NFP and people getting state aid

[Corki]

Chemical contraception does not permanently screw up fertility. I am a prime example.

And I am a prime example of the damage that hormone can do.

Besides, does a person with 5 kids on welfare really NEED more children anyway?

This attitude that children are a material good is quite disturbing. No one “needs” children. (well the human race does, but not individuals) Children are a gift and a natural fruit of marriage. It’s not like saying someone doesn’t need a color TV or another car.

 

[LaSainte]

I personally know of s girl who wants to get pregnant again because her last child will be to old to be on the program and the family will be losing their benefit. I want to slap her. This is the same girl who was offered a job but refused it after she figured out the numbers and saw that she and her husband are finacially better off receiving benefits.

Wow. Unbelievable. That is what the system does though. It creates people who are so dependent on it that for these people to go out and get a job and stop making babies would actually make them “worse off”.

 

[Sullibe]

A communal responsibiliy to raise other people’s children? Sorry, but that is NOT forhe government to say, but for the Church, to which these people are free to appeal for help.

Lower my taxes by having more kids? Why didn’t I think of that? Hey, I could have a dozen and get all kinds of freebies like welfare, food stamps, school breakfast and lunch, healthcare, etc. Nevermind the people struggling to support heir own families who have to foot the bill for it all. You’re really turning me around on this whole thing. A free ride! Woohoo!

No. But children are a tax deduction.

 

[LaSainte]

And I am a prime example of the damage that hormone can do.

This attitude that children are a material good is quite disturbing. No one “needs” children. (well the human race does, but not individuals) Children are a gift and a natural fruit of marriage. It’s not like saying someone doesn’t need a color TV or another car.

Children are not a “gift”. They are not given to us freely through no action of our own. They are a result of sex. It is a biological imperative. The only person I know who was given a child as a “gift” was the Virgin Mary. The rest octhem, God allows to be created through our own actions. They don’t just fall out of the sky. People who refer to them strictly as “gifts” and “blessings” are missing a very big point here, and that is that God requires our “permission” to make them. No sex, no babies. These people need to keep their pants on.

 

[Sullibe]

I would say the assumption is that they don’t use any means of birth control. Just out of curiosity. Have all of them ALWAYS been on state aid, or has recent economic developments put them in a position where state aid is necessary?

By the time any client comes in pregnant for their 3rd child I scratch my head and wonder.
I admit there are some, probably more than we’d like to admit, that do overuse and abuse the system. And I agree that charities and churches should be taking a more leadership role in helping to care for those. But when you begin equating children with say, luxury cars. “It’s nice if you can afford them, but when you no longer can don’t come crying to me.” This is not the attitude anyone should be having.

If a couple, regardless of religion, is faithfully practicing NFP and a child or multiple children are conceived anyway. Then take it as a sign from God, that THAT child is supposed to be in the world, and do all you can to help the child thrive, including helping them out of the financial situation they find themselves in. If not because that child has every right to live a happy, healthy life, just like everyone else, then because that child, God willing, will grow up, thanks to your help, to be part of the next generation of tax-payers.

 

[Sullibe]

They are a result of sex. It is a biological imperative.

Yes, but who created the act?

 

[LaSainte]

Yes, but who created the act?

God created lots of things. We don’t get a free pass to use them willy nilly. I love how so many of you see women who will die of a ruptured uterus if they have another baby and you just tell them to abstain from sex for the rest of their years of fertility like it’s no big deal. Then you have these women, with no medical conditions, who are jus irresponsibly having children hey can’t afford rigt and left, and THAT is when you decide to suddenly have sympathy and we should all be ready to have our rights stripped of us to pay for their absurd choices. If anybody should be abstaining it is these people.

 

[mark_a]

I know of at least 20 families who don’t beilieve in birthcontrol on the programs I work with I know this because we ask our clients what they are using for birthcontrol… Our caseload is about 2000 families served per month in the area I work.

So it’s 1%?

 

[joclucsylv]

So it’s 1%?

In the area I work that would be correct.

The bone I have to pick isn’t just with the NFP couples, but with all people who can’t afford their children. The welfare system is flawed and it is an enabler. You can bet if the government wouldn’t be there to hold these people up, there would be a lot more pants staying up. There was a woman who came into a clinic today. She just got off the program because her child fived out of it. Well low and behold she and her husband are expecting yet another one for tax payers to support. That is 4 children you and I are paying for. Yup. I scratch my head in disgust at those situations. Do you think that if the state wasn’t backing this couple up that they would be having another child? Now…let me run through the long list this family gets. Medicaid, WIC, food stamps, free lunch program at school, heating assistance, head start. Add that all up and that family is receiving tens of thousands in aid. I bet that in 15 years I will see her oldest child on the programs, because that is often how it works. It’s a learned behavior that they think is ok. They are doing better than my husband and I who are stupid enough to work. It’s frustrating. I suppose it is what it is.

