NFP as spiritual warfare?

[nobeerinheaven]

This has probably been said several times over, but the assumption that the libido peak coincides with ovulation is not accurate. Many women have no such correlation, and thus do not have problems. If the peaks do coincide, perhaps God is telling you to have some children?

 

[TweetyBird]

My thoughts on NFP may not add anything useful to the discussion, but here goes.

I think the problem is that society is way more white collar and education-focused. (And I’m a teacher, so I’m in on it too.) Back in the day, people lived on farms. Children were a blessing, not only for their own sake, but because they contributed to the success of the family by helping on the farm. As long as the land was fertile, one more child could be accommodated by adjusting the type and amount of crops being planted. I imagine couples would TTA when the situation was really dire - drought, failed crops, or medical issues. And with so many people around, finding the energy to look after one more was not an issue. Another point is that after doing physical labour on the farm, I doubt couples had the energy to have sex regularly. Also, people didn’t live as long, and so that naturally limited family sizes as well. Therefore, NFP was not too far off what they would do normally - have sex occasionally, and abstain if they had a serious reason to avoid having another child.

These days, we all live in large, spacious houses that we have to pay people to build. We tend to live in places where many other people want to live, so the prices of land are high. Labour laws prevent children from financially contributing to the household, so having children increases expenses but not income.

Not only that, but our work has become less physical as labour has become more mechanized. That means that A: couples probably have more sex than they did in historical times, because they’re less tired, and B: people have more time to think and dwell on their desires versus the expense of children.

And then we had the “sexual revolution” with ABC and the idea sprang into people’s heads that they deserved sex whenever they wanted it (and with whoever would give it, but that’s another topic). And here we are with the problems we have these days:

• People have the energy for regular sex.
• People have the idea that regular sex is a reasonable expectation.
• People have the idea that children are a burden rather than a blessing.
• People see NFP and the Church’s stance on ABC as the barrier between themselves and their sexual gratification.

Is it any wonder that NFP has a hard time in today’s society? I know we have so many more conveniences than past generations, and longer lives too, but sometimes I wish I’d been born in simpler times.

Wow. Great post!

I would call myself a struggler in this area too. It’s particularly hard because my dh is pretty apathetic about NFP. But anyway…

The whole “theological attack” thing seems patently absurd. That’s like saying that the way God created sex is an attack on women since women have to endure sexual ‘frustration’ if they want to avoid pregnancy. Hello, um contraception is an unnatural intervention in biologically normal sex as God created it. Before man invented contraceptive technology (God certainly didn’t create it!), the ONLY choices (the biologically normal ones) were to (a) have sex, or (b) don’t. If you don’t want to get pregnant, the choice is (b). The only difference with NFP is that it allows couples to identify times when the relative chance of pregnancy is low. Anyway, God doesn’t oblige anyone to practice NFP. Women don’t have to be sexually frustrated during a fertile time. It’s about making a choice - is sex more important right now, or is it more important to postpone pregnancy.

It really comes down to a 1/2 empty, 1/2 full situation. If you compare NFP to contracepting and having sex whenever you want, then you will consider NFP to be an awful thing. But if you consider NFP as an alternative to complete abstinence, then it becomes a blessing. The availability of contraception has made us think that sex whenever we want it without possibility of pregnancy is normal when it’s really not.

If we sort of step outside ourselves and think about it for a minute, doesn’t it seem strange that we feel we need to rely on technology to artificially alter sex so that we can have happy marriages and fulfilled sex lives?

 

[marymol]

Interesting that the authors sighted by O.P bring the idea of spiritual warfare and NFP.

And it does help to remind how being fully armed is essential !

Which is what the noncatholic authors are lacking …and lamenting that the little finger is not lifted , to help with the burden …we in The Church know it is not so …

There is the Book of Maccabees ( missing in non cath bibles )- where the heroic witness of the mother and her seven sons , not to bedefiled by pork is mentioned …

Since O.T is a type of things to come in the New Covenant, the whole issue of pork and defilement can be seen as a type for issues of sexual purity, to keep the dwellings of The Spirit clean - worthy to recieve the Eucharist …again missing in non catholic churches !

The body itself being a living sacrifice …in our worship and prayer , body is and can be involved more …

The women, during fertile phase , if finding it difficult to resist her urges ( and if there is a definite need to do so ) can seek out the aid of The Church … even if she does not have to do drastic steps like St Francis - who rolled in the snow on an occasion of satan induced temptation…and that incident still stands as a mysterious reminder of God’s fidelity …there is the rose garden in Assisi , that have rose bushes with no thorns !

