NFP & Ideal Family Size

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BE CAREFUL… just because a family that has only 2 to 3 kids, or even only 1, does not mean they are practicing birth control. Sometimes God only blesses a couple with a small family just as much as he blesses families with multiple children.
 
BE CAREFUL… just because a family that has only 2 to 3 kids, or even only 1, does not mean they are practicing birth control. Sometimes God only blesses a couple with a small family just as much as he blesses families with multiple children.
Yes, this was my thought as well. Especially when we take into account increased ages at marriage, newer understandings on the benefits of ecological breastfeeding, and better knowledge of a women’s fertility cycle from NFP education, there are many factors that can contribute to smaller families, even in families that are following the Church’s teachings on the purpose of marriage and sexual relations. And sometimes, there are couples who would be more than willing to welcome more children, but it takes much longer to conceive for them. We should never assume our brothers or sisters are sinning, especially when such an assumption is made to support our own sinful choices.
 
Some of the comments on here kind of make me wonder. I believe that the Church never really decided to explain to specific points what “grave” matter is as far as having kids and controlling birth through NFP. I believe it varies from family to family. But I know that I would not mortgage my children’s future in order to have more children, so I understand the OP’s question. Some people on here are able to have lots of kids and don’t mind not being able to give them all of the advantages that money can buy including going to college. Personally, I believe this is “grave” matter with regards to the parents ability to support the family in a certain way. I also know there a lot of Catholics that agree with me. One poster mentioned (and I paraphrase) that one should look around and see how many families with 3 or more children there are at mass. I know, I can say at our Parish that I can name two and I’m fairly familiar with many that make up the parish due to teaching CCD. I believe (and again, this is my opinion, I’m not saying those of you that do differently are wong - I just wouldn’t do it that way) - - rather, I know that I feel that after two or three kids at most, we would have to stop. I won’t mortgage my children’s future in order to increase our family size. If something happened and despite all efforts to the contrary, I managed to get pregnant again, I suppose we’d have to find a way to deal. I’m not trying to get people with larger families upset or anything but this is how my parents saw “grave” matter for not having more kids and I have to say, I’m greatful they did that. I"m greatful for the advantages in life thier decision gave me and I would want nothing less for our kids. I pray often and believe that God will help us but I also believe that God gave us the common sense to know when having another child would cause the family to have hardships - and I don’t ever want to get in a place again like I’ve seen some friens where they’re litterally living pay check to pay check. God bless all of you that feel you can handle large families because I don’t think I could handle more than 3 or 4 kids, tops- don’t get me wrong, I believe that each child is a blessing -but as much as we want two or three kids, I’m smart enough to know that I couldn’t handle more than 2 or 3 of these “blessings” and not be certain that I could provide them with everything they needed while living comfortably - . To the original poster, you have to decide for yourself (by using the guidlines of the Church what defines “grave” matter for you. Also, if you do choose NFP, make sure you ask about secondary ovulation - and depending on your cycles, you might want to get one of the machines to back up what your seeing/feeling whille charting (if you do indded decide to go with NFP). Good Luck!
God Bless
Rye
p.s. to the poster from above, I know we shouldn’t assume that our brothers and sisters in teh Church are using abc - but it’s fairly evident from the statistics that between 70 and almost 90% of Catholics either use or don’t have a problem with ABC (depending on which “camp” you get your information from.
 
We should never assume our brothers or sisters are sinning, especially when such an assumption is made to support our own sinful choices.
Well said. We should look for the good in people to imitate it, not look for the bad so we can excuse our own sins. 👍
 
