News Article: Mormon aversion to the cross due to the anti-Catholicism of their leaders

[jessicaAKAmommy]

oops.

OK, That’s what I get for going into ‘react mode’ without reading the rest of the thread. I went off…and it was a simple misunderstanding.

Its OK! And BTW I don’t justify what the mob did, people did awful things back then (makes you wonder how we’ll look in 150 years ) I just don’t buy the “like a lamb to the slaughter” thing. No one deserves to be murdered, but he played some part in the events. There are, after all, three sides to every story: one sides’, the other’s, and the truth somewhere in the middle.

 

[RebeccaJ]

First, it doesn’t matter what you CALL the charges, if they are trumped up, they are trumped up.

Trumped up, I suppose, is one way of twisting history.

Second, ‘domestic terrorism’ was not the charge. Joseph was arrested because he and the town council dismantled a printing press after the owners (who had just two months previous plotted to assassinate Joseph and other church leaders) used it to print a rather virulent anti-Mormon paper that called for violence and terrorism AGAINST the Mormons. (which, by the way, happens to be illegal and is called ‘domestic terrorism’ today…the penalty for which is jail time and, oh…confiscation of the materials and equipment used to promote such actions)

Wow. Let’s see, Smith claims to everyone that no one in the community of Nauvoo is practicing polygmay. NO ONE. He makes doctrinal with an entry in your D&C. Problem is, there are people who know that he and others are. And that Smith has grand ideas to take over the US. THIS is what was printed by the Expositor. The truth of the polygamy that was being practiced and Smith’s “prophecies” that the Mormons were going to make a nice little theocracy out of the United States.

WHY do you think Smith ordered the press destroyed?

But it was a good excuse, y’see. The charge of ‘treason’ was added so that Joseph and his brother could be kept in jail while the mob was gathered. That charge was bogus, and no historical legal expert believes that it would have been kept past morning. Of course, it didn’t have to, did it?

The charge of treason was added because of Smith’s actions.

By the way, I wasn’t claiming that Joseph was unarmed. However, the 200 men who were attacking him thought that they were unarmed. That they were not came as a nasty surprise. I wonder how many men they thought would have been necessary to go after someone they KNEW had a five shooter?

So tell me; do YOU think that it was acceptable for 200 men to attack prisoners that they thought were unarmed because those prisoners had actually taken a hammer to a PRINTING PRESS.???

No one here is in support of murder. But claiming the anger at Smith & Co was over a printing press is white washing history to the extreme.

I’m sorry, but this is one of the things that really riles me. That anybody could defend the actions of that mob and those who sent them for any reason is astounding. That anybody could actually figure that Joseph deserved this because he actually had the nerve to defend himself with an inadequate misfiring pistol is mind boggling…and to actually think, or claim, that what happened to Joseph and Hyrum was in ANY way acceptable because they broke up a bloody PRINTING PRESS???

Yeah, it would be pretty incredible if that’s all it were about. And Diana, such language.

Examining causes with dispassion is one thing. If Joseph hadn’t broken up that printing press, it is possible that he wouldn’t have been killed at that time. However, given the extreme anti-Mormon feeling of the area and the time, someone would have come up with something, and another excuse would have been used.

Smith would have come up with something on his own. His actions, one after the other, were anything but what happens in a civil society.

However, nothing Joseph did, or could have done, justifies what happened to him. Nothing. The mob and the people who sent it were guilty of murder, and nothing, but NOTHING, excuses it.

I agree. He should have gone to trial and have been sent to prison. Mormonism would then be without their “martyr” and only have to show what he truly was: a criminal.

 

[MelanieAnne]

I think I have noticed inconsistancies in their teachings. It is just me or do they shift on doctrine through the years?

Yes, Mormon Doctrine appears to be evolving into something more “palatable”. The more unusual things are either changed or hidden. This phenomenon has been discussed on several threads in this forum, so it’s not “just you”

 

[Religio71]

it appears that the salvation through Jesus Christ not only applies to us on Earth, but also to those on other planets:

lightplanet.com/mormons/basic/gospel/worlds.html

Never heard of this until now.

 

[shuzo1189]

Yes, Mormon Doctrine appears to be evolving into something more “palatable”. The more unusual things are either changed or hidden. This phenomenon has been discussed on several threads in this forum, so it’s not “just you”

Or whenever say the United States Government has a qualm or two.

 

[zerinus]

it appears that the salvation through Jesus Christ not only applies to us on Earth, but also to those on other planets:

lightplanet.com/mormons/basic/gospel/worlds.html

Never heard of this until now.

