NFP Hipocracy

[renee1258]

I checked out the link. It is a bit legnthy, but I will read it. It is an odd relationship, between the Pill and Fertility Awareness Methods. The Pill is trying to mimic a normal cycle, so the science has taught us more about FAM.

But the Pills has done a lot of damage also, we still can’t get by the fact it doesn’t prevent conception and fights against implantation in the womb. Also it keeps the myth that a “normal” cycle should always be 28 days, when they range from 23-35 which makes couples shy away from NFP.

There is a lot of money to make on the Pill at 30 dollars a month, a woman can easily be ont for 15 years or more in her sexual life time from 20 to 40 years of age.

 

[TarAshly]

space ghost:

There are many ways to explain the difference between artificial contraception and NFP. The most straightforward explanation goes like this: (a) there is nothing wrong with wanting, for good reasons, to limit one’s family size and (b) there is nothing wrong with married couples either having sex or not having sex; thus, since it is not wrong to want to limit your family size and there is nothing wrong with not having sex, it follows quite smoothly that there is nothing wrong with not having sex because you want to limit your family size. (pirated from CERC)

THERE IS SOMETHING VERY WRONG WITH MARRIED PEOPLE NOT MAKING LOVE (YOU MAKE IT SOUND SO CLINICAL) IT IS AN EXPRESSION OF PASSION AND LOVE FOR YOUR PARTNER IF A COUPLE IS NOT MAKING LOVE IN THEIR MARRIAGE THERE IS A DEEP SEEDED ISSUE THAT NEEDS TO BE RESOLVED!

 

[renee1258]

TarAshly:

THERE IS SOMETHING VERY WRONG WITH MARRIED PEOPLE NOT MAKING LOVE (YOU MAKE IT SOUND SO CLINICAL) IT IS AN EXPRESSION OF PASSION AND LOVE FOR YOUR PARTNER IF A COUPLE IS NOT MAKING LOVE IN THEIR MARRIAGE THERE IS A DEEP SEEDED ISSUE THAT NEEDS TO BE RESOLVED!

You don’t have to abstain for long periods of time. In most cases a week with cervical mucus observation. Women focus on the number times of sex too much. I wish I had a good research survey regarding how much sex people really have. I would say about once a week, especially with work commute and children.

Because we abstain for several days, we always feel we need to make up for lost time so we take advantage of non-fertile days, and on average probably have more sex then women on the Pill who are always available. In every marriage due to birth (8 week wait) or surgery there will be postponment of relations, nothing wrong with that.

Don’t worry about what the Joneses are doing in their bedroom.

 

[TarAshly]

well in my case i have to take the BC pill for medical reasons i have a polycycstic ovary and the only thing that keeps my functional is the pill. but even if that weren’t the case i would still use the pill. NFP to me is untrustworthy and the person who posted this thread i agree with them, they are both forms of manipulation to avoid a pregnancy. its here that i do unfortunatly disagree with my church on and i believe its a lot outdated and a little hipocritical.

 

[mercygate]

TarAshly:

well in my case i have to take the BC pill for medical reasons i have a polycycstic ovary and the only thing that keeps my functional is the pill. but even if that weren’t the case i would still use the pill. NFP to me is untrustworthy and the person who posted this thread i agree with them, they are both forms of manipulation to avoid a pregnancy. its here that i do unfortunatly disagree with my church on and i believe its a lot outdated and a little hipocritical.

Dear Tar,

Your view is a common one. It reflects a sadly unexamined view of the entire issue, and a rather limited view of the dignity of the human person. There is so much more to this than you seem to grasp. And there is truly nothing hypocritical about it.

Though you say you disagree with your Church, I rather doubt that you truly understand what your Church actually teaches on this. I would point you in the direction of Christoher West’s little book: Good News about Sex and Marriage.

 

[renee1258]

TarAshly:

NFP to me is untrustworthy

Why? Because you don’t know what it is yet. It takes many devout Catholics months or even years to get out of the contraceptive mentality. It is like taking sex ed all over again, and you will mystified why no one explained how your body really worked. From from an informational view point it is amazing. No one trusts it at first, neither did my husband.

We had to use training wheels of sorts, but once he saw my charts and I showed him the knowledge he was impressed. still it was so hard for him to over come that there was nothing “there” to protect us from pregnancy. Once we could understand no egg, no pregnancy it became easier. The “there” is us and our ability to abstain if there is fertility signs present.

 

[Marauder]

TarAshly:

its here that i do unfortunatly disagree with my church on and i believe its a lot outdated and a little hipocritical.

So who is supposed to define when a church changes its morals, the church or society? I think we have a lot of people that think they are either God or the Pope because they feel the church should change to their wishes. It’s amazing how many amateur theologians there are out there.

It is not backwards to believe in the church’s view on sexuality. How far would the AIDS crisis have gotten if people actually practiced abstinence?

Not only are you going against church teaching if you use the Pill for non-medical reasons or you use the pill for medical reasons and don’t practice abstinance but you are condemning the method that is allowed by the church.