Some of the comments on here kind of make me wonder. I believe that the Church never really decided to explain to specific points what “grave” matter is as far as having kids and controlling birth through NFP. I believe it varies from family to family. But I know that I would not mortgage my children’s future in order to have more children, so I understand the OP’s question. Some people on here are able to have lots of kids and don’t mind not being able to give them all of the advantages that money can buy including going to college. Personally, I believe this is “grave” matter with regards to the parents ability to support the family in a certain way. I also know there a lot of Catholics that agree with me. One poster mentioned (and I paraphrase) that one should look around and see how many families with 3 or more children there are at mass. I know, I can say at our Parish that I can name two and I’m fairly familiar with many that make up the parish due to teaching CCD. I believe (and again, this is my opinion, I’m not saying those of you that do differently are wong - I just wouldn’t do it that way) - - rather, I know that I feel that after two or three kids at most, we would have to stop. I won’t mortgage my children’s future in order to increase our family size. If something happened and despite all efforts to the contrary, I managed to get pregnant again, I suppose we’d have to find a way to deal. I’m not trying to get people with larger families upset or anything but this is how my parents saw “grave” matter for not having more kids and I have to say, I’m greatful they did that. I"m greatful for the advantages in life thier decision gave me and I would want nothing less for our kids. I pray often and believe that God will help us but I also believe that God gave us the common sense to know when having another child would cause the family to have hardships - and I don’t ever want to get in a place again like I’ve seen some friens where they’re litterally living pay check to pay check. God bless all of you that feel you can handle large families because I don’t think I could handle more than 3 or 4 kids, tops- don’t get me wrong, I believe that each child is a blessing -but as much as we want two or three kids, I’m smart enough to know that I couldn’t handle more than 2 or 3 of these “blessings” and not be certain that I could provide them with everything they needed while living comfortably - . To the original poster, you have to decide for yourself (by using the guidlines of the Church what defines “grave” matter for you. Also, if you do choose NFP, make sure you ask about secondary ovulation - and depending on your cycles, you might want to get one of the machines to back up what your seeing/feeling whille charting (if you do indded decide to go with NFP). Good Luck!
God Bless
Rye
p.s. to the poster from above, I know we shouldn’t assume that our brothers and sisters in teh Church are using abc - but it’s fairly evident from the statistics that between 70 and almost 90% of Catholics either use or don’t have a problem with ABC (depending on which “camp” you get your information from.
It comes down to though, define “hardship”, define " everything they need." Some parents believe denying their child the latest version of a nintendo DS or the latest designer clothes is a not giving them everything they need. Some couples believe a “hardship” is buying a reliabe used car instead of new one or the kids having to wear hand-me-downs. And the amount of debt that couples assume is usually what leads them to living paycheck to paycheck, not the number of children they have. We have a huge problem in this society of people buying stuff on credit. They get themselves into a hole. That has very little to do with having children, because if it did, the only people that were consulting debt consolidation companies would be couples with large families.

And yes there are “statistics” about the acceptance of ABC among Catholics. But we have to be careful that we’re not looking at people within our own parishes and assuming they are actively using ABC because they don’t have a large family. I only have one child, and I’ve lost count of the number of comments or assumptions I’ve received that I must be using ABC because I don’t have more children. People can be very rude.
 
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Rence:
riginally Posted by Divine Muse

Rence:
NFP is reliable, it for some reason has a stigma attached to it. There are a few different methods that can be used together to make it very effective. You’re going to have to be proactive and seek it out yourself. Not many doctors and nurses will teach about it. You can research it online, and you can contact the diocese and see if there are classes available. There are books that folks here can recommend. The pill, OTOH, comes with a lot of risks like certain types of cancers, clots, stroke, pulmonary embolism. The Church only allows you to take contraception for a true medical reason, and it really is a good and sensible guideline. You should really research the various methods of NFP and work with them so that they work for you. You can’t really say it doesn’t work unless you have given it honest effort.

The only problem I have with this statement regarding NFP is that the only way you can give NFP a try to see if it works for you or not is to see if you end up pregnant or not. I have quite a few friends who stuck with it (including myself) yet found out it didn’t work for them by winding up pregnant - (and some)at an extremely bad time.

leonie
3. NFP is very reliable if you follow the rules. The problem is that many don’t follow the rules. That’s because it’s hard to abstain. It’s hard to abstain because God loves life!!! And, because of our fallen nature, any action that requires self discipline is hard, hard, hard.

I have to disagree with the above statement - I think it’s hard to abstain because often during that time of the month hormones are high and it’s hard to tell your husband “I can’t have sex with you right now” - I’ve had way too many friends get inot trouble because they couldn’t keep their hands off one another. One of my best friends who try to use NFP and have had two Oopses refers to it as “God’s cruel joke” -you know this is the time you shouldn’t have sex but it’s the time it’s often most desired.
God Bless
Rye
 
I have to disagree with the above statement - I think it’s hard to abstain because often during that time of the month hormones are high and it’s hard to tell your husband “I can’t have sex with you right now” - I’ve had way too many friends get inot trouble because they couldn’t keep their hands off one another. One of my best friends who try to use NFP and have had two Oopses refers to it as “God’s cruel joke” -you know this is the time you shouldn’t have sex but it’s the time it’s often most desired.
I don’t understand this statement in the least…

Saying “I can’t have sex with you right now” seems so dis-joined, or lacking *unity *in marriage.
No, the conversation *should *be “I’m fertile right now… Do WE, together, feel this is a time we’re prayerfully ready to accept another child or not?”

