NFP and Traditional Catholicism

[Rence]

And having sex only during infertile times through NFP is “trusting God”? After all, the opposite is true as well - with NFP you’re purposely using the information you have to avoid as much as possible another child.

Yes, it is. Using NFP is using a system that God provided. God provided women with cycles of fertile and infertile times and a means to identify them. The fact that it’s not 100% effective and one is still using it is testimony to trusting in God. I can’t even count how many posts have said that NFP didn’t work for a couple.

And the fact of the matter is, if you DO have a child, that child is, for purposes of NFP, a “failure” of NFP to work and, to a lesser extent, can even be considered an unwanted or inconvenient child at that time. How sad!

With all due respect, what is sad is the fact that you tagged this on to what I said. This is not what I said, nor how I feel. Please do not add to my words.

Outside of really good reasons for doing so (which one should acknowledge as being a deviation from the normal activity of the marriage), I can’t see the use of NFP as having any interplay with “trusting God”. NFP - justified or not - is the use of information to intervene in the natural process for a time. It is not the same and cannot be comparable to the couple who simply has relations without consulting a calendar.

You don’t have to use NFP. But the fact of the matter is that the Church allows for it, and the Catholic Church allows NFP precisely because it does not in any way intervene in the natural process. It actually works with the natural process.

 

[Rence]

This is not a useful comment.

I asked the question because some posters (you included) are saying that I, personally, (and everyone else) should have as many children as God wants to give me. So, he must have a number. Shouldn’t we be trying to discern that number?

I personally think that there is no proof that God has a number in “mind” for each couple. If that’s the case, then we can have more children than God intended, by allowing the biology to work after we’ve had the last child God “wanted” us to have. That can’t be true, can it?

I do believe that God knows how many children every single couple will ever have. But I believe that He will let that couple know and will influence them and direct them. I don’t believe couples are compelled to mindlessly churn out children without thinking about it. Now, don’t get me wrong: if a couple feels like they should just have as many kids as possible, that’s awesome because that’s what God intended for them. But I don’t believe God intended for everyone to have a pregnancy a year, every year, until they can do no more. I believe it’s different for every couple and God will let us know. He gave us the means to space out kids and if it’s not right time for you to be pregnant, then use the tools God gave us.

 

[Onegin]

Wow, quite a few people jumped on my posts, so I’ll return to this tomorrow (it’s quite early here in Jolly 'ol)

But a few points before I go, generally, and I’ll respond specifically to individual poster’s comments when I have more time:

1. None of what I say is intended towards any poster personally. I’m taking things to their natural and logical conclusions. If “successfully” using NFP to postpone pregnancy means that no pregnancy, in fact, results then - naturally, to “unsuccessfully” use NFP would be to have a pregnancy result. It’s just the logical consequence of the thing. I can’t tell you how many of my classmates at University who are now married have commented to me after the birth of the first child “Well, NFP sure didn’t work for US!” Clearly, the purpose of NFP as it is commonly used amongst Catholics is to postpone pregnancy. If this does not work then NFP is considered to have “failed.”
2. God knows exactly how many children we are going to have otherwise He wouldn’t be omnipotent. That’s simple, right? To take it another step, I also believe that God wills us to have a certain number of children as part of what is known as his Perfect Will. It may be 0 and it may be 25 however, whether we choose to cooperate with Him in fulfilling His will is another matter entirely. Human beings have free will and, as such, we have the choice to (unfortunately) deviate from the Divine Will. What results from this is what is known as God’s Permissive Will (what He allows to happen when we exercise our free will contrary to the Divine Will).
3. The NFP question, to me, goes much deeper than simply a question of whether it is right or wrong to use NFP in circumstances A or B. To me, this whole NFP issue (and it’s subsequent glorification and widespread use amongst Catholics) is an outgrowth of a general ignorance about the sacrificial aspect of the Sacrament of Marriage. That’s right - Marriage as a sacrifice! What a novel idea, no? The idea of voluntarily impoverishing oneself for the sake of one’s children is a really unpopular idea in modern culture. Modern culture tells us that Marriage is primarily about the mutual satisfaction of the married couple and that children are secondary benefits to be added, like a piece of furniture or a household pet. This is not Catholic in any way.

It is silly to say that the Catholic culture hasn’t absorbed some of this mentality. The extolling of NFP as a form of virtuous, Catholic asceticism is ridiculous at best. NFP - at it’s root - is an outgrowth of the contraceptive mentality. It may be tolerated in certain cases but it is not and can never be virtuous!