Can you tell me what is wrong with a married couple deciding not to have sex for a week or two at a time? According to your profile you are a young unmarried person. Ask any long time married person how often they have sex. You may be suprised.

Studies done have shown that couples that use NFP are actually closer and have more intense sexual relationships then those not on NFP. What is better then having a engangment then honeymoon phase EVERY month?

Also remember NFP isn’t only for avoiding pregnancy, it is also used to get pregnant. NFP can be used for selffish reasons, but just because it CAN be used as such, doesn’t mean it should be condemned for those that use it appropriatly.

 

[mercygate]

Marauder:

Ask any long time married person how often they have sex. You may be suprised.

I’d guess that lot of those married couples will tell you they are having more sex than they actually are.

 

[renee1258]

mercygate:

I’d guess that lot of those married couples will tell you they are having more sex than they actually are.

It depends if they are doing it with each other or by themselves? Sad, but true.

 

[mercygate]

renee1258:

It depends if they are doing it with each other or by themselves? Sad, but true.

Yoiks! Hate to fear it; but I wouldn’t be surprised if you’re right.

 

[TarAshly]

Marauder:

So who is supposed to define when a church changes its morals, the church or society? I think we have a lot of people that think they are either God or the Pope because they feel the church should change to their wishes. It’s amazing how many amateur theologians there are out there.

It is not backwards to believe in the church’s view on sexuality. How far would the AIDS crisis have gotten if people actually practiced abstinence?

Not only are you going against church teaching if you use the Pill for non-medical reasons or you use the pill for medical reasons and don’t practice abstinance but you are condemning the method that is allowed by the church.

Can you tell me what is wrong with a married couple deciding not to have sex for a week or two at a time? According to your profile you are a young unmarried person. Ask any long time married person how often they have sex. You may be suprised.

Studies done have shown that couples that use NFP are actually closer and have more intense sexual relationships then those not on NFP. What is better then having a engangment then honeymoon phase EVERY month?

Also remember NFP isn’t only for avoiding pregnancy, it is also used to get pregnant. NFP can be used for selffish reasons, but just because it CAN be used as such, doesn’t mean it should be condemned for those that use it appropriatly.

Okay so if sex is soley to produce children then why does the church allow any birth control at all, why dont they condemn sex unless a woman can get pregnant. NFP is birth control. so just because im not ready to be a mom even after im married i shouldnt have sex? BIRTH CONTROL IS BIRTH CONTROL IS BIRTH CONTROL! i choose to be a little safer in the method i use. i have friends who have gotten pregnant while on the pill so in my opinion when God wants you to have a baby your gonna have a baby. do you honestly assume that God is incapable of creating a human life? when God wills it it will be done. and yes im young but i was fortunate enough to elect to become a catholic at 21 and go through the RCIA it is a HUGE part of my life. dont assume that my age means i am uniformed, just because i dont agree with everything im fed.

 

[TarAshly]

OH AND BY THE WAY HOW IS MAKING A DECISION ON WAITING TO BECOME A PARENT UNTIL YOU ARE FINANCIALLY AND EMOTIONALLY STABLE A SELFISH DESICION?!

 

[wisdom_3_5]

TarAshly:

well in my case i have to take the BC pill for medical reasons i have a polycycstic ovary and the only thing that keeps my functional is the pill. but even if that weren’t the case i would still use the pill. NFP to me is untrustworthy and the person who posted this thread i agree with them, they are both forms of manipulation to avoid a pregnancy. its here that i do unfortunatly disagree with my church on and i believe its a lot outdated and a little hipocritical.

You may be interested in the work of Dr. Thomas Hilgers, M.D. He is the founder and director of the Paul VI institute for the Study of Human Reproduction. The focus is on infertility treatment but I know that I’ve read about polycycstic ovaries.[

](http://www.popepaulvi.com)popepaulvi.com/

His basic premis is that we have a “band-aid” approach to treatment of reproductive disorders (espically women’s). The pill does not cure your problem, it only alleviates the symptoms.

 

[Scott_Waddell]

TarAshly:

Okay so if sex is soley to produce children then why does the church allow any birth control at all,

That is not correct, the purpose of sex is twofold in a particular order:

PRIMARY: The production of children.

SECONDARY: The morally legitimate (within marriage) satisfaction of the sex urge.

God did not make women fertile 100% of the time, so the conditions are not always there for the primary, so sex in infertile time moves smoothly to the secondary purpose. When you use ABC, you disrupt the order, willfully forcing the secondary to be primary. This is why the Catechism often speaks about wrongs being disordered.

Scott

 

[Marauder]

TarAshly:

Okay so if sex is soley to produce children then why does the church allow any birth control at all, why dont they condemn sex unless a woman can get pregnant.

You really need to read Theolgy of the Body or the Vatican Decree on Sexuality.

The church does not teach that sex is soley to produce children. Sexual relations within marriage are to be procreative AND unitive. All sex is supposed to be open to the possability of children but it is also for the unitive aspects.

