NFP and contraception

[copperblade]

Then why even bother using the “pill as an abortaficient” argument anyway? Clearly it doesn’t make a difference as long as the method is Church approved, right?

I don’t think most people know that miscarriages are higher when using NFP to avoid having children. (By the way, I think using the term NFP is imprecise because we’re really talking about avoiding having children through “natural” means, not really NFP in its entirety which could include trying to have sex on fertile days.) I think if that was in the forefront of everyone’s mind, they probably wouldn’t use the argument.

 

[LaSainte]

As near as I can tell, this is not the position of most.

As correlation does not imply causation, the miscarriage data is a red herring designed to deflect the truth.
Please. A 15% higher chance of miscarriage in women who have had previous miscarriages when the egg was fertilized on the fringes of fertility as opposed to during peak fertility is irrefutable evidence. This was a large, well-documented study. Face the facts.

Only because one method is consistent with God’s design of the human, man and women, and the other is not. What is of the utmost importance is Truth.And apparently, the truth is that whether ornot a method causes abortions has no effect on its morality. Nice.

Because it is one more piece of evidence support the immorality of ABC.

Who engages in non-fertile intercouse with the intent to create miscarriages? Since ABC is immoral it can never be justified.

It is immoral because the Church says so, regardless of intent, and regardless of whether or not the approved method causes the death of he mother or her unborn children. Does this seem in the least bit wrong to anyone else???

The fact is, that part of he reason NFP so “effective”, is because it can cause spontaneous abortions. This is wrapped into their success rates. So yes, for a woman to use NFP knowing this, she is tacitly saying that she accepts these spontaneous abortions of her own children as collateral damage to not getting pregnant and not using an unapproved form of birth control. Sorry, but it’s true.

Why is this not a valid argument?

Because it doesn’t hold up to the immorality of causing your own children to be aborted simply because for some mysterious reason, semen is treated as liquid platinum and preventing it from fertilizing an egg through any other means than NFP is somehow more immoral than knowingly causing the abortion/miscarriage of who knows how many embryos.

 

[Good_Daughter]

Augustine would repeat my previous comment.

So St. Augustine would say sex between a married couple without ‘procreative intent’ is prohibited and permitted?

Is this a typo? If you intend to be procreative, you can’t say you are not intending to beget.

You asked this question of LittleDeb, so please see her detailed explanation of the term ‘procreative’ in post #520. Unless you understand what she’s saying in that post, you will not understand current Catholic teaching on the marital embrace, rendering a look at the past less fruitful.

 

[Warrior1979]

Who engages in non-fertile intercouse with the intent to create miscarriages?

FWIW, I don’t think anyone does, but it doesn’t change that fact that it occurs at a higher rate than simply having sex during the fertile period, or even at random. I don’t think the ignorance argument flies with the Church.

It may be that the increase is acceptable because it is a “naturally” occurring event. But I don’t think we’ll ever know. We don’t know if the Church knew about this when they made up the rules pertaining to NFP, nor have they addressed this particular issue to the best of my knowledge. I don’t expect them to either, since it is a opening a can of worms.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

naprotechnology.com/abortion.htm

Here is a study on causes of miscarriage. There is more information at the link, here is just a section.

Spontaneous abortion is defined as the spontaneous loss of pregnancy prior to the 20th gestational week of pregnancy. Pregnancy losses which occur during this period of time are said to occur in about 15 percent of pregnancies. At the same time, the risk of miscarriage increases proportionately to the number of previous miscarriages experienced. Unfortunately, a definite cause has been difficult to determine. Over the years, miscarriages have been observed as a somewhat “normal” finding. Often it has been thought to be “nature’s way” of ending a pregnancy which was doomed to fail in any regard. However, there has developed a somewhat more aggressive approach over the last 5 to 10 years towards evaluation and management of women with spontaneous abortion. It is now well recognized that a definition of recurrent pregnancy loss includes two or more consecutive spontaneous miscarriages and that this warrants a full evaluation. Furthermore, it is becoming more and more recognized that there appears to be an association between infertility and spontaneous abortion.

 

[Good_Daughter]

A 15% higher chance of miscarriage in women who have had previous miscarriages when the egg was fertilized on the fringes of fertility as opposed to during peak fertility is irrefutable evidence. This was a large, well-documented study.

I must be missing something. How, using NFP, is an egg “fertilized on the fringes of fertility”? If you can answer directly that’s great, but if you prefer to refer me to another post, I’d appreciate that too. I’m really trying to follow your argument as I find it interesting.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

I must be missing something. How, using NFP, is an egg “fertilized on the fringes of fertility”? If you can answer directly that’s great, but if you prefer to refer me to another post, I’d appreciate that too. I’m really trying to follow your argument as I find it interesting.

I’m not sure.

I understand Billings and Creighton.

Ovulation tends to be a one day occurence. The egg is released once a cycle (sometimes more than one egg in a 12-24 hour window.

Days prior to ovulation are normally fertile depending on the presence of fertile mucus, and it’s ability to keep sperm cells alive. After ovulation, the egg lives about 24 hours.