May be he can be a good patron in this cause as well - he and St. Clare whose purity in relationship reportedly set whole forest aflame with the Spirit …and who had a miraculous role , in thwarting Moslem invasion … …

Sexual impurity is considered one easy way for satanic bondage ( ’ its desire is for you ’ )…and one day, when the Books are opened, we might be surprised to see how nations lost or won wars by the purity in this area …

Our own internal rose gardens could be , by using any weakness , even resentments in this area , as a tool to learn the narrow walk …

of learning to surrender … Dear Father , I bring this to you …this resentment in me … this hurt …in my husband …in the children …and He would give us His peace …as an ongoing prayer …

Using our bodies , in prayer …up in the morning , prostrate on the floor …rosary beads in hand …Bl.Mother and her whole army with us …( wonder is someone would do a study to see if such a pratice can be far better than yoga , at many levels …)

And following the Church recommendatons on fasting and abstinenece …so that the body too learn to cherish its role as being focused and sacred , for its place in worship …for it too is to be in heaven one day …( again much of this often missing in noncatholic practice )

Use of sacramentals …again missing often in noncatholic practices …may be a green scapular , at the head of the bed …to be held when in need of special forces …a few sprinkles of holy water …for all those who are in purgatory , for sins of the flesh …asking for their prayers on behalf of those who are most in need …

Thus , both couples learn the joy of being ’ subject to Christ’…so that a whole lot of those foxes in the vineyard of marriage that seem to steal the fruit of oneness will be chased offf too…

to have holy children and families …

May The Holy Family aid us and our Lady of Victory intercede for us all !

 

[whatevergirl]

My thoughts on NFP may not add anything useful to the discussion, but here goes.

I think the problem is that society is way more white collar and education-focused. (And I’m a teacher, so I’m in on it too.) Back in the day, people lived on farms. Children were a blessing, not only for their own sake, but because they contributed to the success of the family by helping on the farm. As long as the land was fertile, one more child could be accommodated by adjusting the type and amount of crops being planted. I imagine couples would TTA when the situation was really dire - drought, failed crops, or medical issues. And with so many people around, finding the energy to look after one more was not an issue. Another point is that after doing physical labour on the farm, I doubt couples had the energy to have sex regularly. Also, people didn’t live as long, and so that naturally limited family sizes as well. Therefore, NFP was not too far off what they would do normally - have sex occasionally, and abstain if they had a serious reason to avoid having another child.

These days, we all live in large, spacious houses that we have to pay people to build. We tend to live in places where many other people want to live, so the prices of land are high. Labour laws prevent children from financially contributing to the household, so having children increases expenses but not income.

Not only that, but our work has become less physical as labour has become more mechanized. That means that A: couples probably have more sex than they did in historical times, because they’re less tired, and B: people have more time to think and dwell on their desires versus the expense of children.

And then we had the “sexual revolution” with ABC and the idea sprang into people’s heads that they deserved sex whenever they wanted it (and with whoever would give it, but that’s another topic). And here we are with the problems we have these days:

• People have the energy for regular sex.
• People have the idea that regular sex is a reasonable expectation.
• People have the idea that children are a burden rather than a blessing.
• People see NFP and the Church’s stance on ABC as the barrier between themselves and their sexual gratification.

Is it any wonder that NFP has a hard time in today’s society? I know we have so many more conveniences than past generations, and longer lives too, but sometimes I wish I’d been born in simpler times.

I so agree–love how you worded all of this!

 

[SilenceISgolden]

This has probably been said several times over, but the assumption that the libido peak coincides with ovulation is not accurate. Many women have no such correlation, and thus do not have problems. If the peaks do coincide, perhaps God is telling you to have some children?

Well…that isn’t true for everyone. Personally, that is the only time I desire it. It wasn’t ALWAYS this way but with 3 little ones and life in general, I don’t really think about it except around my peak. But I am aware that I am only a part of this marriage and the other part of this marriage is ready at any time, any day, any where. Also it’s not really just me that has the issue because I know when my desire is higher, both of our enjoyment is greater KWIM??

I have felt frustrated with this part of practicing NFP but I don’t know any different, we’ve always used NFP both TTC & TTA. But it doesn’t take away from the frustration as we will be TTA for serious reasons for quite awhile. But I figure it’s all part of the sacrifice of married life. And I guess I prefer it to the alternative of complete abstinance!

 

[marymol]

Unsure if subclinical b12 deficiency has been shown to be a factor in many cases of fatigue and tiredness and resultant loss of interest as in cases above ( googling on b12 gives lot of good info.)

