NFP Hipocracy

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absolutely not. my soon to be husband has diabetes very very severly and i am prepared as one can be in this type of situation to be widowed young or to lose our sex life early on. none of that matters to me i love him more than life itself. and not paralasys, death nor sex could ever effect that. he’s my heart. and i couldnt be without him no matter what the circumstances were.
My point exactly! So why would you think THERE IS SOMETHING VERY WRONG WITH MARRIED PEOPLE NOT MAKING LOVE (YOU MAKE IT SOUND SO CLINICAL) IT IS AN EXPRESSION OF PASSION AND LOVE FOR YOUR PARTNER IF A COUPLE IS NOT MAKING LOVE IN THEIR MARRIAGE THERE IS A DEEP SEEDED ISSUE THAT NEEDS TO BE RESOLVED! ?
 
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TarAshly:
my soon to be husband has diabetes very very severly and i am prepared as one can be in this type of situation to be widowed young or to lose our sex life early on. none of that matters to me i love him more than life itself. and not paralasys, death nor sex could ever effect that. he’s my heart. and i couldnt be without him no matter what the circumstances were.
I remember so well as a young woman “knowing” what you express here about the man I was engaged to. Then, during our marriage, there was a VERY long period when he was ill and we could not share our conjugal privileges. Yes, I missed it – a LOT. And, no; it didn’t change my heart for him at all. After more than 30 years of marriage, my heart still beats faster when he comes in the door at night.

I am sorry that your fiance has diabetes; this is one very BAD hereditary disease.
 
Dear La Devota and TarAshly,

Once I started a thread called “NFP circular reasoning” on almost this exact issue which went over 300 posts and did have some movement, and I did learn some things, but the nitty gritty moral difference between non-abortifcient ABC v NFP was still unresolved (afa I was concerned) when the thread was suddenly and unceremoniously closed without comment.

To me, if you are not well-informed then becoming so would not likely change your mind; neither if you are unable to persuade others to understand, much less agree, with your point of view does it mean you are not persuasive enough.

It seems that at some point, there is no “logical” explanation that makes ABC intrinsically evil and NFP conditionally OK. (I say conditionally because NFP to avoid babies is not considered licit unless it is for “serious” reasons.) It is not a logical argument at all, but an “article of faith,” as John Kerry likes to say.

Scientific opinions are subject to review and experiment so that logical arguments can be proven or disproven. The assumption is that there is an underlying truth in the physical universe (such as whether condoms do or do not transmit AIDS, and if so under what conditions and with what probability) that can be discovered by further study.

Not so with articles of faith because the underlying “truth” to be discovered is, in fact, the very teaching of the “infallible” Church. After arguing for weeks over this I am convinced that there are no definitive Biblical arguments to “prove” NFP v ABC, nor are there scientific or logical constructs based on physically axiomatic truths. You either buy that the Church is infallible on this moral issue or you do not. If you do not accept the Church’s teachings as a basis for morals, then you are on your own and without the help of the Church.

For myself, I have decided that I do not buy that the Church is infallible in her teachings on faith and morals, although I will admit she has a very high percentage rate, and I caution that anybody who knowingly and consciously differs from what the Church teaches does so at his/her own risk.

Alan
 
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AlanFromWichita:
For myself, I have decided that I do not buy that the Church is infallible in her teachings on faith and morals, although I will admit she has a very high percentage rate, and I caution that anybody who knowingly and consciously differs from what the Church teaches does so at his/her own risk.

Alan
Alan (we meet again!), do you realize that you just spent 3 or 4 paragraphs trying to persuade others to your opinion that the Church is wrong on this point,and then finish off by warning them how dangerous it is to disagree with the Church on this exact point?
Remember, just because you were not convinced by the Church’s teaching doesn’t mean that you ought to lead others astray, especialy since “anybody who knowingly and consciously differs from what the Church teaches does so at his/her own risk.”
 
