NFP - Is it really natural?

[1ke]

Why is the intent in NFP moral neutral?

Because there is no positive command to have as many children as humanly possible or to have sex with any particular frequency with our spouse (be fruitful and multiply does not in and of itself preclude spacing/postponing).

Conversely, there is nothing in the moral law or deposit of faith that states that the intent to space or avoid pregnancy for a particular time or reason is immoral.

In the absence of a postive command, or negative prohibition, and in light of the explicit teaching of the church that it is not immoral, there is no reason to assert that it is otherwise.

when say Onan’s intent or action were so immoral?

Regarding his intent: There was a positive command in the Jewish Law to take as wife the spouse of a deceased, childless brother and to beget children with her. Onan’s “intent” was to not father a child by his dead brother’s wife. This transgressed that specific command-- and is what made his “intent” wrong. The general “intent” of postponing a pregnancy is not applicable in this scenario.

His action of contracepting is intrinsically disordered and immoral.

 

[Pug]

NFP sounds so cumbersome and unnatural that I can’t imagine ever being in the mood after all of that mucus checking and temperature taking. Believe me, there are better ways to spend quality time with your husband.

The taking of temps and checking does not happen at the time that the couple are having relations. It is done at a different time. Perhaps the temp was taken in the morning and they have relations in the evening. It does not interfere with quality time.

 

[lotusblossom]

My impression of NFP comes from those who post on this board.
NFP sounds so cumbersome and unnatural that I can’t imagine ever being in the mood after all of that mucus checking and temperature taking. Believe me, there are better ways to spend quality time with your husband.

My husband had a vasectomy in 1996, and I had a hysterectomy in 1999, so I don’t need to worry about birth control anymore. Prior to my husband’s vasectomy, we used the diaphragm, which was safe, effective, had no side effects, and allowed us to be spontanous in our sexual relations.

All I’m saying is this: NFP, or any other form of birth control, is a decison to be made by husband and wife. People who use NFP are no more holy than those who choose another method, so lighten up.

I will second and third previous posters - taking your temp and checking your mucus takes about thirty seconds a day and has NO interference whatsoever with spending time with your hubby.

Before I even really knew the whole NFP process (my parents are big advocates of NFP so I was familiar with the basic outline of its intention and theory), I was noticing my mucus and asked my mom about it. It’s not something new - it’s just giving an answer to a bodily process that is giving you a sign. Same with the temp. In fact, before we were married, my husband would ask to see my charts (we took the class about 8 months before our wedding) from time to time and get really excited about it all . He thought it was amazing that a woman’s body did this and I wasn’t doing anything extraordinary - just letting my body be itself.

A hysterectomy and vasectomy are both unnatural and awful to go through. Not that I’m saying this personally, but I know a lot of people who have gone through one or the other. When I took a class on human development, I was told that for a woman, the Fallopian tubes/ovaries are the most sensitive and delicate organ, and that it would be like literally chopping off a man’s sexual organ - painful. Also, a vasectomy is less popular because, for men, generally, it’s part of their “manliness” and that is the last thing they are willing to give up.

Abstaining from sex is sometimes necessary. I’ve learned from even just knowing about NFP and my husband learning about my body, he has more respect. We have had to abstain already, early on in our marriage, for what we consider major amounts of time due to health problems, but he has no problem with it because he understands and was already willing to practice this. This, in turn, makes me want to be available all the more because he is so sacrificial. That itself is a turn- on .

 

[Ham1]

I will say that it is “not the norm.” So, in that sense I suppose you could say that it is not natural (loosely). What do I mean here? Clearly, NFP is to be used when necessary or for just reasons. The fact that it is to be used in certain circumstances tells us that it is the exception and not the rule. If we look at fertility and the way God designed us, we see that he biologically intended couples to marry and have children around 2 or so years apart. However, there are some who cannot have children, some who would “naturally” have children every 11 months and some who cannot, due to circumstances, welcome another child. NFP is an exception that a benevolent Creator gives to us for those instances in which Nature doesn’t really work as he intended.

 

[mark_a]

As I read posts regarding Natural Family Planning, it occurs to me that NFP is anything but natural. Temperature taking, mucus checking, avoiding sex on certain predetermined days…what is natural about any of this?

I have to admit that I never used NFP; and from what I’ve learned here, I never would have. It sounds completely unnatural to me!

Try to remember that nfp can also be used to help get pregnant.

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

Hi Priscilla Ann,

“Natural” is just word, and it probably isn’t a good word in this context. If you referred to it the old fashioned way of “Rythm Method”, would that make any difference to your post?

I think you’re too hung up on the word “natural”.

The Church has always advised and encouraged Family Planning. It just won’t allow contraception.

The use of contraception is prohibited by the Church, because you are denying your body to your spouse. And this is seen as sinful because your marriage is suppose to represent (sacrament) Christ giving his body up completely for his Bride, The Church.

 

[SeekerJen]

My husband had a vasectomy in 1996, and I had a hysterectomy in 1999, so I don’t need to worry about birth control anymore. Prior to my husband’s vasectomy, we used the diaphragm, which was safe, effective, had no side effects, and allowed us to be spontanous in our sexual relations.\

I’m scratching my head, trying to figure out what the heck is spontaneous about a diaphragm. If I’m not mistaken, from my own days of using artificial birth control and researching the various methods, one has to fill (with spermicide) and insert the diaphragm well before intercourse- so in effect, one must plan to have intercourse. Then of course, one must leave it in place for many hours afterward so the spermicide does its thing. What happens if the latex wears and cracks, or if there is a thin spot and a tiny hole develops, or if it doesn’t form a proper seal when inserted? What happens if you want to have intercourse again? Do you take the thing out, wash it, fill it, put it back in, and wait?

