NFP: how far

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As far as the “too far” question…

I tend to give weight to God’s Plan for Fertility. If the desire in your heart is to engage in moments of intimacy when you are fertile, that is a pretty good sign that God’s plan is shining through your reasoning, and He may be moving you to be open to life in one of His most effective ways. Marriage is a Passion Play…it is the everyday sacrifice that gives flesh to the world, so to speak.

We had good friends once who were experiencing 45-60 day long phase II’s (for those unfamiliar with NFP, that is the fertile phase of the cycle). It was quite a cross for them, and when they came to us as teacher for advice, the first thing we thought to say was to ask what they think God might be saying with such an unusual pattern for fertility. They looked hard at the situation, and concluded that perhaps they did not have a “serious reason” to postpone, and when they tried for a pregnancy, God didn’t choose to give them a child. They were surprisingly dissapointed, the first month they didn’t concieve, and committed to continuing to try, and after she made some diet and excercise changes, were successful (with the Holy Spirit’s help!) after about 6 months.

Don’t get too worked up on testing the limits, but bear in mind that the limits are there to offer us a path to strenghten our discipline over our appetites. God has created a system that encourages LIFE!, which is why women’s libido is highest at the most fertile time. The “too far” issue is most important for a man, for he has the most serious responsibility in this matter. Men offer the “donation” that God uses to create LIFE!, and we must be vigilant and cautious with that power. Christ “donated” His very LIFE! for the Church, His precious Bride, and we men are to sacrifice and discipline our appetites with Christ as our guide. The best advice I have to give is that going “too far” is always the man’s responsibility…period. We must lead the way with marital chasity and sacrifice. Every woman who has a husband who can do that never has a problem with him leading his household. God asks us men to marshall our powers for the good of the Sacrament, and the good of the Church.

Remember the birth control pill was invented by a man, and benefits men much more than women, for it allows men to “use” women. We, as chaste married men, must offer our powers of fertility under discipline if we are to properly respect the beautiful Icon of LIFE! that is a woman. Every woman has been given the power, as Mary said, to “magnify the Lord”…they magnify the Lord by incubating the nurturing an unrepeatable gift, that changes eternity forever. Men today must turn the tide back to respect for women by offering our sexual powers under the correct circumstances, and with the generosity of protection and prudence that God calls us to…
 
Oftentimes couples are so certain that they will become pregnant right away and “over and over” if they trust in God alone to decide. It can be shocking to avoid for months or years, only to decide to “try” and have then “trouble” conceiving. I find it’s still a self~reliance, a way of retaining the mirage of control.

Yes, couples should prayerfully discern, but how freeing it is to prayerfully discern to attempt to forget NFP.
 
mary beth:
I guess what it comes down to is what constitutes selfish (or perhaps grave) reasons. I was horribly ill with my second and third child for about five months each, and I’m not even sure I could take care of my other three if I tried to have a fourth. Should you should continue having children until you are emotionally/physically burnt out? And unless you want to continue having children at 44 or 48, etc (unless you are Tony Randall!) there must be a point in most people’s lives where they do use NFP as an avoidance rather than as a postponement. Not only will you have the love to raise this child, but will you have the energy? With prayer, I guess most couples need to decide this for themselves.
What we were told is that you need to pray when using NFP especially during the fertile time. 1 Corinthians Chapter 7 says “Do not deprive each other, except perhaps by consent, for a time, that you may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again so that Satan does not tempt you besause of you lack of self-control.” This may sound silly, but during my fertile time I add extra prayers each month as to why we don’t feel we are ready for another child, our reason is too many bills right now and I am not mentally ready for another one just now. By doing this each month it helps to keep us from using selfish reasons(of course God knows our heart) and we re-evaluate our situation each month. For us if we didn’t add the prayerful part to it, I feel like it would just be another birth control. Most of the people I know use NFP to avoid pregnancy and they have very good reason to. One couple has not gotten pregnant for 5 yrs using NFP, in fact it works so well I think you could miss a child God wanted to send you. The main thing is always being open to do Gods will. At the end of our prayers we will say something like, You know our hearts and what we want, but you will be done.
 