Without that basic and upfront unity, NFP will never be successful. Otherwise it’s “me” against “you”. 😊
 
I don’t understand this statement in the least…

Saying “I can’t have sex with you right now” seems so dis-joined, or lacking *unity *in marriage.
No, the conversation *should *be “I’m fertile right now… Do WE, together, feel this is a time we’re prayerfully ready to accept another child or not?”

Without that basic and upfront unity, NFP will never be successful. Otherwise it’s “me” against “you”. 😊
Very true EM. I’m currently learning creighton as a new method. (I was doing Billings, but Creighton is more accurate in p(name removed by moderator)ointing potential problems etc) Part of the booklet says that the woman should not be the ‘broker" to sex. The question is not "Can we have sex now?’ the question is, “Should we try to conceive now?”

I think that when only the wife does NFP and the husband is just going along might be a way of practicing NFP with a contraceptive mentality.
 
it is now 2010.
Alot of things have changed since the 30’s, including the value of a dollar.
This makes no sense. Truth doesn’t change. God’s law doesn’t change.

If you’re just going to respond with emotional reactions instead of honest discussion with valid points to discuss, its pointless to continue the discussion. Nothing you have brought up has actually responded to a point I’ve made, nor made any sense in a related way.
 
While the Church doesn’t tell us the number of children to have, it does call us to generosity and there is a special place for the large family in the life of the Church. Children are always a blessing.

<<The gift of a child

2373 Sacred Scripture and the Church’s traditional practice see in large families a sign of God’s blessing and the parents’ generosity.163 >>

Additionally, infertility is seen as a suffering to be borne.

Our goal in this life is to attain heaven–not to go to college. There are mulitple ways to pay for college in the event that children want to go (and as my dh is a college prof, it’s clear that not EVERYONE is cut out for college!). Having a big family doesn’t preclude an education, though.

The best gift you can give your child, is siblings. Of course, we must enter into parenthood with realistic expectations and if there is true hardship/just reasons/grave reasons , then the couples’ recourse is total abstinence or periodic abstinence (via some form of NFP). Every family is going to look different, for sure, what’s grave for one family might not be grave for another. However, we must be VERY careful that our reasons are lined up with what the Church teaches is important. Family size should be something we continue to prayerfully discern, over and over and over again…

Some research and reading:
scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a6.htm#2331 (this section of the Catechism is a good place to start)
ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2TBIND.HTM (Pope John Paul II Theology of the Body lectures)
ascensionpress.com/shop/Scripts/prodListView.asp?idCategory=45 (Christopher West’s interpretation of TOB, resources)

usccb.org/prolife/issues/nfp/index.shtml (USCCB on NFP)

nfpandmore.org/ (sympto thermal method of NFP–online manual)
ccli.org (sympto thermal method of NFP)
boma-usa.org (mucous only)
nfp.marquette.edu/ (xymptothermal with addition of fertility monitors)
 
While the Church doesn’t tell us the number of children to have, it does call us to generosity and there is a special place for the large family in the life of the Church.** Children are always a blessing**.

<<The gift of a child

2373 Sacred Scripture and the Church’s traditional practice see in large families a sign of God’s blessing and the parents’ generosity.163 >>

Additionally, infertility is seen as a suffering to be borne…
Good points, Jennifer!

Divine Muse-welcome back to the Catholic Church! I was away for a while when I was younger and also felt that I needed to explore this very issue. At that time, I was married and had three children. When we were on the cusp of going from “socially acceptable family size” (3) to a larger family, we learned some friends of ours struggled with infertility. (They eventually adopted.) Their infertility helped me put a different perspective on my own fertility and my husband’s fertility.

You seem to be putting the cart before the horse. You are not married yet and do not even know if your marriage will produce even one child, what less a large family. The philosophy that embraces contraception takes fertility for granted and regards fertility as a suffering. Every once in a while, God sends an infertile couple into the community to remind the rest of us that children are desirable blessings.

I have a large family now. We didn’t always. We started with no children, then we had one child, then two. So on and so forth. God rarely gives people a large family overnight. Each step along the way, you can evaluate your circumstances and family’s resources and then pray to know God’s will for your family.

While you explore what the Catholic Church teaches about marriage, family size and NFP, the teachings make bettter sense if you keep in mind that underlying, guiding philosophy is that fertility and children are blessings.

Have a happy and blessed Easter season. And once again, welcome back to the Catholic Church. 🙂
 
Whatever one on here seems to not mention is who is taking care of hte kids?

Jennifer J…do you work outside the home?

Sometimes, the woman works outside the home and has to put her kids in daycare.
Should she keep having kids to let the daycare raise them?

Also, what if your husband gets laid off. The economy is really bad right now.
Some women DON"T live in middle to upper class.