Have you see/read Janet Smith’s Contraception, Why Not? (this is a and study guide for the talk) omsoul.com/pdfs/TCWN40617.pdf
Here’s her talk:
catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=4420

There are lots of great topics at omsoul.com/pamphlets.phtml

I find it amazing that some people can think they know more than the Church, which as been around for 2000 years. Maybe the Church might know a thing or two about faith and morals? Do you think you are the only person to ever struggle with understanding the Church’s teachings??? Get a grip. Study more. Pray more. Submit your will to the TRUTH!!!

God’s blessings to you all
Jennifer
 
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martino:
Alan (we meet again!), do you realize that you just spent 3 or 4 paragraphs trying to persuade others to your opinion that the Church is wrong on this point,and then finish off by warning them how dangerous it is to disagree with the Church on this exact point?
Remember, just because you were not convinced by the Church’s teaching doesn’t mean that you ought to lead others astray, especialy since “anybody who knowingly and consciously differs from what the Church teaches does so at his/her own risk.”
Here we go again!!! I didn’t realize the NFP thread was closed! Thanks for clearing that up Alan. I just thought people figured it was at an impass and decided to devote their efforts elsewhere.

I agree with Martino. Surprise, surprise! :eek: If you’re going to be a cheerleader for “we don’t have to buy everything the Church teaches on Faith and Morals”, I hope you’re positive you’re right or you’ll have some explaning to do later. There may be a millstone with your name on it (don’t have a heart attack here! Alan and I are the sarcastic types! 😉 )

All we can do is say what the Church teaches. Does anyone deny that the teaching Magisterium of the Church teaches what we are saying? Our Church is not a Church of our own interpretation. That’s a Protestant denomination. We are One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic! Some think it’s open for debate and some do not. Are we really going to go through this again? It would seem a thread should be started just for this debate. I do agree it is the underlying issue.
 
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AlanFromWichita:
For myself, I have decided that I do not buy that the Church is infallible in her teachings on faith and morals, although I will admit she has a very high percentage rate, and I caution that anybody who knowingly and consciously differs from what the Church teaches does so at his/her own risk.
Alan
Well Alan, I agree with you totally and wish I had written that! If others are led astray by such discussions and opinions, their faith is pretty weak.

Pat
 
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patg:
Well Alan, I agree with you totally and wish I had written that! If others are led astray by such discussions and opinions, their faith is pretty weak.

Pat
or Alan is pretty persuasive, it could be one or the other.
 
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patg:
Well Alan, I agree with you totally and wish I had written that! If others are led astray by such discussions and opinions, their faith is pretty weak.

Pat
EXACTLY!!! Do we want to lead the weak astray!!!
 
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bear06:
EXACTLY!!! Do we want to lead the weak astray!!!
Good question - I have some thoughts on that but I need to head home for the night - I’ll continue later.

Basically I think it is sometimes good to be led astray because doing so often leads to new growth, awareness, and conviction. If you don’t return to what you were led from, then it probability wasn’t really part of you anyway.

Existence in a “weak” state is a pretty mediocre way to live.

Pat
 
From " Contraception: Why Not?":"Now, a lot of people say, ‘What’s the difference?’ You have two couples who don’t want to have a baby and want to have sex and they’re doing the same thing. They’re trying to have sex without trying to have babies or without wanting to have babies. They’re doing the same thing. And that’s a very common confusion and a very common complaint, and I’m going to try and help you think about it.

"The first thing I want to say to such couples, such people, is, ‘Well, if contraception and Natural Family Planning are the same, why not just use Natural Family Planning?’ And you know what they say, ‘But that would be completely different. I’d have to change everything.’ I say, ‘Wait a second. You just told me there’s no difference and now you tell me it’d be completely different.’

"But, of course, what they mean is no moral difference, but they recognize that there’d be an enormous lifestyle difference. I say, ‘But wait a second. If there’s an enormous lifestyle difference, then that may be a hint that there’s some kind of a moral difference as well.’”.
 
Everyone has a right to choose to agree with the Church teaching on this one issue or to disagree with it. I’m still on the fence.