An easy to treat problem .

God Bless!

 

[newbetx]

I agree with gardenswithkids’ first post - the Church teaches that NFP should only be used for certain reasons, and that the couple should take a responsible attitude towards it. So with that in mind, you shouldn’t be using NFP much during your marriage anyway, which means that it won’t effect your sexual desire much. Perhaps it’ll also be an extra incentive for having kids!

I’m confused… you say…

the Church teaches that NFP should only be used for certain reasons.

Where does it say that?

 

[gardenswithkids]

I’m confused… you say…

Where does it say that?

In the Catechism, among other documents.

2368 A particular aspect of this responsibility concerns the regulation of procreation. For just reasons, spouses may wish to space the births of their children. It is their duty to make certain that their desire is not motivated by selfishness but is in conformity with the generosity appropriate to responsible parenthood. Moreover, they should conform their behavior to theobjective criteria of morality…

The Catechism translates the word as “just”, but I think it is found other places as “licit” or “grave”. The Church has not further defined what qualifies as a “just reason” for avoiding or spacing children, but as you can read the Church reminds spouses that it is their duty to make certain they are not avoiding pregnancy out of selfishness.

That is part of the teaching about NFP that is often overlooked, but it helped me personally to break away from using contraception. The Bible and the Church are clear that children are blessings. Reserving the use of NFP for “just reasons”, reinforces the idea that children are blessings; if we don’t want God to bless our marriage with more children, we need a good reason.

 

[kittery]

I actually have a lot to say about this. I have had this thought countless times, that I am being cheated out of sexuality as God created it by having to abstain during nearly every single peak that I will have during my lifetime.

We can’t just “let go” and have as many kids as our fertility may allow because I know there are limitations. I trust in God to provide for our family, no matter what the size. Emotionally and spiritually, I feel like I will do my best providing for four children. We have two so far, but I have suffered a long road of post-partum and anxiety since our daughter was born. I’m not ready to weather another storm yet.

And in the midst of my emotional turmoil, sexual intimacy was forbidden most of the time. This made everything so much heavier and harder. I felt alone and fearful for long periods during my mental distress, and longed for the haven of my husband. Being sexually deprived of each other for so long made cuddling and just holding one another into nothing but frustration and temptation. Now there is a wedge there between us, because during some of my darkest times, I felt so disconnected and shut away from him and could not count on his touch to comfort me. The tenderness and communication that takes place during lovemaking IS essential to the intimacy of marriage.

My background plays into my beliefs/thoughts. I was raised non-denominational protestant. I was very close to God and very aware and in tune with the Holy Spirit’s guidance. I shared a wonderful relationship with Jesus Christ. I met my husband and he was a cradle Catholic. We had a strong connection immediately. But a few weeks into dating, I almost stopped seeing him because our faiths were both so strong but so different. He was crushed by the thought of this, and asked me just to stay and see where things would lead. We went to each other’s churches. We studied the bible and watched a lot of apologetics videos. Slowly, I was led into the Catholic faith, and completed RCIA shortly before we wed.

We got pregnant the second month we were married. Seven months after the first one arrived, we were pregnant with the second. I adore my children with each and every breath. They are little teaspoons of heaven. But I can’t have a baby every year. So now we lead a very frustrated, calculated, barely there sex life.

I still believe that abortifacient birth control is wrong. Technology is great, but a lot of it is evil too. Abortifacient BC is one of the evils of technology/science. But there are other things that a couple can do during the fertile times that won’t get them pregnant, and I don’t think that those things are inherently evil. In my heart of hearts, I don’t. But the faith says there will be eternal damnation for such things. ??? I don’t get it. I’m not asking for an explanation- I know all of the theology and yes, I’ve read Christoper West. But my 28 years as a non-Catholic, God-fearing woman just won’t let me believe that I could go to Hell for fooling around with my husband who is the only man I’ve ever been with and ever will be with. As a Catholic woman, I feel cheated out of a happy healthy sex life within my marriage. Deep down, I think I may regret becoming Catholic because my relationship with God is very confused now. Not just because of this/NFP, although it does complicate things, but because I feel so far away from God now and like I’m walking in and out of His grace day to day. Being damned to Hell one day, go to confession and He loves me again. Mess up, be damned to Hell until the priest absolves me, and so on. What of God’s unconditional love?

 

[Jennifer_J]

Kittery,
I don’t have any great words of wisdom right now, but please know that I will be praying for you and your struggles.