Anyway , as it goes, statistics speak for themselves.
Catholics ARE using contraception. Does it make it right? no…but
alot of catholics live together before marriage, have affairs, and get divorced.
Are they right? no…but it happens. DAILY !!!
 
Whatever one on here seems to not mention is who is taking care of hte kids?

Jennifer J…do you work outside the home?

Sometimes, the woman works outside the home and has to put her kids in daycare.
Should she keep having kids to let the daycare raise them?

Also, what if your husband gets laid off. The economy is really bad right now.
Some women DON"T live in middle to upper class.

Anyway , as it goes, statistics speak for themselves.
Catholics ARE using contraception. Does it make it right? no…but
alot of catholics live together before marriage, have affairs, and get divorced.
Are they right? no…but it happens. DAILY !!!
I don’t understand the point of your post… are you justifying contraception just because “everyone else is doing it”? :confused:

You’re right, the economy is bad… my husband’s job is always at risk… therefore, I also work full time. We’re able to successfully (and prayerfully) space out our children using NFP. It’s not impossible. 🤷
 
Whatever one on here seems to not mention is who is taking care of hte kids?

Jennifer J…do you work outside the home?

Sometimes, the woman works outside the home and has to put her kids in daycare.
Should she keep having kids to let the daycare raise them?

Also, what if your husband gets laid off. The economy is really bad right now.
Some women DON"T live in middle to upper class.

Anyway , as it goes, statistics speak for themselves.
Catholics ARE using contraception. Does it make it right? no…but
alot of catholics live together before marriage, have affairs, and get divorced.
Are they right? no…but it happens. DAILY !!!
No, I don’t. I’m blessed to able to stay home–though I worked when we had the first 2 and dh and I did split shifts to avoid daycare. I hate to tell you that we aren’t 'upper middle class" at this point–we’re solidly middle class (I’ll probably go back to work in a few years, when the youngest starts school).

You can “what if” all day, the same things happen to those with few kids and no kids. You make it work. Times have been A LOT tougher than they are now…should people stop having children because of that? If that was the case, we would have died out a long time ago. We have chosen to have a large family, and had circumstances been different we might have had fewer children and that makes me sad–because who would I send back? Each child adds such richness and blessing to our family. I would and do have trouble ever thinking we’re “done”, so until my fertility is removed from me by God and his wonderful fertility plan (menopause) or a medical condition precludes more children or finances become too strained, we’ll remain open to new life. So far, God has provided and that is always my prayer, “Lord, please help us provide for the wonderful blessings you have given us” (and then we work our tails off to make it all work–and we do it gladly!)

I don’t live my life according to what Others do. I live my life the way Jesus, via the Church, has asked us to (though I’m certainly not perfect, no one is). Just because people who happen to be Catholic sin and do wrong, doesn’t change the teachings nor does it make it alright for others to sin. We should all strive to do better and help each other and support each other on this journey, not to say, well, everyone else is doing it, it must be okay. Jesus told sinners to “go and sin no more”. He NEVER told people to wallow in sin.
 
Whatever one on here seems to not mention is who is taking care of hte kids?

Jennifer J…do you work outside the home?

Sometimes, the woman works outside the home and has to put her kids in daycare.
Should she keep having kids to let the daycare raise them?

Also, what if your husband gets laid off. The economy is really bad right now.
Some women DON"T live in middle to upper class.

Anyway , as it goes, statistics speak for themselves.
Catholics ARE using contraception. Does it make it right? no…but
alot of catholics live together before marriage, have affairs, and get divorced.
Are they right? no…but it happens. DAILY !!!
Ditto what others have said; not sure why you make a point that these things happen. If your point is that what the Church teaches is just an impossible ideal, well just look over this forum for starters. There are many, **many **families and individuals who DON’T do these things. And those who have but who struggle and strive to not do them any longer.
 
Whatever one on here seems to not mention is who is taking care of hte kids?
…
Sometimes, the woman works outside the home and has to put her kids in daycare. Should she keep having kids to let the daycare raise them?
Personally, as a SAHM, I think it is the best scenario, in most cases, if the mother can stay home. So as a 2 income family is discerning family size, part of that discernment should be whether or not the 2nd income is still necessary. Certainly one shouldn’t stop asking THAT question, if they are to continue asking the question of welcoming another child.