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Shari:
What we were told is that you need to pray when using NFP especially during the fertile time. 1 Corinthians Chapter 7 says “Do not deprive each other, except perhaps by consent, for a time, that you may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again so that Satan does not tempt you besause of you lack of self-control.” This may sound silly, but during my fertile time I add extra prayers each month as to why we don’t feel we are ready for another child, our reason is too many bills right now and I am not mentally ready for another one just now. By doing this each month it helps to keep us from using selfish reasons(of course God knows our heart) and we re-evaluate our situation each month. For us if we didn’t add the prayerful part to it, I feel like it would just be another birth control. Most of the people I know use NFP to avoid pregnancy and they have very good reason to. One couple has not gotten pregnant for 5 yrs using NFP, in fact it works so well I think you could miss a child God wanted to send you. The main thing is always being open to do Gods will. At the end of our prayers we will say something like, You know our hearts and what we want, but you will be done.
I meant to add if you want a great book, read Christipher West’s the good news about sex and mariage. He speaks of NFP in it. It is an excellent book. 😃
 
momof8 said:
**I have always had the same question. NFP works because God designed women to be fertile only at certain times, but… He also designed women to most desire closeness at the time of ovulation. It never did seem to me to fit, either! I would really appreciate an answer on that one, too! The only answer I can think of is that NFP requires sacrifice especially on the wife’s part (although it is not easy on the husband to have to postpone closeness to his wife when she wants it most, too!) because she has to skip intercourse when she most desires it. I suppose she can pray for increased desire in the non-fertile times, but it would be nice if the body wasn’t working against NFP in that way!

I’d appreciate anyone else’s thoughts!

God bless,
Sharon

Just one question, do you think you will have no desire after menopause. You are no longer ovulating, but I am sure you will still have the desire. Just something to think about. God Bless
 
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johnnyjoe:
The “too far” issue is most important for a man, for he has the most serious responsibility in this matter. Men offer the “donation” that God uses to create LIFE!, and we must be vigilant and cautious with that power. Christ “donated” His very LIFE! for the Church, His precious Bride, and we men are to sacrifice and discipline our appetites with Christ as our guide. The best advice I have to give is that going “too far” is always the man’s responsibility…period. We must lead the way with marital chasity and sacrifice. Every woman who has a husband who can do that never has a problem with him leading his household. God asks us men to marshall our powers for the good of the Sacrament, and the good of the Church.

Remember the birth control pill was invented by a man, and benefits men much more than women, for it allows men to “use” women. We, as chaste married men, must offer our powers of fertility under discipline if we are to properly respect the beautiful Icon of LIFE! that is a woman. Every woman has been given the power, as Mary said, to “magnify the Lord”…they magnify the Lord by incubating the nurturing an unrepeatable gift, that changes eternity forever. Men today must turn the tide back to respect for women by offering our sexual powers under the correct circumstances, and with the generosity of protection and prudence that God calls us to…
I just wanted to let you know how beautifully this is phrased!! Thank you.

Any woman who is afraid to turn to God’s Plan for Fertility and relies on artificial means of birth control has NO IDEA what a wonderful, amazing gift it is to have a husband who repects her body, her fertility, and the miraculous gift of sharing in procreation. Even in months where we don’t conceive, we are intimately aware of God’s plan at work in our lives, and the beautiful nature of the relationship that we share.

I can’t even imagine what my relationship with my husband would be like if we relied on artificial birth control. It would completely ruin the most intimate part of our life together! A man who understands this is a true treasure.❤️
 
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Proud2bRC:
Please read this pamphlet from John Kippley of the Couple To Couple League at marysremnant.org/News/Archives/MaritalSexuality.html.

My wife and I taught NFP and this is the best summary I have read. I’ve never found anything quite like it online, so I posted it at the link above.
If someone wants more detail, John Kippley’s book “Sex and the Marriage Convenant” is a FANTASTIC book. I think it is designed for NFP teachers to read, but as a lay person I found it helpful too.
 
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  1. When is it moral to regulate births?
2368-2369
2399

The regulation of births, which is an aspect of responsible fatherhood and motherhood, is objectively morally acceptable when it is pursued by the spouses without external pressure; when it is practiced not out of selfishness but for serious reasons; and with methods that conform to the objective criteria of morality, that is, periodic continence and use of the infertile periods.
  1. What are immoral means of birth control?
2370-2372

Every action - for example, direct sterilization or contraception - is intrinsically immoral which (either in anticipation of the conjugal act, in its accomplishment or in the development of its natural consequences) proposes, as an end or as a means, to hinder procreation.
 