If we can’t learn to say “yes” and “no” within marriage, if one spouse can’t “control themselves” within the context of marriage (how did it work in the Middle Ages - were people more controlled naturally?), if we can’t practice chastity, then surely we have lost that all important element of sacrifice so fundamentally important to the Sacrament? Sacrifice renders things holy.

Masculinity is no longer the same - the idea that the man will sacrifice for the good of his family in all aspects of the marriage, to be a martyr for the good of his family is a concept that many scoff at today. Femininity has lost much of it’s meaning - many women will no longer embrace motherhood at the expense of material comforts for the sake of her family. And it is all a downward spiral - if only Catholics would do something about it.

1. I suggest reading Pius XII’s Address to Large Families which you can find here:
   catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=5370&CFID=27548272&CFTOKEN=61136584

Wherever you find large families in great numbers, they point to: the physical and moral health of a Christian people; a living faith in God and trust in His Providence; the fruitful and joyful holiness of Catholic marriage.
{…}
Now the value of the testimony offered by the parents of large families lies not only in their unequivocal and forceful rejection of any deliberate compromise between the law of God and human selfishness, but also in their readiness to accept joyfully and gratefully these priceless gifts of God—their children — in whatever number it may please Him to send them.

 

[ac_claire]

This is not a useful comment.

I asked the question because some posters (you included) are saying that I, personally, (and everyone else) should have as many children as God wants to give me. So, he must have a number. Shouldn’t we be trying to discern that number?

I personally think that there is no proof that God has a number in “mind” for each couple. If that’s the case, then we can have more children than God intended, by allowing the biology to work after we’ve had the last child God “wanted” us to have. That can’t be true, can it?

Huh? Who else has said anything about a “magic number” except for you? How does “I should have as many children as God wants to give me” = “there must be a set number of children therefore that I’m meant to have, discernable in advance by myself and everyone else on this thread?”

 

[Advocatus_Fidei]

This is not a useful comment.

I asked the question because some posters (you included) are saying that I, personally, (and everyone else) should have as many children as God wants to give me. So, he must have a number. Shouldn’t we be trying to discern that number?

No we shouldn’t be trying to discern that number, why would be need to know that number? There is no reason to need to know that number and it is impossible to discern it.

Such knowledge is not necessary to knowingly cooperate fully and willingly with God in the creation of new life and to use the marriage act for the purposes for which it was created by the Creator, what is required for that is Faith, Hope and Love, virtue not knowledge.

 

[PaulinVA]

Huh? Who else has said anything about a “magic number” except for you? How does “I should have as many children as God wants to give me” = “there must be a set number of children therefore that I’m meant to have, discernable in advance by myself and everyone else on this thread?”

				Originally Posted by **Advocatus Fidei** 					[forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=6787828#post6787828) 				
			*We should accept as many children  as God desires to give us without trying to refuse His gifts.

This sounds like God has a certain number of children that he desires to give us (a number) and by using NFP to avoid pregnancy, we are thwarting God’s intent.

But, in a follow up post, the same poster says that we should not try to discern that number, and in fact we can not know that number.

I don’t get it. Either there is a number and we are thwarting God’s purpose by not reaching it, or there is no number and it is up to the couple to prayerfully decide how many children to have.

I’m confused. Which is it?

 

[Advocatus_Fidei]

Originally Posted by Advocatus Fidei forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
*We should accept as many children as God desires to give us without trying to refuse His gifts.
This sounds like God has a certain number of children that he desires to give us (a number) and by using NFP to avoid pregnancy, we are thwarting God’s intent.

But, in a follow up post, the same poster says that we should not try to discern that number, and in fact we can not know that number.

I don’t get it. Either there is a number and we are thwarting God’s purpose by not reaching it, or there is no number and it is up to the couple to prayerfully decide how many children to have.

I’m confused. Which is it?

You are the one assuming there is a number I was merely indulging your premise in my answer, I do not know if there is a set number or not, and the truth is that it is irrelevant to the issue at hand which is one of either freely cooperating with God or trying to place restrictions on God by using some of the laws of nature to subvert other laws and to attempt to limit and control God through those laws.

Your argument Paul is a false one, the reasons we do not seek to deliberately limit our children is not based on whether or not there is a set number it is based on the reasons already given previously in the thread.

 

[PaulinVA]

You are the one assuming there is a number I was merely indulging your premise in my answer, I do not know if there is a set number or not, and the truth is that it is irrelevant to the issue at hand which is one of either freely cooperating with God or trying to place restrictions on God by using the laws of nature against Him.

Okay, fair enough. It wasn’t my premise. I thought it was yours. It might be a different poster’s.

Your second statement is along those same lines, though, isn’t it? By not having relations during the fertile time this month, I may be thwarting God’s will? Okay, only if I prayerfully discern that we should try to have another baby and we are not?