That is true. LDS doctrine teaches that just as Jesus is the creator not only of this earth, but of all that God has created (John 1:3); he is also the Savior and Redeemer of all of God’s creations. However, I don’t like the secular / worldly language in which that article tries to express it. I prefer the scriptural language better:

D&C 76:

23 For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father—

24 That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God.

---

43 Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him.

zerinus

 

[Catholic20064]

Mormons and The Cross

Does it surprise anyone that Mormons are anti-Catholic? They come here like wolves in sheep’s clothing, but we really all know they consider the Catholic Church to be the whore of Babylon. David O. McKay’s anti-Catholicism surprises me some because he seemed like a reasonable fellow, but he had imbibed all of the anti-Catholicism of early Mormonism and extended it to the rejection of the cross. That’s why Mormons actually claim Jesus’ atonement occurred in the Garden of Gethsemane rather than on the cross – they run from the cross even though the Book of Mormon loudly proclaims it! They don’t even believe their own Book of Mormon on so many issues. That should help us understand the quicksand their “restoration” sits upon.

 

[dianaiad]

(regarding the ‘lamb to the slaughter’ quote and you ‘not buying it.’

Well, that depends upon how you view the whole 'lamb to the slaughter thing. Now me, I’m an old farm gal…when the farmer is about to kill the lamb, or the pig, or the cow–if they know what’s coming, or even if they don’t understand the situation they are in but are uncomfortable, they WILL fight back; the lamb will kick, and so will the cow and the pig. That those kicks might even cause bruises doesn’t make the futility of the kicks any less: the lamb won’t win his life. What marks the phrase is the futility of that fight.

Joseph did not have to go to Carthage, y’know. He got talked into it–and his wife Emma was one of the talkers. His remark was pretty apt; he knew exactly what sort of risk he was headed for. The “lamb to the slaughter’ part was his volunteering to go and put himself in the hands of his enemies upon THEIR promise to protect his life. he said as he set out that he was going 'as a lamb to the slaughter…”

He WAS wrong about that, actually. Lambs don’t really understand that ‘slaughter’ was where they were headed. Joseph did.

He certainly had NO reason to trust in the promises of the authorities.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Well, that depends upon how you view the whole 'lamb to the slaughter thing. Now me, I’m an old farm gal…when the farmer is about to kill the lamb, or the pig, or the cow–if they know what’s coming, or even if they don’t understand the situation they are in but are uncomfortable, they WILL fight back; the lamb will kick, and so will the cow and the pig. That those kicks might even cause bruises doesn’t make the futility of the kicks any less: the lamb won’t win his life. What marks the phrase is the futility of that fight.

Joseph did not have to go to Carthage, y’know. He got talked into it–and his wife Emma was one of the talkers. His remark was pretty apt; he knew exactly what sort of risk he was headed for. The “lamb to the slaughter’ part was his volunteering to go and put himself in the hands of his enemies upon THEIR promise to protect his life. he said as he set out that he was going 'as a lamb to the slaughter…”

He WAS wrong about that, actually. Lambs don’t really understand that ‘slaughter’ was where they were headed. Joseph did.

He certainly had NO reason to trust in the promises of the authorities.

He did know that he would probably die.

On June 22, 1844, five days before his death, he wrote: “I told Stephen Markham that if I and Hyrum were ever taken again we should be massacred, or I was not a prophet of God”.

Joseph Smith the Mormons were treated abominably in Missouri, subjected to mob violence, vigilantism and imprisoned on trumped up charges. However, Smith knew he would not die in Liberty Jail. Joseph said on the morning after their capture after the 1838 Mormon War that “the word of the Lord came to me last night that … whatever we may suffer during this captivity, not one of our lives shall be taken”.

 

[Catholic20064]

He did know that he would probably die.

On June 22, 1844, five days before his death, he wrote: “I told Stephen Markham that if I and Hyrum were ever taken again we should be massacred, or I was not a prophet of God”.

Joseph Smith the Mormons were treated abominably in Missouri, subjected to mob violence, vigilantism and imprisoned on trumped up charges. However, Smith knew he would not die in Liberty Jail. Joseph said on the morning after their capture after the 1838 Mormon War that “the word of the Lord came to me last night that … whatever we may suffer during this captivity, not one of our lives shall be taken”.

How do we know that he said this?

 

[CHRISTINE77]

How do we know that he said this?

It’s documented. You can look it up on the Internet. Check out Prophesies of Joseph Smith.

 

[Catholic20064]

It’s documented. You can look it up on the Internet. Check out Prophesies of Joseph Smith.

I don’t believe it when known liars make up quotes supposedly attributed to Joseph Smith. We know the Rocky Mountain prophecy, quoted in the same book no doubt, has no basis in fact:

mrm.org/rocky-mountain-prophecy

 

[CHRISTINE77]

I don’t believe it when known liars make up quotes supposedly attributed to Joseph Smith. We know the Rocky Mountain prophecy, quoted in the same book no doubt, has no basis in fact:

mrm.org/rocky-mountain-prophecy

I know the first quote was the last entry in his diary. Why would someone make up those quotes? Why are you so disbelieving?