I think it is also wise to “consider the source” when rattling off effective rates of NFP vs ABC. OF COURSE the people who endorse NFP are going to say that their method is 99% effective. How would it look if they said otherwise? Just like the manufacturers of the birth control pill are going to tell women that their health risks are very low and that the pill is effective and safe.

According to an article that appeared in the August 2004 issue of Prevention magazine (a health and fitness mag): A Special Report: The New Ban on Birth Control states that “With typical use, the failure rate for NFP can be as high as 25%; for the pill, it’s 6 to 8%.” I don’t know if that statement is accurate anymore than I know if what NFP literature spouts is “typical”. Everyone has an agenda…NFP pusheres are no different than BCP pushers. I say, get as many facts as you can. READ, READ, AND READ some more. Don’t just take “their” word for it. Talk to people who have practiced NFP and ABC and see what their experiences are. Don’t limit yourself to the opinions you get from this forum.

As one poster said earlier, this is not as cut and dry a topic as many would want you to believe. I found it was like peeling back an onion — layers upon layers of things to consider. The church knew this when Popes John XXIII and Paul VI appointed a commission to discuss this very topic and to give their recommendation to the Pope. The commission was comprised of bishops, theologians, doctors, psychologists, demographers, and married couples. They recommended by a ratio of four to one that the church liberalize its teaching on contraception. Pope Paul VI decided to support the minority and ignore the recommendation of the commission. Humanae Vitae served only to reaffirm the Church’s traditional ban on contraception.

Like I said at the beginning of this post, I am still on the fence. As much as I respect the teaching authority of the Church I have yet to see the logic of this teaching (much as Alan has described in previous posts). From what I’ve been able to discern to this point, it all boils down to you either accept the authority of the Church or you don’t. Plain and simple.
 
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martino:
Alan (we meet again!), do you realize that you just spent 3 or 4 paragraphs trying to persuade others to your opinion that the Church is wrong on this point,and then finish off by warning them how dangerous it is to disagree with the Church on this exact point?
Dear Martino,

No, actually I didn’t realize that, but it’s been a while since I wrote that and now rereading it with a whole new outlook I can see how it would appear that way to you.

What you actually were witnessing there, represents a corner in a major turning point in my rhetorical attitude toward all this stuff whereby I am hereby about to announce a brand new concept (new for me anyway) that I have recognized and cultivated for a few hours now while driving around town on errands, partly alone and partly with my children.

First, the punch line. Within a context that I have not completely defined for myself, so I cannot tell you whether it matches yours, I have decided to quit claiming that the Church does not have “infallible” authority on faith and morals. I say this not because I believe the Pope has any more direct line to the Spirit compared to the rest of us as I thought several hours ago, but as a rhetorical concession because the very definition of “morality,” if not completely personal, needs a standard for sake of discussion – and why not let the Church be it, since after all, she wrote the Bible and everything. Now I am free to think what I want to think about it and say what I want to say, and the Church, government, or other people can think what they want; only I know my intentions and only God knows my heart.

Now with that out of the way, my earlier post to which you referred was my attempt at telling these people that arguing with logic and reason to try to prove y’all NFP-lovers and Church-believers wrong is pointless. I could argue all day for or against “why” NFP is morally equivalent to ABC, and others cannot convince me they are different in that they can “prove” it to me, even if I accept the Bible and some fairly generous interpretations of it as premises.

My real point in the first few paragraphs was supposed to be, then, it comes down to a matter of what do you believe? The Church teaching is clear: NFP and ABC are morally different. You can accept it or not, but you can neither prove nor disprove it – unless there are some really great arguments I haven’t heard yet.