Another poster above asked if it is legal to ask what kind of bc they use. Absolutely!! It is asked when our post partum women get on the program.

 

[PeterGStanley]

These people will always be there - if we don’t support them they will be robbing and stealing from us and breaking into our homes in the middle of the night and then we will be paying more to incarcerate them in jail were they can still have babies.One way or another you will pay for them be it in jail or on the street - what do you prefer? The poor will always be with us - and some of these people do the jobs that we would never do and will always be poor and will struggle and need assistance and what do we really do without by supporting these systems - I know I do just fine.If the job has come to make you despise these people maybe its time to move on - these people are not going to go away.More then likely there will be even more with how the economy is going.Right now if your unemployed for more than a year you are deemed unhireable - we are putting people in to this system and not helping them and they are becoming trapped in the system. Things are going to get a lot worse before it gets better.

 

[Corki]

Children are not a “gift”…

More precisely, the ability to have children is a gift.

2366 Fecundity is a gift, an end of marriage, for conjugal love naturally tends to be fruitful. A child does not come from outside as something added on to the mutual love of the spouses, but springs from the very heart of that mutual giving, as its fruit and fulfillment. So the Church, which is "on the side of life,"151 teaches that "it is necessary that each and every marriage act remain ordered per se to the procreation of human life."152 "This particular doctrine, expounded on numerous occasions by the Magisterium, is based on the inseparable connection, established by God, which man on his own initiative may not break, between the unitive significance and the procreative significance which are both inherent to the marriage act."153

They are not given to us freely through no action of our own. They are a result of sex. It is a biological imperative.

That attitude reduces children to a consequence. That is not what children are in a marriage.

The only person I know who was given a child as a “gift” was the Virgin Mary.

Well, I have been given two precious gifts. I bet there are many more people here on CAF that you could add to your list.

The rest octhem, God allows to be created through our own actions. They don’t just fall out of the sky. People who refer to them strictly as “gifts” and “blessings” are missing a very big point here, and that is that God requires our “permission” to make them.

God does not require our permission to “make” children. If that was the case, no child would ever be conceived as a result of rape or failed birth control. God gives us the means to participate in the creation of children.

No sex, no babies. These people need to keep their pants on

Who exactly are “these people”? You have previously degraded the poor, Catholics, people with large families, people who don’t use chemicals to alter their fertitily, to name just a few. Which of “these people” do you want to refuse the right to enjoy sex with their legal spouses?

 

[LaSainte]

Look, it’s really quite simple. You have sex, you can get pregnant. God allows this. In His grace, when we conceive a child, God grants that child a soul. However, the rules of conception apply across the board for all creatures. Animals have sex and they conceive, they just don’t have immortal souls. It’s not like God is hovering around waiting for some couple to have sex or for some girl to get raped so that He can create a child.

I have no problem with these people having a baker’s dozen of children, or having sex with their spouses, but if I am going to be FORCED to pay for these kids, then you’re damn right that I think these people need to stop having sex if NFP doesn’t work forthem or if they won’t take other steps to stop themselves from having kids.

It is downright immoral to have children you can’t support and then force others who are struggling but NOT leeching off of society to pay for it.

 

[Corki]

It is downright immoral to have children you can’t support and then force others who are struggling but NOT leeching off of society to pay for it.

The first problem with your statement is that the people having the children are not the same people who are forcing you to pay taxes to support the system. Who is acting immorally?

Second, for every person “leeching off of society” there are at least as many people who have simply fallen on unexpected hard times through illness, disability or unemployment. Who are you (or some government functionary) to judge who should be allowed to have kids? What if they already had 10 kids before they fell on hard times? Would you require them to reduce their familiy size in order to be eligible for aid?

On the other hand it is absolutely immoral to pressure a couple to use ABC just because they are poor or on aid. Not to mention very short sighted. Those extra kids you want to dispose of might be the ones paying for your social security one day.

 

[LaSainte]

Haha. Social security will not exist by the time I am eligible for it precisely because of people like this. I do not expect it and I am certainly not planning for it.

And we aren’t talking about people with large families who have fallen on hard times. We are clearly only talking abounpeople who continue to have children when they have no means to support them.