 

[anna1978]

This has probably been said several times over, but the assumption that the libido peak coincides with ovulation is not accurate. Many women have no such correlation, and thus do not have problems. If the peaks do coincide, perhaps God is telling you to have some children?

Thank you!!! I was starting to feel like the odd-one-out here! My ‘peak’ starts around 4 days before my period is due, and all desire goes out of the window the minute my period arrives! So, we tend to make full use of this time and then don’t ‘want it’ for another 3 or 4 weeks until I get close to the end oif my cycle again. My dh even says, when I start nudging and frisking him o ) ‘Ooh, so your period must be due in a few days!’.

I have a 28-day-cycle, so the only days I ‘peak’ in desire is day 24-28! Around ovulation, I feel…nothing…no different!

Anna x

 

[whatevergirl]

I actually have a lot to say about this. I have had this thought countless times, that I am being cheated out of sexuality as God created it by having to abstain during nearly every single peak that I will have during my lifetime.

We can’t just “let go” and have as many kids as our fertility may allow because I know there are limitations. I trust in God to provide for our family, no matter what the size. Emotionally and spiritually, I feel like I will do my best providing for four children. We have two so far, but I have suffered a long road of post-partum and anxiety since our daughter was born. I’m not ready to weather another storm yet.

And in the midst of my emotional turmoil, sexual intimacy was forbidden most of the time. This made everything so much heavier and harder. I felt alone and fearful for long periods during my mental distress, and longed for the haven of my husband. Being sexually deprived of each other for so long made cuddling and just holding one another into nothing but frustration and temptation. Now there is a wedge there between us, because during some of my darkest times, I felt so disconnected and shut away from him and could not count on his touch to comfort me. The tenderness and communication that takes place during lovemaking IS essential to the intimacy of marriage.

My background plays into my beliefs/thoughts. I was raised non-denominational protestant. I was very close to God and very aware and in tune with the Holy Spirit’s guidance. I shared a wonderful relationship with Jesus Christ. I met my husband and he was a cradle Catholic. We had a strong connection immediately. But a few weeks into dating, I almost stopped seeing him because our faiths were both so strong but so different. He was crushed by the thought of this, and asked me just to stay and see where things would lead. We went to each other’s churches. We studied the bible and watched a lot of apologetics videos. Slowly, I was led into the Catholic faith, and completed RCIA shortly before we wed.

We got pregnant the second month we were married. Seven months after the first one arrived, we were pregnant with the second. I adore my children with each and every breath. They are little teaspoons of heaven. But I can’t have a baby every year. So now we lead a very frustrated, calculated, barely there sex life.

I still believe that abortifacient birth control is wrong. Technology is great, but a lot of it is evil too. Abortifacient BC is one of the evils of technology/science. But there are other things that a couple can do during the fertile times that won’t get them pregnant, and I don’t think that those things are inherently evil. In my heart of hearts, I don’t. But the faith says there will be eternal damnation for such things. ??? I don’t get it. I’m not asking for an explanation- I know all of the theology and yes, I’ve read Christoper West. But my 28 years as a non-Catholic, God-fearing woman just won’t let me believe that I could go to Hell for fooling around with my husband who is the only man I’ve ever been with and ever will be with. As a Catholic woman, I feel cheated out of a happy healthy sex life within my marriage. Deep down, I think I may regret becoming Catholic because my relationship with God is very confused now. Not just because of this/NFP, although it does complicate things, but because I feel so far away from God now and like I’m walking in and out of His grace day to day. Being damned to Hell one day, go to confession and He loves me again. Mess up, be damned to Hell until the priest absolves me, and so on. What of God’s unconditional love?

kittery–I know how you are feeling, I felt this way as well…the difference is I was ignorant:blush: , as my husband was, on the sexuality aspects of marriage. What I will offer you, is that it’s a journey, and just keep walking the good walk. Keep forging forward, even if the trip gets a little foggy. I have had times when my husband and I have been ‘in the fog,’ but we keep doing our best, through God’s grace to forge past our doubts, and confusion. I wanted to add too, that priests do not absolve us, rather they in acting in the ‘persona of Christ.’ I just wanted you to know that, because many think–why does a priest have to absolve me? But, really, in a priest’s ordination, he is given the capacity to forgive sins, acting in the persona of Christ. It’s a beautiful thing. I would not get ‘hung up on’ being damned to Hell, only God can judge us on the last day, and truly, He does not expect perfection. I think that our walk with Christ would be rather dismal, if we are constantly thinking about being damned to hell, by not following this or that. We are all sinners, and we are in this together. Please feel free to pm me anytime–I was very much where you are not too long ago, although I’m a cradle Catholic.