The last paragraph I intended to be a disclaimer. I do not mind being the only one in a crowd who thinks of things a certain way, even if it makes me different from the “leaders” and “scholars.” That doesn’t make me right or wrong, but if you wish to go against the given teaching then you have to accept the backlash. For that matter, as Jesus prophesied, if you wish to go with his teaching you will also receive backlash. Either way, as Ted Nugent once said, “if you aren’t making waves then you aren’t paddling.” I think this is related to why God hates the lukewarm.
Remember, just because you were not convinced by the Church’s teaching doesn’t mean that you ought to lead others astray, especialy since “anybody who knowingly and consciously differs from what the Church teaches does so at his/her own risk.”
I fully understand that, and I accept that responsibility. 👍

If my calculations are correct, I should be gradually starting to make more sense to you about now.

Alan
 
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AlanFromWichita:
Within a context that I have not completely defined for myself, so I cannot tell you whether it matches yours, I have decided to quit claiming that the Church does not have “infallible” authority on faith and morals.
I am glad to hear this!! Now if we could just get you to believe it!! 😃
Now with that out of the way, my earlier post to which you referred was my attempt at telling these people that arguing with logic and reason to try to prove y’all NFP-lovers and Church-believers wrong is pointless. I could argue all day for or against “why” NFP is morally equivalent to ABC, and others cannot convince me they are different in that they can “prove” it to me, even if I accept the Bible and some fairly generous interpretations of it as premises.
It was indeed pointless to you, I am confident that many others would find those discussions very helpful. I also believe that the Church’s position can and was proven from a logical perspective.
My real point in the first few paragraphs was supposed to be, then, it comes down to a matter of what do you believe? The Church teaching is clear: NFP and ABC are morally different. You can accept it or not, but you can neither prove nor disprove it – unless there are some really great arguments I haven’t heard yet.
Do you hold all your beliefs up to this same “proof” test? If so, I would think it to be very difficult to be Christian at all. I do not doubt that you are a good Christian, only that you do not hold your other beliefs up to the same standards of proof you are holding here on this issue.
The last paragraph I intended to be a disclaimer. I do not mind being the only one in a crowd who thinks of things a certain way, even if it makes me different from the “leaders” and “scholars.” That doesn’t make me right or wrong, but if you wish to go against the given teaching then you have to accept the backlash.
I re-read your last paragraph and it really sounds like you are warning people about possible eternal consequences not merely backlash from other Catholics!

Of course I could be wrong, I usually am!! :whistle:
 
Everyone has a right to choose to agree with the Church teaching on this one issue or to disagree with it.
Hmmm…Is it really a “right”? I think I know it better as “free will”. I guess if you look at it in the context of the Constitution it’s a right but I’m not sure about in a theological sense. If you had a right to disagree with God why would it ever be wrong?
 
DVIN CKS:
Everyone has a right to choose to agree with the Church teaching on this one issue or to disagree with it. I’m still on the fence.

I think it is also wise to “consider the source” when rattling off effective rates of NFP vs ABC. OF COURSE the people who endorse NFP are going to say that their method is 99% effective. How would it look if they said otherwise? Just like the manufacturers of the birth control pill are going to tell women that their health risks are very low and that the pill is effective and safe.

According to an article that appeared in the August 2004 issue of Prevention magazine (a health and fitness mag): A Special Report: The New Ban on Birth Control states that “With typical use, the failure rate for NFP can be as high as 25%; for the pill, it’s 6 to 8%.” I don’t know if that statement is accurate anymore than I know if what NFP literature spouts is “typical”. Everyone has an agenda…NFP pusheres are no different than BCP pushers. I say, get as many facts as you can. READ, READ, AND READ some more. Don’t just take “their” word for it. Talk to people who have practiced NFP and ABC and see what their experiences are. Don’t limit yourself to the opinions you get from this forum.
.
I can answer that one for you. NFP is one specific fertility awareness method. Non-fertility awareness methods such as calander, rhythym, and chance are all within Church teachings as “open to life”. That 25% number includes rhythym/calander.

That quote of 25% is usually found in artifical birth control pamplets. I saw the 25% number in a IUD advertisement that was sent to my husband in his name :confused: , it combined all forms of non-artifical birth control. There is a major different to one the charts and follows the rules, and another who simply thinks she ovulates on day 14 no matter what.
 