That said, while a 2 income situation is not ideal, in many cases, it is better than having no children at all. We can only speak in generalities about values and principles. Only in the most obvious cases, can WE make the judgment that someone shouldn’t be having more children (or that they should be). But the point of the Catholic teaching is that it is the welfare of the children that we are to be concerned with, not materialistic idols. So when the church tells us to be responsible in welcoming new life, it’s precisely because we need to know that we can provide for the needs (physical, psychological, spiritual) of our children (with the help of God of course). It’s not because the church agrees that mom’s should work because they want to or that families need to own cars, houses, fancy toys, new clothes etc… The main goal, in making these decisions is to ask 2 questions:

1-How does God want us to be generous right now (ie. are we called to welcome another child now?)

2-Putting our priority in service of God and our families, do we expect to be capable of providing what our children (current and the one being considered) truly need?

There will be as many different answers to those 2 questions as there are married couples asking them. It is our job as Catholics to keep our eyes and hears focused on them.
 
Two things – NFP works no matter how long or short, consistent or inconsistent a woman’s cycle is. I used to have cycles with a lot of variation – sometimes in the 20’s, sometimes as long as 50 or 54 days. (Since having babies, that has resolved.) Once I finally learned how to use NFP, it was SUCH a relief to see that my body “worked” as it should, no matter what the variation. My temperature dipped and rose with ovulation, I had a predictable luteal phase (the part of the cycle AFTER ovulation), etc. Such a relief!

The other is that too many Catholics operate on what they think the Church or Humanae Vitae (in particular) says, perhaps because they are intimidated or afraid to actually find out. I have been involved with so many debates and long discussions with people about what they think “the rules” are, without ever having taken the time to read the actual document. Once you read it, it is a LOT less scary, and a lot more clear. Here is the link to Humanae Vitae in English – the official Vatican translation (note that the official translation does not include the word “grave” as we in the US have long believed – i.e. “grave reasons”. It actually says “serious” reasons and lists economy as one possible “serious” reason).

Here a few quotes that are very clear and very accessible (I have bolded a few lines):

“With regard to physical, economic, psychological and social conditions, responsible parenthood is exercised by those who prudently and generously decide to have more children, and by those who, for serious reasons and with due respect to moral precepts, decide not to have additional children for either a certain or an indefinite period of time.”

“Neither the Church nor her doctrine is inconsistent when she considers it lawful for married people to take advantage of the infertile period but condemns as always unlawful the use of means which directly prevent conception, even when the reasons given for the later practice may appear to be upright and serious. In reality, these two cases are completely different. In the former the married couple rightly use a faculty provided them by nature. In the latter they obstruct the natural development of the generative process. It cannot be denied that in each case the married couple, for acceptable reasons, are both perfectly clear in their intention to avoid children and wish to make sure that none will result. But it is equally true that it is exclusively in the former case that husband and wife are ready to abstain from intercourse during the fertile period as often as for reasonable motives the birth of another child is not desirable. And when the infertile period recurs, they use their married intimacy to express their mutual love and safeguard their fidelity toward one another. In doing this they certainly give proof of a true and authentic love.”

Once we finally bothered to read the actual document, my husband and I were both very reassured. We have three children and will probably have another some day. But I have a history of postpartum depression and it’s important to us to take it one child at a time, and make sure that I’m healed in between. We also live on a single public school teacher’s salary, which isn’t much. But we live comfortably, without great hardship. Children don’t need as much “stuff” as we think they do. We would love to take a big vacation one day, but I can say from the smaller vacations we’ve had the fortune to take that vacations are not necessarily as relaxing and heavenly as we build them up to be in our minds. So, even that is only an “extra” which can be done without.

And no, we are not the picture of perfect money management. We’ve made plenty of mistakes, but we still make ends meet.
 
Some people have mentioned a “standard” of providing for their family-- meaning, they have a high standard of expecting to pay for their kid’s college.

Now, that isn’t a bad thing, but when one limits their family because of this particular standard, than why don’t you ask those who are paying for their own college if they would rather not exist at all.
 
Some people have mentioned a “standard” of providing for their family-- meaning, they have a high standard of expecting to pay for their kid’s college.

Now, that isn’t a bad thing, but when one limits their family because of this particular standard, than why don’t you ask those who are paying for their own college if they would rather not exist at all.
:clapping: 👍👍
 
Some people have mentioned a “standard” of providing for their family-- meaning, they have a high standard of expecting to pay for their kid’s college.

Now, that isn’t a bad thing, but when one limits their family because of this particular standard, than why don’t you ask those who are paying for their own college if they would rather not exist at all.
Right. Since when did a college education become a measure of the worth of a human life. Sadly, I know that this culture has gone that way, but I’d love to see someone who rejected a child because they thought they weren’t worth having without getting a fully paid college education, explain their POV to someone who never went to college. Like many successful, happy, (financially sufficient) well adjusted people who I know. Boy what an insult to human dignity.
 
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