NFP is birth control. so just because im not ready to be a mom even after im married i shouldnt have sex? BIRTH CONTROL IS BIRTH CONTROL IS BIRTH CONTROL!

The church does not condem birth control, it condemns ARTIFICIAL birth control. Of course, except the only non-artificial birth control out there is NFP and abstinance. A married couple that has sex after menopause is still open to life. Who knows what God has in mind other then God. Same goes for infertiel couples.

It’s when people artificially try to change this that goes against the church. Condems, birth control pills, tubes tied, etc. all artificially go against God’s plan.

i choose to be a little safer in the method i use. i have friends who have gotten pregnant while on the pill so in my opinion when God wants you to have a baby your gonna have a baby.

Using the pill you are artificially trying to changes God’s plan. He will do what he wants, no matter what but he still believes in free will. The problem with your approach in thinking the pill is safer is that NFP when used right is 99% effective. The pill or condems don’t even come close.

and yes im young but i was fortunate enough to elect to become a catholic at 21 and go through the RCIA it is a HUGE part of my life. dont assume that my age means i am uniformed, just because i dont agree with everything im fed.

I was only referring to your age because your view on sexuality and how often you should or will have sex is based on the fact that you are young and unmarried. You or I have no idea what your sexuality will be like after you are married or in a few years after other things happen in your life. I can assure you, things change.

 

[renee1258]

TarAshly:

OH AND BY THE WAY HOW IS MAKING A DECISION ON WAITING TO BECOME A PARENT UNTIL YOU ARE FINANCIALLY AND EMOTIONALLY STABLE A SELFISH DESICION?!

The Church would agree with you. Birth Control isn’t self control though. The Church asks for self control, that is the price to pay of sorts instead of having your body on demand for your spouse. All I can ask is for you to inform yourself about what NFP is and isn’t. If you choose to be ignorant at this time, that is your problem.

 

[Marauder]

TarAshly:

OH AND BY THE WAY HOW IS MAKING A DECISION ON WAITING TO BECOME A PARENT UNTIL YOU ARE FINANCIALLY AND EMOTIONALLY STABLE A SELFISH DESICION?!

No reason to “shout”.

I don’t know who said that waiting to become a parent until you are financially and emotionally stable is a selfish decision. The only people that can determine if your reasons for using NFP are selfish are you and your spouse in conjuction with talking it over with a priest or other religious person.

Read the Couple to Couple web page, there are numerous quotes on when it is appropriate to use NFP and why NFP is allowed. Several quotes are for JP II.

The reason waiting can be selfish (and note I am not implying anything) is that some people think that financial stability is being able to have a kid and still go on expensive vacations, have an expensive car and other things like that. There is a difference between having real financial reasons to use NFP and having selfish financial reasons for using NFP.

The same goes for emotional reasons.

 

[Brendan]

TarAshly:

Okay so if sex is soley to produce children then why does the church allow any birth control at all, why dont they condemn sex unless a woman can get pregnant.

Tar, I didn’t see where anyone said that sex is exclusively for reproduction. God and the Church fully recognize that there are times when a couple would prefer not to have children, but still look for the intamicay of marriage. God provided for this when He created fertile and infertile times in a woman’s cycle. God planned NFP!

The Church recognizes the Unity and Closeness that sex brings a married couple. In fact that is precisly why the Church condems methods that reduce sex to a physical act, while dening the deep Unity that sex entails.

so just because im not ready to be a mom even after im married i shouldnt have sex?

No, just Control when you have sex. Beside, how exactly do you know you are not ready to be a mom. Who do you think knows that better, you or God?

BIRTH CONTROL IS BIRTH CONTROL IS BIRTH CONTROL!

Have you ever heard the line 'Birth Control means No Birth and No Control?

NFP is all about Control in every sense of the word.

so in my opinion when God wants you to have a baby your gonna have a baby. do you honestly assume that God is incapable of creating a human life? when God wills it it will be done.

Right, so work with Him on it.

Tar, it took a while, but my wife and I gave up on the contraceptive mentality 4 years ago. I can honestly tell you we have never been more intimate, loving and caring. Our marital life is better in every way than when we used ABC’s. Give it a try.

 

[TarAshly]

wisdom 3:5:

You may be interested in the work of Dr. Thomas Hilgers, M.D. He is the founder and director of the Paul VI institute for the Study of Human Reproduction. The focus is on infertility treatment but I know that I’ve read about polycycstic ovaries.[

](http://www.popepaulvi.com/)popepaulvi.com/

His basic premis is that we have a “band-aid” approach to treatment of reproductive disorders (espically women’s). The pill does not cure your problem, it only alleviates the symptoms.

yes symptoms which are extremely painful, and potentially dangerous

 

[wisdom_3_5]

TarAshly:

yes symptoms which are extremely painful, and potentially dangerous

Wouldn’t you rather have your body cured than deal with these painful, potentially dangerous symptoms all your life? What about the children you want in the future? polycystic ovaries are a cause of infertility.