 

[Advocatus_Fidei]

Okay, fair enough. It wasn’t my premise. I thought it was yours. It might be a different poster’s.

Your second statement is along those same lines, though, isn’t it? By not having relations during the fertile time this month, I may be thwarting God’s will? Okay, only if I prayerfully discern that we should try to have another baby and we are not?

I don’t know whether there is a set number or not which is why I will not commit to it and its not necessary to know the answer to the question you pose to know what the correct attitude to the marital act should be, however scripture would suggest that God does know in advance all the children He wishes to have born, we read for example in Jeremiah: “I knew you before you were in your mothers womb” Jer. 1:5

Having another baby should not involve discernment at all Paul, it is not something that you should take control of you should leave it up to God, the whole idea that it is rightfully our decision to make and is ours to control is wrong. God is the Creator not us.

If God wants us to have another child we will have it, if God does not want us to have another child we will not, that trusting childlike faith in God that allows us to think of child birth in that manner is what we should have.

There is a story about St. John Vianney which might be relevant here. A mother who was pregnant and was afraid went to for advice and he comforted her with these words:

“Be comforted my child, if only you knew the women who will go to Hell because they did not bring into the world the children they should have given to it.”

Which again is in perfect accord with God’s words to us, we find in 1 Timothy for example: “A woman is saved by childbearing” 1 Tim 2:15

 

[PaulinVA]

Having another baby should not involve discernment at all Paul, it is not something that you should take control of you should leave it up to God, the whole idea that it is rightfully our decision to make and is ours to control is wrong. God is the Creator not us.

If God wants us to have another child we will have it, if God does not want us to have another child we will not, that trusting childlike faith in God that allows us to think of child birth in that manner is what we should have.

Well, I guess that we have arrived at my real problem. I disagree with the statement in bold. God has created the biology. The biology works to it’s logical end. WE are co-creators, because we have a hand in this as well.

I find it hard to believe that God picks whether a sperm will find the egg this month. Why did he create the biology the way he did if he is always intervening in the way it works?

I know He can do this. I just don’t think He does.

 

[Advocatus_Fidei]

Well, I guess that we have arrived at my real problem. I disagree with the statement in bold. God has created the biology. The biology works to it’s logical end. WE are co-creators, because we have a hand in this as well.

I find it hard to believe that God picks whether a sperm will find the egg this month. Why did he create the biology the way he did if he is always intervening in the way it works?

I know He can do this. I just don’t think He does.

The rules of nature can and are abused my man all the time, the fact that we are able to use nature in certain way does not mean it is right to do so.

I did not say God interferes in the biological functions, a baby is not just a body, it is also a soul, God creates the soul directly Himself and places it in the body, without God doing this there is no baby. However God cannot do this if man refuses to create a body, by refusing to create new bodies for souls man hampers God in His creative work, you are not a co-creator if you are refusing to create. You become like the man who goes on strike because he wants more before He is willing to do the work set by his boss, only in this instance you are on strike against God, you are saying effectively to God that you will not serve Him.

We are partners with God but we are not equal partners, we are co-creators but He is still the chief Creator, and He should still be the one who makes the decisions as that Chief Creator, not us.

 

[PaulinVA]

We are partners with God but we are not equal partners, we are co-creators but He is still the chief Creator, and He should still be the one who makes the decisions as that Chief Creator, not us.

Yes I agree that God is the chief creator. But, if the biology works correctly, God will place a soul in a body no matter what the circumstance. Babies are conceived in all sorts of terrible situations, and some babies conceived in ideal situations have bad outcomes (birth defects, etc).

So, what does this mean for us? I am still unable to shake the idea that since God follows the rules He created, becoming pregnant is following the rules, not God intervening in our earthly life.

 

[Advocatus_Fidei]

Yes I agree that God is the chief creator. But, if the biology works correctly, God will place a soul in a body no matter what the circumstance. Babies are conceived in all sorts of terrible situations, and some babies conceived in ideal situations have bad outcomes (birth defects, etc).

So, what does this mean for us? I am still unable to shake the idea that since God follows the rules He created, becoming pregnant is following the rules, not God intervening in our earthly life.

There is no rule that says God must put a soul in a body, sperms can and do find eggs and then do not create a baby we just are not aware of it when it happens most of the time.

Gods love of creating life overrules the bad situations some children are conceived in, God loves Creation more than He hates sin, this is why He did not destroy creation at the fall of Adam and why He still has not despite all our sins even up till this time but instead goes on preserving us with His life giving force. This is how much He loves to create new babies He will still create them even if the circumstances are bad, however His involvement does not end there He then goes on to provide for those babies He creates for the rest of their life’s.