I don’t see how conception could occur during infertility== conception cannot occur without the egg. If an egg is present then that would negate the infertility.

 

[Warrior1979]

I don’t see how conception could occur during infertility== conception cannot occur without the egg. If an egg is present then that would negate the infertility.

It can happen for many reasons, one of which is by accident. The same thing happens with the pill, whose function is to stop ovulation…yet it occasionally happens anyway.

 

[Good_Daughter]

davidv;8041754:

Please. A 15% higher chance of miscarriage in women who have had previous miscarriages when the egg was fertilized on the fringes of fertility as opposed to during peak fertility is irrefutable evidence. This was a large, well-documented study.

Are you talking about the study you linked to in post #787? Couples using modern methods of NFP aren’t having sex ‘on the fringes of fertility’, they’re abstaining until infertility. Your article refered only to the largely abandoned ‘rythm method’ of NFP. (Please correct me if I’ve cited the wrong article.)

 

[Good_Daughter]

I’m not sure.

I understand Billings and Creighton.

Ovulation tends to be a one day occurence. The egg is released once a cycle (sometimes more than one egg in a 12-24 hour window.

Days prior to ovulation are normally fertile depending on the presence of fertile mucus, and it’s ability to keep sperm cells alive. After ovulation, the egg lives about 24 hours.

I don’t see how conception could occur during infertility== conception cannot occur without the egg. If an egg is present then that would negate the infertility.

Sorry for the confusion Mary Gail, but I deleted that post after reviewing the thread. Please see my newer, slightly more enlightened post above.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

Sorry for the confusion Mary Gail, but I deleted that post after reviewing the thread. Please see my newer, slightly more enlightened post above.

No problem!

 

[davidv]

Please. A 15% higher chance of miscarriage in women who have had previous miscarriages when the egg was fertilized on the fringes of fertility as opposed to during peak fertility is irrefutable evidence. This was a large, well-documented study. Face the facts.

Since practictioner of NFP who are attempting to delay pregnancy are waiting until no egg is present, your data is meaningless diversion.

And apparently, the truth is that whether ornot a method causes abortions has no effect on its morality. Nice.

NFP doesn’ cause abortion, so yours is a moot point.

It is immoral because the Church says so, regardless of intent, and regardless of whether or not the approved method causes the death of he mother or her unborn children. Does this seem in the least bit wrong to anyone else???/

Plenty of reasons for the Church say so have been provided. Your points are moot.

The fact is, that part of he reason NFP so “effective”, is because it can cause spontaneous abortions. This is wrapped into their success rates. So yes, for a woman to use NFP knowing this, she is tacitly saying that she accepts these spontaneous abortions of her own children as collateral damage to not getting pregnant and not using an unapproved form of birth control. Sorry, but it’s true.

This is a purely false claim based on a strawman of NFP. Moot point.

Because it doesn’t hold up to the immorality of causing your own children to be aborted simply because for some mysterious reason, semen is treated as liquid platinum and preventing it from fertilizing an egg through any other means than NFP is somehow more immoral than knowingly causing the abortion/miscarriage of who knows how many embryos.

Invalid redherring rebuttal. NFP doesn’t not cause abortion, either spontaneous or other wise.

 

[LaSainte]

Since practictioner of NFP who are attempting to delay pregnancy are waiting until no egg is present, your data is meaningless diversion.

NFP doesn’ cause abortion, so yours is a moot point.
Plenty of reasons for the Church say so have been provided. Your points are moot.

This is a purely false claim based on a strawman of NFP. Moot point.

Invalid redherring rebuttal. NFP doesn’t not cause abortion, either spontaneous or other wise.

Yeah nice try.

 

[LaSainte]

LaSainte;8041876:

Are you talking about the study you linked to in post #787? Couples using modern methods of NFP aren’t having sex ‘on the fringes of fertility’, they’re abstaining until infertility. Your article refered only to the largely abandoned ‘rythm method’ of NFP. (Please correct me if I’ve cited the wrong article.)

Yes they are. It has to do with The age of the egg and sperm. Say a couple has sex on the last day of “infertility”. Those sperm are swimming around for a few days, the egg is released, and gets fertilized by one dying little sperm that has been floating around there for 5 days or so. This sperm is not going to be in top shape. The same works hue other way. The couple waits until the end of “fertility” to have sex, but the egg still happens to be viable and present. The sperm fertilize an egg that is essentially dying and there is a miscarriage later on because ofthe health of the egg.

It has to do with the age of the gametes involved I think.

To truly eliminate his possibility, you would have to take the most conservative form of NFP and add several days of abstinence on either side of the fertility window.

 

[Abu]

Warrior1979, #832
So it has nothing to do with God provided as you claimed, but rather what man does with it.

Even now the penny hasn’t dropped!
How God has made human nature has everything to do with how man can act, and how man acts has everything to do with the morality of the action. As God has provided an infertile period, mankind acts reasonably when only that is used for a time for serious reasons.