:twocents: The following is a reprint from my post at Searching for saint(s) of mothers-to-be thread. I am trying to spread the word on NFP. Email me questions if you have any.
+++
Congratulations! My Patron Saint List for Pregnant women are listed below but I MUST address the NFP issue. Such a shame that your wife is unwilling to explore the benefits of NFP. I have been using it for 2 years (since I got married, I’m 36) and I have many friends who have used it for much longer. Many secular, generally holistic women who use NFP are scared of the harmful, physical long term effects of Birth Control Pills (there are many) on women and disgusted by the supposed “authoritative-all knowing” advertising factory of the profit driven pharmaceutical industry. :mad: Yet these 18-34 year old hippies insist on a full-proof method of planning conception. Also, when done correctly, many NFP systems are conducted daily with BOTH the Husband and the Wife, NFP increases communication between spouses and enhances the Marital Bond.

NFP is not the Rhythm Method

Please take time to look up these websites below. Call (your local diocese NFP director) -tell her you’d like info, your wife is currently not interested in NFP and she’s pregnant.
Please take the initiative and approach your wife, after the birth, with a gentle request… Honey, lets talk about NFP…
One More Soul omsoul.com/
Billing Ovulation Method woomb.org/
Fitch Fertility Center www.nfpcenter.com

Contact me if you wish. My husband will be happy to tell you about our NFP experiences.
Why oh WHY don’t Diocese REQUIRE NFP training during PreCana I’ll never know…. :banghead:

%between%
I for one am thankful that they do not. My husband and I have prayerfully discerned that there are only a couple of reasons that we would avoid; these reasons would have to be so serious that we would most likely be abstaining completely for various reasons. I realize that not all couples are comfortable with this, and that is OK, Holy Mother Church in her wisdom has said that NFP is a moral way to space children. She has not said that we are REQUIRED to space children. This is why dioceses are not requiring NFP training. And I’m thankful for that; we would have been VERY resentful if forced to go to a class.
 
Lastly, ask St Dymphna to intercede on behalf of your expanding family. She is the Patron Saint of Mental Illness.
scborromeo.org/prayers/dymphna.htm
St. Dymphna? She was martyred by her own widowed father because she refused to marry him. Bless her, I’m sure she’d intercede for any of us, but I’m not sure her situation parallels ours so much as that.

St. Nonna, was the mother of St. Gregory the Theologian (Gregory of Nazianzen) and his less-famous siblings, St. Caesarius and St. Gorgonia. She was also an aunt of St. Amphilochius, Bishop of Iconium. Her husband, St. Gregory the Elder, belonged to a pagan sect when she married him, but by her prayers he converted.

St. Nonna was a model wife and mother, a remarkable woman who devoted her life to God and the Church without neglecting her other responsibilities. As her son said of her at the funeral oration of his father:

"*I have heard sacred Scripture saying: Who shall find a valiant woman? and also that she is a gift of God, and that a good marriage is arranged by the Lord. [Pagans], too, have the same thought—if indeed the saying is theirs: ‘There is no greater boon for a man than a good wife, no worse, than the opposite.

It is impossible to mention anyone who was more fortunate than my father [Gregory the Elder] in this respect. For I believe that, if anyone, from the ends of the earth and from all human stocks, had endeavored to arrange the best possible marriage, a better or more harmonious union than [Nonna and Gregory’s] could not be found. For the best in men and women was so united that their marriage was more a union of virtue than of bodies. Although they surpassed all others, they themselves were so evenly matched in virtue that they could not surpass each other. She who was given to Adam as a helper like himself, for it was not good for man to be alone, proved to be an enemy rather than a helpmate and an opponent rather than a consort….But [Nonna] who was given by God to my father became not only a helper—for this would be less wonderful but also a leader, personally guiding him by deed and word to what was most excellent.

Although she deemed it best…to be overruled by her husband in other respects, she was not ashamed to show herself his master in piety. While she is deserving of admiration for this, he is to be admired all the more for willingly yielding to her. While beauty, natural as well as artificial, is wont to be a source of pride and glory to other women, [Nonna] is one who has ever recognized only one beauty, that of the soul, and the preservation and, to the best of her power, the purification of the divine image in her soul….She recognized only one true nobility, that of piety, and the knowledge of our origin and destiny. The only wealth she considered secure and inviolate was to strip one’s self of wealth for God and the poor, and especially for kinsfolk whose fortunes had declined. Assistance merely to the extent of their need she regarded as a reminder of misfortune rather than as a release from it, but more generous benefaction [she regarded] as a means of giving honor and lasting consolation. While some women excel in the management of their households and others in piety—for it is difficult to achieve both—[Nonna] nevertheless surpassed all in both, because she was pre-eminent in each and because she alone combined the two. She increased the resources of her household by her care and practical foresight according to the standards and norms laid down by Solomon for the valiant woman [Proverbs 31], as though she knew nothing of piety. She devoted herself to God and divine things as though she were completely removed from household cares. In no wise, however, did she neglect one duty in fulfilling the other; rather, she performed both more effectively by making one support the other.