What you consider bad outcomes are not considered by God as bad outcomes , no child is a bad outcome, they are exactly as God created them to be.

 

[Onegin]

Babies are conceived in all sorts of terrible situations, and some babies conceived in ideal situations have bad outcomes (birth defects, etc).

But isn’t this just giving in to the popular secular notion that anything less than physically/circumstantially “perfect” is somehow flawed? In the eyes of God, all children created have value regardless of the circumstances or condition in which they arrive on Earth.

In the end, regardless of outcome, God intended for that particular child to be created.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

Yes I agree that God is the chief creator. But, if the biology works correctly, God will place a soul in a body no matter what the circumstance. Babies are conceived in all sorts of terrible situations, and some babies conceived in ideal situations have bad outcomes (birth defects, etc).

So, what does this mean for us? I am still unable to shake the idea that since God follows the rules He created, becoming pregnant is following the rules, not God intervening in our earthly life.

Oh no, God intervenes. The Holy Spirit is present at each marital act. (The Lord the Giver of Life) Even the illicit ones. Part of the reason illicit sexual practices are wrong…they go against the Holy Spirit.

I think it’s part of the Mysterious nature of God. He can simultaneously care for the universe as He can care about each one of us individually.

He planned us from the beginning…so He intervenes every time a baby is created. He trusts us to cooperate with him.

 

[Advocatus_Fidei]

Oh no, God intervenes. The Holy Spirit is present at each marital act. (The Lord the Giver of Life) Even the illicit ones. Part of the reason illicit sexual practices are wrong…they go against the Holy Spirit.

I think it’s part of the Mysterious nature of God. He can simultaneously care for the universe as He can care about each one of us individually.

He planned us from the beginning…so He intervenes every time a baby is created. He trusts us to cooperate with him.

That’s right

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

I-N-T-E-N-T-I-O-N. Intention. 1. an act or instance of determining mentally upon some action or result. 2. the end or object intended; purpose. &c.

Exactly! (If you were making the point I think you were making, which… I think you were )

 

[whm]

Yes, it is. Using NFP is using a system that God provided. God provided women with cycles of fertile and infertile times and a means to identify them. The fact that it’s not 100% effective and one is still using it is testimony to trusting in God. I can’t even count how many posts have said that NFP didn’t work for a couple.

I don’t think God created the menstrual cycle for NFP. It service an important biological purpose unrelated to NFP. God created everything, we can use God’s creation for good or ill. I cringe when I see this particular argument regardless of which side of the fence I am on.

 

[PaulinVA]

But isn’t this just giving in to the popular secular notion that anything less than physically/circumstantially “perfect” is somehow flawed? In the eyes of God, all children created have value regardless of the circumstances or condition in which they arrive on Earth.

In the end, regardless of outcome, God intended for that particular child to be created.

Well, first, let me state that I know what you are saying. I had a child that was born with a severe birth defect who lived for three years before dying. I understand that his life was sacred because all human life is sacred.

But I’m not so sure that God intended him to be born that way. Turns out that his problem was caused by a lack of folic acid in my wife (this occurred before the link was known). So, his defect was what? Just biology. God didn’t will it. He didn’t prevent it, either. He allowed the rules he set in motion to work to their conclusion.

 

[Onegin]

Well, first, let me state that I know what you are saying. I had a child that was born with a severe birth defect who lived for three years before dying. I understand that his life was sacred because all human life is sacred.

But I’m not so sure that God intended him to be born that way. Turns out that his problem was caused by a lack of folic acid in my wife (this occurred before the link was known). So, his defect was what? Just biology. God didn’t will it. He didn’t prevent it, either. He allowed the rules he set in motion to work to their conclusion.

I agree, and having also lived with close family members born with birth defects, I would say that such children bring immeasurable joy not only through the innocence that they have but also through the sacrifices that the parents made (hearkening back to my point about Marriage being fundamentally sacrificial thing).

The reason that I disagree with the idea that God simply creates things and then steps back and lets nature take it’s course is because I believe this strays too close to the Deist mentality, or rather the rejection that God intervenes in human affairs. The Deist position considers God to be like a clockworker who simply designs the mechanism and then lets it tick away.

I would argue that God is much more present in our daily lives and that his Will stretches into the things that we might consider solely human affairs such as childbearing. As Mary Gail so accurately noted, that’s part of the mystery of God - the idea that He created the entire universe and yet cares about and is involved in the day to day minutia as well. In Matthew 10:29 we are told “Are not two sparrows sold for a copper coin? And not one of them falls to the ground apart from your Father’s will.”