Best wishes to you…and I’ll keep you in my prayers.

 

[ChristineML]

As far as NFP being unfair to women because they can’t have intercourse “when they most want it” (when they are trying to postpone children): what about the feelings of most men who generally have a stronger sex drive than women? If we generalize that men strongly want intercourse pretty much all the time, then abstinence is hard (or harder?) for them as it is for women, so isn’t it pointless to argue that women are suffering more with NFP? “Men suffer more. No, women suffer more. No, men suffer more.” Etc. What utter futility.

Like someone else said, periodic abstinence is better than TOTAL abstinence. Look at it that way instead of NFP’s periodic abstinence is harder than artificial birth control’s NO abstinence. (But taking into account side effects, long-term health risks, weight gain, headaches/nausea, lessened libido of hormonal methods, etc. maybe the latter is not such a quick conclusion, after all.)

When I first saw the title of this thread, “NFP as spiritual warfare,” I thought the poster was referring to a couple’s use of NFP as a spiritual weapon we can wield against our own temptations or to offer up for other’s temptations and failures in the chastity arena. The first I saw this idea raised in this thread was in marymol’s post #43. Way to go.

 

[whatevergirl]

I remember a priest saying once…no one died from lack of sex. So…if priests can completely abstain, who am I to complain about the time when during our marriage, we should abstain during certain times? Kind of puts things into perspective!

 

[newbetx]

I think I see their problem now… I should have recognized it earlier. And my appologies for being less than charitable earlier.

Originally they thought NFP was good AS LONG AS THEY WERE LOOKING TO HAVE MORE CHILDREN… Once they go to the point that told them they thought they had enough, NOW they want CONTROL over the situation, and you can’t be OPEN TO LIFE and have CONTROL simultaneously. They errantly chose the path of CONTROL over potential pregnancy rather than over themselves.

And this is where I think couples loose it… They THINK they don’t need to pay attention to NFP until AFTER they’ve reached their planned number of children. They have MANY years of fertility left and they START NFP as a contraception mechanism… Well the attitude is now avoiding pregnancy at all costs. So why not choose a mechanism that isn’t so inconvenient? Yep. That’s the trap. And these poor folks fell in it, too.

 

[Lady_D_I]

I remember a priest saying once…no one died from lack of sex. So…if priests can completely abstain, who am I to complain about the time when during our marriage, we should abstain during certain times? Kind of puts things into perspective!

I agree (to an extent). I can say abstaining is a bit easier when DH is in Spain vs. on the pillow next to me.

Yes, it does put things into perspective.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

…The Catechism translates the word as “just”, but I think it is found other places as “licit” or “grave”. The Church has not further defined what qualifies as a “just reason” for avoiding or spacing children…

Pius XII described these reasons a “indeed quite broad.” For a discussion of “just reasons” see more here:

**What is the morally correct level of children?

**

 

[itsjustdave1988]

“the three conditions for the licit practice of [NFP] are mutual willingness, mutual ability, and sufficient reason.” [John Ford, S.J. and Gerald Kelly, S.J., *Contemporary Moral Theology, Vol II, Marriage Questions, (Newman Press: 1964), p. 433].

 

[whatevergirl]

“the three conditions for the licit practice of [NFP] are mutual willingness, mutual ability, and sufficient reason.” [John Ford, S.J. and Gerald Kelly, S.J., *Contemporary Moral Theology, Vol II, Marriage Questions,

(Newman Press: 1964), p. 433].

thanks dave–what would it mean for example, if my husband or I were not willing to follow NFP? (we both are, but just for the sake of discussion) Could you better explain?

 

[itsjustdave1988]

With regard to “theological attack on women,” I don’t understand their argument.

According to Fr. Gerald Kelly, S.J. the moral distinction between NFP and artificial birth control very accurately and succinctly in his book, *Medico-Moral Problems (1958):
*

“The Church teaches that contraception is a sin because it means doing what is evil. It is not the same with [Natural Family Planning (NFP)]. Those who practice [NFP] do nothing evil. They simply omit doing something good — that is, they abstain from intercourse at the time when it might be fertile. Therefore, the morality of using [NFP] must be judged in the same way as other omissions: if the abstinence from intercourse is a neglect of duty, it is sinful; if it does not imply a neglect of duty, it is not sinful.”

Abstinence from intercourse can be a neglect of duty. However, it is not necessarily so. There can be just reasons not to have more children through the use of NFP.