Strange that the quoted insights of pagan philosophers backed by the insights of St Thomas Aquinas and other Catholic philosophers on the natural moral law are blissfully ignored. No wonder there is so much confusion. Even St Paul refers to this fact: “For when the Gentiles, who have not the law, do by nature those things that are of the law; these having not the law [of Moses], are a law to themselves: who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness to them” (Romans 2:14, 15).

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

Good Daughter;8042462:

Yes they are. It has to do with The age of the egg and sperm. Say a couple has sex on the last day of “infertility”. Those sperm are swimming around for a few days, the egg is released, and gets fertilized by one dying little sperm that has been floating around there for 5 days or so. This sperm is not going to be in top shape. The same works hue other way. The couple waits until the end of “fertility” to have sex, but the egg still happens to be viable and present. The sperm fertilize an egg that is essentially dying and there is a miscarriage later on because ofthe health of the egg.

It has to do with the age of the gametes involved I think.

To truly eliminate his possibility, you would have to take the most conservative form of NFP and add several days of abstinence on either side of the fertility window.

If this theoretical aging of the gamates happens (and it is a theory, Creighton has studied miscarriages and this theory does not seem plausible, they have evidence of other factors) it could happen to any couple not using contraception.

Also, the study cited that there was no elevated risk normally, and an elevated risk of miscarriage for those who had had prior miscarriages.

How can one know certainly that use of NFP caused the miscarriage, and not some other factor?

In women with repetitive miscarriage, 85 percent will have endometriosis. This often goes unidentified because a diagnostic laparoscopy is not performed. However, such laparoscopies have been performed at the Pope Paul VI Institute in a large number of consecutive patients showing the presence of endometriosis and with subsequent treatment successful outcomes.
In addition, underlying hormonal abnormalities, ovulation defects and mucus cycle abnormalities can also be observed in patients with multiple miscarriages. The cumulative pregnancy rate of patients with a history of two or more spontaneous abortions in a NaProTECHNOLOGY-driven program is shown in Figure 57-22.

naprotechnology.com/abortion.htm

 

[LaSainte]

LaSainte;8042662:

If this theoretical aging of the gamates happens (and it is a theory, Creighton has studied miscarriages and this theory does not seem plausible, they have evidence of other factors) it could happen to any couple not using contraception.

Also, the study cited that there was no elevated risk normally, and an elevated risk of miscarriage for those who had had prior miscarriages.

How can one know certainly that use of NFP caused the miscarriage, and not some other factor?

So your theory is that the 15% increase in miscarriages for those who had previously experienced one was simply a fluke, or totally unrelated to the act that they ALL were practicing NFP, compared to the control group? Come on.

 

[Warrior1979]

Strange that the quoted insights of pagan philosophers backed by the insights of St Thomas Aquinas and other Catholic philosophers on the natural moral law are blissfully ignored. No wonder there is so much confusion. Even St Paul refers to this fact: “For when the Gentiles, who have not the law, do by nature those things that are of the law; these having not the law [of Moses], are a law to themselves: who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness to them” (Romans 2:14, 15).

Please point me to a source that states that these people had knowledge of the increase in miscarriages due to the use of the infertile period, and where they found it acceptable. Please be direct; further obfuscation is not necessary.

Thanks in advance.

 

[LaSainte]

Also, yes repeated miscarriages CAN happen to couples who are not practicing bury control at all, and they do. The question is in the morality of such a couple practicing a form of birth control that they KNOW based on scientific study will give them a 15% greater chance of miscarriage/abortion if their method fails, versus a different method that does not carry such a risk.

Everyone here is always so outraged by even the slightest chance of miscarriage caused by the pill, but when that chance is increased exponentially in this certain group of women practicing NFP, you all just shrug your shoulders, make excuses for why the study is bunk or just say “oh well”.

If this is the attitude here, let’s stop pretending that this is about the life of he unborn and call it what it is. ANYTHING can be justified if the Church will allow it, even a huge increase in miscarriages/abortions caused by NFP method failure versus ABC.

 

[Abu]

Warrior1979, #851
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abu
Strange that the quoted insights of pagan philosophers backed by the insights of St Thomas Aquinas and other Catholic philosophers on the natural moral law are blissfully ignored. No wonder there is so much confusion. Even St Paul refers to this fact: “For when the Gentiles, who have not the law, do by nature those things that are of the law; these having not the law [of Moses], are a law to themselves: who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness to them” (Romans 2:14, 15).

Please point me to a source that states that these people had knowledge of the increase in miscarriages due to the use of the infertile period, and where they found it acceptable. Please be direct; further obfuscation is not necessary.

“These people” acknowledged the natural moral law unlike those here who do not understand that it is a part of human nature which is recognised and acted upon according to conscience.

How God has made human nature has everything to do with how man can act, and how man acts has everything to do with the morality of the action. As God has provided an infertile period, mankind acts reasonably when only that is used for a time for serious reasons.

No flawed study has been mentioned or considered.