Nobody is coercing people to use ABC. They would not have to accept state aid if the requirements of such go against their morals.

Funny how so many here are outraged by the idea that we don’t want to be forced to pay for someone else’s irresponsibility, and yet are absolutely outraged at federal funding for abortions, which is also forcing us to pay for someone’s irresponsibiliy. When it suits your own moral standards (such as large families using NFP) you’re all for it, but then when it goes against your moral sensibilities (abortion, which to many is a moral choice) you go berserk.

 

[mark_a]

In the area I work that would be correct.

The bone I have to pick isn’t just with the NFP couples, but with all people who can’t afford their children. The welfare system is flawed and it is an enabler. You can bet if the government wouldn’t be there to hold these people up, there would be a lot more pants staying up. There was a woman who came into a clinic today. She just got off the program because her child fived out of it. Well low and behold she and her husband are expecting yet another one for tax payers to support. That is 4 children you and I are paying for. Yup. I scratch my head in disgust at those situations. Do you think that if the state wasn’t backing this couple up that they would be having another child? Now…let me run through the long list this family gets. Medicaid, WIC, food stamps, free lunch program at school, heating assistance, head start. Add that all up and that family is receiving tens of thousands in aid. I bet that in 15 years I will see her oldest child on the programs, because that is often how it works. It’s a learned behavior that they think is ok. They are doing better than my husband and I who are stupid enough to work. It’s frustrating. I suppose it is what it is.

Another poster above asked if it is legal to ask what kind of bc they use. Absolutely!! It is asked when our post partum women get on the program.

I see your points, but I don’t understand why you think receiving (generational) welfare isn’t considered poor behavior by most Catholics or the Church in general.

 

[mark_a]

Funny how so many here are outraged by the idea that we don’t want to be forced to pay for someone else’s irresponsibility, and yet are absolutely outraged at federal funding for abortions, which is also forcing us to pay for someone’s irresponsibiliy. When it suits your own moral standards (such as large families using NFP) you’re all for it, but then when it goes against your moral sensibilities (abortion, which to many is a moral choice) you go berserk.

But it all goes back to Church teaching that all human life has value. Even when it ain’t pretty.

 

[maryjk]

Haha. Social security will not exist by the time I am eligible for it precisely because of people like this. I do not expect it and I am certainly not planning for it.

How?
I am not sure you know how Social Security works. And where that money comes from and who gets it.

It is a totally different fund than welfare or food stamps.

I am not saying that there will be any money left by the time I am old enough to collect, but it won’t have anything to do with large families on welfare. It will have everything to do with it being a pyramid scheme.

 

[Corki]

Another poster above asked if it is legal to ask what kind of bc they use. Absolutely!! It is asked when our post partum women get on the program.

That was me. I must say I am shocked that you are allowed to ask this question. It seems to be a clear HIPPA violation. I certainly wouldn’t answer such a personal and irrelevant question. What happens if someone refuses to answer?

 

[Corki]

Funny how so many here are outraged by the idea that we don’t want to be forced to pay for someone else’s irresponsibility, and yet are absolutely outraged at federal funding for abortions, which is also forcing us to pay for someone’s irresponsibiliy. When it suits your own moral standards (such as large families using NFP) you’re all for it, but then when it goes against your moral sensibilities (abortion, which to many is a moral choice) you go berserk.

Funny as in amusing or funny as in puzzling? Did you notice the name of the site? CATHOLIC Answers? It should be expected that the posters here, for the most part, are going to be outraged at immoral acts such as abortion and not particularly upset at all about moral acts such as using NFP or welcomig children.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

Let’s examine the idea of welfare being overburdened by married Catholics, who practice NFP or no family planning.

mathematica-mpr.com/pdfs/tanfmarriage.pdf

Increasingly, the welfare policy debate is focusing
on issues related to marriage and family formation.
Research shows that women who leave welfare
because of marriage are less likely to return to cash
assistance, and that children typically fare better
in two-parent families, particularly families with
their biological parents. For these reasons, three of
the four goals of the 1996 federal welfare reform
legislation that created the TANF program emphasized
supporting marriage and discouraging nonmarital
childbearing.

and

Almost all women- 95 percent–enter the New
Jersey TANF program unmarried; two-thirds have
never been married (Figure 1).1 Moreover, few marry
during the years after TANF entry. For those who
were unmarried when they entered the program,
only nine percent were married and living with their
husbands four and a half years later (Figure 2).
Cohabitation is at least as common as marriage
10 percent were living with an unmarried partner at
this same point in time.