Honestly, I think Joseph Smith was rather visionary. He may have been bad at handling money, but he had a lot of dreams (prophesies and plans) and the leadership to make his church a reality. Brigham Young really made his dreams come to fruition, because he totally believed in Joseph Smith’s vision.

 

[Catholic20064]

I know the first quote was the last entry in his diary. Why would someone make up those quotes? Why are you so disbelieving?

Honestly, I think Joseph Smith was rather visionary. He may have been bad at handling money, but he had a lot of dreams (prophesies and plans) and the leadership to make his church a reality. Brigham Young really made his dreams come to fruition, because he totally believed in Joseph Smith’s vision.

The fruit of Joseph Smith in Brigham Young’s Utah was a dictatorial theocracy where women were treated practically as slaves in polygamous relationships that many of them didn’t want. Why would I believe in Joseph Smith when I’m a believing Catholic? Joseph Smith was a top-rate deceiver who used his position to strong arm women into polygamy. If the women didn’t bow to his will he smeared them in public when they outed him. See Sarah Pratt among others:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah_Marinda_Bates_Pratt#Criticism_in_the_local_and_Mormon_Press

Brigham Young hijacked the Mormon Church from Joseph Smith III because Joseph Smith III and Emma Smith rejected polygamy. He was not an admirable man.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

The fruit of Joseph Smith in Brigham Young’s Utah was a dictatorial theocracy where women were treated practically as slaves in polygamous relationships that many of them didn’t want. Why would I believe in Joseph Smith when I’m a believing Catholic? Joseph Smith was a top-rate deceiver who used his position to strong arm women into polygamy. If the women didn’t bow to his will he smeared them in public when they outed him. See Sarah Pratt among others:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah_Marinda_Bates_Pratt#Criticism_in_the_local_and_Mormon_Press

Brigham Young hijacked the Mormon Church from Joseph Smith III because Joseph Smith III and Emma Smith rejected polygamy. He was not an admirable man.

Well, I’m a Catholic too, but I don’t have this hatred of Mormons that you seem to have. I think both of those guys were pretty incredible. And look at their legacies - the Mormon Church is huge.

I don’t agree with polygamy, but I don’t think that’s the only thing people should look at when they see the founders. Look at what a beautiful, well-planned city SLC is among other things.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Well, I’m a Catholic too, but I don’t have this hatred of Mormons that you seem to have. I think both of those guys were pretty incredible. And look at their legacies - the Mormon Church is huge.

I don’t agree with polygamy, but I don’t think that’s the only thing people should look at when they see the founders. Look at what a beautiful, well-planned city SLC is among other things.

Look at the $2 billion dollars the mormon church is spending building multi-million dollar condos, office space and a mall, in that city.

sltrib.com/News/ci_12151266

 

[why_me]

Look at the $2 billion dollars the mormon church is spending building multi-million dollar condos, office space and a mall, in that city.

sltrib.com/News/ci_12151266

Well, Rebecca, you can always move to Detroit. I hear that there are fewer mormons in detroit and a lot more catholics. But then again, I hear that Detroit is a decaying city.

Lets look at it this way: You will have a beautiful mall to buy your Mrs. Field’s cookies. And if you are lucky, you can also buy a nice condo…and one thing I can tell you…it beats living in Detroit.

youtube.com/watch?v=KNx-guWyVgM

 

[Stephen168]

Three different Mormon Wars but no Oneida Wars, Shaker Wars, Adventists Wars, or Amana Wars

 

[why_me]

Three different Mormon Wars but no Oneida Wars, Shaker Wars, Adventists Wars, or Amana Wars

God does work in mysterious ways. Some lds may claim that satan was working to destroy god’s church. The Mormon War was a defensive war but later JS did come to terms that he may have made a mistake with his vibrant speeches. The mormons were attacked time and again. It really wasn’t until Sidney Rigdon’s Salt Sermon that the mormons began to defend themselves. After that sermon certain mormons organized themselves into militias and danites. Both were designed to protect the lds from mob violence. However it was not until the Haun Hill Massacre where mormon children were killed that JS began to see how he may have made a mistake not discouraging the danites and the mormon militants. The missourians where not nice people.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Well, Rebecca, you can always move to Detroit. I hear that there are fewer mormons in detroit and a lot more catholics. But then again, I hear that Detroit is a decaying city.

Lets look at it this way: You will have a beautiful mall to buy your Mrs. Field’s cookies. And if you are lucky, you can also buy a nice condo…and one thing I can tell you…it beats living in Detroit.

youtube.com/watch?v=KNx-guWyVgM

your point? mine was, $2 million condo…or shelter for the poor…your church made the decision, not Detroit.