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TarAshly:
well in my case i have to take the BC pill for medical reasons i have a polycycstic ovary and the only thing that keeps my functional is the pill. but even if that weren’t the case i would still use the pill. NFP to me is untrustworthy and the person who posted this thread i agree with them, they are both forms of manipulation to avoid a pregnancy. its here that i do unfortunatly disagree with my church on and i believe its a lot outdated and a little hipocritical.
What evidence do you have to support your claim that NFP is untrustworthy? Scientific studies have been done. When NFP is done correctly it has the same percentage of effectiveness in preventing pregnancy as the pill. I used to use bc. I stopped and 2 months later I was pregnant, we were avoiding pregnancy the first month to get some of the chemicals out of my system. After the birth of our child I was advised not to have more children because of life threatening heart condition I have. (Basically another pregnancy would kill me.) That was 9 years ago.

I have been using NFP ever since and obviously have not gotten pregnant and trust me when I’m not fertile we have plenty of sex. ( I know too much information right? :o )

NFP is not the rhythm method.

The pill has a back up mechanism that will abort a newly concieved child if you happen to ovulate any way. That is why it can be used as the morning afterpill according to some in the medical field.
 
La Devota:
I agreed with most of what it said. However, as a new teacher without tenure and a grad student working on my master’s degree with a husband working as a cashier at Meijer finishing his degree, NFP is simply TOO RISKY. We can’t afford to raise a baby right now and until we finish our degrees, we don’t have time to spend with a baby even if we had one.

I am 28 and my husband is 27. Should we have waited to get married? We shouldn’t have to. Should we abstain from sexual relations for the next year to make sure we don’t get pregnant? That is unrealistic - not to mention unhealthy for our realtionship. Just like ABC, NFP is not a 100% guaranteed method of birth control but on the flip-side, NFP isn’t nearly as effective due to human error. From my perspective, it would be flat-out irresponsible to take a chance like that given our current economic and unstable career situation.

The bottom line is, only God knows the individual circumstances of each person. It is wrong to assume that because someone chooses ABC that they aren’t as much of a Christian - or even a Catholic. God knows what’s in each and every person’s heart and although the Church says that ABC is wrong, I think it’s wrong to say it’s wrong for *everyone *without knowing everybody’s story and seeing into everybody’s heart.

Also, as a married woman for the past 2 years, I could probably count the number of times my husband and I have engaged in sexual relations on my fingers and toes. Because our relationship is so strong and God is constantly present, we have managed to abstain from sexual relations in order to observe the time that I would be ovulating if I was using NFP. Believe it or not.
I guess I’m iresponsible then? It isn’t my career on the line it’s my LIFE. But I place my trust in God. I believe in following His will not my own. It’s been 9 years. I use NFP and and if I counted our relations on my fingers and toes that would only take me less than 2 months:D !
 
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rayne89:
The pill has a back up mechanism that will abort a newly concieved child if you happen to ovulate any way. That is why it can be used as the morning afterpill according to some in the medical field.
Again…consider the source. I’m sure you have a “reliable” source that supports the above claim. I’ve read where there’s no science to back the theory that birth control pills really do discourage implantation. Anti-pill groups will often site articles written by doctors who claim that the pill MAY prevent fertilized eggs from implanting. They don’t have any REAL science to back up this claim. Especially when you consider that often fertilized eggs, for whatever reason, don’t implant into the vaginal wall even when the pill isn’t being taken. Sometimes it’s just nature’s way. There’s no guarentee that a fertilized egg will implant itself successfully even IF the womb is prepared for it. Also, if the pill made the uterus uninhabitable for a fertilized egg, then why do we hear so many stories of women getting pregnant while taking the pill? I don’t trust any source…like I said before, everyone has an agenda.
 
I heard it on the evening news. This was in the news maybe a year or two ago, the birth contol companies were promoting it being used as a morning after pill. I saw on several occasions over a several week period on news programs because it was causing a stir. This was not a “pro-life propaganda campaign” as you seem to think. THIS WAS THE LIBERAL NEWS MEDIA.
 
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