, and (4) they feel that how one has treated them or others is how their Father which is in Heaven would treat them under like circumstances.

The Apostle John taught in 1 John 3: 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

As the heart is purified, the countenance of the person radiates light from within. As a person is able to leave behind past grudges, past hurts, things done wrongly to them or to their ancestors or to those they love, or things done wrongly by them for which they have sought sincere forgiveness, they can receive the inner peace promised by the Savior, and that inner peace will be manifested in how they treat others in every situation they encounter. They will radiate peace and generate peace because they feel peace deep within their soul. This is one of the major messages of the gospel, the good news for humankind. I received a small press release this morning about a new book, including the following:

“This new book brings the basic dipper and bucket metaphor to life through the story of a young boy named Felix. In How Full Is Your Bucket? For Kids, Felix begins to see how every interaction he has with others in a day either fills or empties his bucket. Felix then realizes that everything he says or does to other people fills or empties their buckets as well.”

When BYU was asking for the opportunity to establish the Jerusalem Center which has been built there, they promised that the students would not proselyte in any way. The person considering the request evidently said something to the effect that “we trust that you will not proselyte, but what are you going to do about their eyes?”

Have a good day, all.

God is full of forgiveness. He is not here to condemn us, he is here to give us peace and security in the knowledge that we are his children and he cares for us. That includes ALL of his children, including Mormons!

There seems to be too much animosity from some now Catholic ex-Mormons here. Sort of a mob mentality, like what Joseph Smith was confronted with. We should all remember about what Jesus said about casting the first stone.

 

[RebeccaJ]

We should all remember about what Jesus said about casting the first stone.

Indeed, this holier than thou posturing by mormons is getting old.

 

[ParkerD]

The topic is:****** News Article: Mormon aversion to the cross due to the anti-Catholicism of their leaders**

What I wrote is an underlying reason why Mormons don’t wear crosses–that’s why it is germaine to the topic. I never said anything about “holier than thou” nor implied it. (Maybe the Jerusalem Center comment seemed to infer that, but it could have been said about Catholic students also with the glow of following Christ in their eyes also, right?)

I said that what we are reflects in our eyes, because that is what Jesus taught. It is symbolic but also literal. It applies across all cultures.