What time or place for prayer escaped [Nonna]? This was the first thought of her day. Rather, who has more confidence in gaining a petition as soon as it was made? Who had such reverence for the hands and countenances of priests? Who showed such honor for every form of philosophy? Who subdued her flesh more by fastings and watchings, or stood like a pillar during the night-long or daily singing of the psalms? Who had greater admiration for virginity, although she herself was under the bond of matrimony? Who was a better champion of widows and orphans? Who relieved to a like degree the misfortunes of the distressed? These things, small perhaps, and, it may be, even despised by some…I esteem highly, for they were the inventions of her faith and undertakings of her spiritual fervor.

So, too, her voice was never heard in the sacred assemblies or places, except when necessary and required by the liturgy…What is deserving of greater admiration is the fact that she restrained external manifestation of grief to such a degree, although she was deeply affected by the sufferings even of strangers, as never to let a cry of affliction burst forth before the Eucharist, or to let a tear drop from eyes mystically sealed, or let any sign of mourning remain when a feast day came, although many sorrows befell her. For she felt that the soul that loves God should subject all human things to the divine…*

Wow. To be like that…
 
For some reason, I thought that the question that plagued me as a teenager and 20 something, and even a thirty something would go away after I got married. As the song goes, " I know what I was feeling, but what was I thinking…" Anyway, we’ve been married a dozen years and still don’t know how far is too far when practicing NFP. I know the obvious and most intense is wrong, but what about before ? The only answers I have come accross have been too vague or sophisticated for me to understand.
Thanks
Here’s how I see it, but maybe its my limited experience. Just because a married couple starts heading down a road that could possibly lead to intercourse does not mean intercourse will happen. There may be interuptions like a crying baby, a fire, or things just cool down and stall at a nice cuddle or just falling asleep during a back massage or a foot massage given by your dearest spouse. Definitely sometimes I get into a mental uproar where I start thinking “is there a point of no return with our behavior where I’m morally obligated to attempt intercourse?” I think ultimately there is a point of no return where if you’re going to do some behavior, you have to be open to having intercourse. If something else gets in the way of it, I don’t believe a sin has occured. However, I do believe that if you are going about it expressingly forbidding yourself from having intercourse, than the same behavior that may be ok to do even if intercourse doesn’t happen, can become sinful if its obviously becoming a substitute for intercourse.

The line however is not clearly defined though because its not so much about the behavior, but about what is going on in the heart. Its definitely not as strict of a line as when you are dating or engaged. Its not that sexual expression is wrong, but that you must respect the nature of sexuality and cannot let your lustful drives seek to substitution to find satisfaction all while trying to avoid conception. You can’t have your cake and eat it too. But, like I said, if its just not going there and you were open to having intercourse, I don’t believe a sin has occured.
 
However, I do believe that if you are going about it expressingly forbidding yourself from having intercourse, than the same behavior that may be ok to do even if intercourse doesn’t happen, can become sinful if its obviously becoming a substitute for intercourse.

The line however is not clearly defined though because its not so much about the behavior, but about what is going on in the heart. Its definitely not as strict of a line as when you are dating or engaged. Its not that sexual expression is wrong, but that you must respect the nature of sexuality and cannot let your lustful drives seek to substitution to find satisfaction all while trying to avoid conception. You can’t have your cake and eat it too. But, like I said, if its just not going there and you were open to having intercourse, I don’t believe a sin has occured.
I think this is very, very spot-on. 👍
Indeed, as Jesus puts it in Mt 5,27-28 about adultery in the heart, and as JPII explains it in the TOB, it all depends on what is in your heart at this moment : are you looking for a substitue to intercourse ? or are you genuinely trying to express your love to your spouse ?
Well, this is so much more challenging than a simple rule that would tell us “you can go as far as that and not beyond” : in that case we would be able to flirt with the line and take as much pleasure as possible while still deeming us “safe”. But no, indeed there will be cases where a simple kiss may be “too far”, and maybe the next day, something “very much further” won’t be sinful.
 
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