All of that sounds like a completely unnatural hassle compared with taking 30 seconds in the AM to take one’s temp, and another 30 seconds to check one’s mucus. That’s even less hassle than I used to go through to get my Pill scrip refilled or the stress when I would forget to take it.

 

[Priscilla_Ann]

I’m scratching my head, trying to figure out what the heck is spontaneous about a diaphragm. If I’m not mistaken, from my own days of using artificial birth control and researching the various methods, one has to fill (with spermicide) and insert the diaphragm well before intercourse- so in effect, one must plan to have intercourse. Then of course, one must leave it in place for many hours afterward so the spermicide does its thing. What happens if the latex wears and cracks, or if there is a thin spot and a tiny hole develops, or if it doesn’t form a proper seal when inserted? What happens if you want to have intercourse again? Do you take the thing out, wash it, fill it, put it back in, and wait?

All of that sounds like a completely unnatural hassle compared with taking 30 seconds in the AM to take one’s temp, and another 30 seconds to check one’s mucus. That’s even less hassle than I used to go through to get my Pill scrip refilled or the stress when I would forget to take it.

Inserting the diaphragm with spermicide only ever took me about 30 seconds. No problem! I never had any difficulties with it at all. It worked for us. Sorry if it didn’t work well for you.

I just don’t understand why you want to force everyone to use NFP…Even our priest told us that it’s not for everyone.

By the way, I did know one Catholic couple in our church a few years years ago who used NFP…they are divorced now…after eight children. I also had an aunt and uncle who used NFP. They are now also divorced…after seven children. Those are the only couples I actually know who used NFP, or would admit it.

 

[Karin]

I just don’t understand why you want to force everyone to use NFP…Even our priest told us that it’s not for everyone.

would that be your Protestant preacher that told you that? ( I see from your profile that you are Protestant)
Did he also tell you that a vasectomy was ok? I really doubt that a Catholic Priest would say that a vasectomy was A-OK.

 

[Priscilla_Ann]

Priscilla - Could you explain your position regarding vasectomy? There is no (to my knowledge) medical indication for vasectomy (as it does not treat a disease or injury in the patient). So the surgery alters a normally functioning body part.

How in particular, does the surgical alteration of a normally functioning body part correspond with a respect for God’s creation and design or mirror the will of God? Only the married (in the eyes of the Christian) have the pleasure and duty to procreate. How can one justify surgically distorting an act that for Catholics, requires sacramental authority and for all Christian, require a certain level of faith community involvement.

Marriage is about the procreation and education of children, those who can not secondary to disease, injury or age in the normal course of life are called to procreate in other ways. Did you consider at all the sterilization or the diaphragm (or whatever) a distortion of the underlying physical rationale of marriage or did you like many, simply go along with the societal flow and now seek to justify you position and past actions?

Those who do not succumb to the contraceptive mentality are not any better than anyone else. However, just like former smokers we completely understand both sides of the track pretty well. We have seen the distortion of the martial act and it is quite frankly disgusting to observe those promoting it because we know and understand the distortion and enjoy the freedom of living in accord with the teachings of the Church. Some react do react militantly but what you are doing is the functional equivalent of smoking in front of a lung cancer patient and saying it is all about your choice.

Marriage and the acts of marriage are not just between the husband and the wife. It takes three to get married and that third party is God, who humbles himself to allow creatures like ourselves to be co-creators with him. The biological shutting of God out of the only act that is reserved to marriage by the married is a grave act and only a great sense of pride can attenuate it along with the ill advised consent of conventional societal wisdom.

I for one, feel sorry for those who are chained by devices, little pills and permanent surgical distortion. Postponing pregnancy is a cross for those who need to postpone. If Christ is the center of your marriage, the decision to postpone a pregnancy and the manner in which it is postponed should include him in the conversation. His example was always total self-giving or fasting. Christians are simply called to imitate His actions in accord with their state in life.

My position on vasectomy? It was a decision my husband and I made together, after my health issues led us to the conclusion that it would be best for our family if we did not have more children. When we married, we weren’t sure we could have any children because of my health issues; however, God blessed us with a wonderful son. We were so thankful, but decided that it would not be wise to risk another pregnancy. I offered to have my tubes tied, but my husband said that he would get a vasectomy instead, since it was a simpler procedure. That was ten years ago, and we have never regretted our decision. We have been happily married for 24 years.

 

[StephanieC]

Priscilla Ann,
May I please ask–in all sincerity, in all humility–what is the point of this thread?

 

[Priscilla_Ann]

would that be your Protestant preacher that told you that? ( I see from your profile that you are Protestant)
Did he also tell you that a vasectomy was ok? I really doubt that a Catholic Priest would say that a vasectomy was A-OK.

When my husband and I were married, in 1982, I was still a Catholic. (My husband joined the Catholic church, but we left the church about 10 years ago.) The priest who married us told our pre-marriage class that NFP is not for everyone. He made it clear that it only works when both husband and wife are committed to using NFP. Since neither of us was even remotely interested in NFP, it was obvious that it wouldn’t work for us. Back then, NFP didn’t have a very good reputation for reliability.

After we had our son and had been married for about 15 years, we decided that vasectomy was simply the best choice for us, and we have never regretted it. With my health issues and medication I was taking, another pregnancy was not a safe option. I know of many Christian couples who have chosen vasectomy. I know of one Catholic couple who serve as Eucharistic Ministers, and the husband has had a vasectomy.

Do you really want to force NFP on every couple in every situation? Pregnancy or NFP? Are those really the only options? Thank goodness I don’t have to worry about it anymore. I feel sorry young for couples who have to deal with this kind of pressure from the Catholic church.

 

[Karin]

When my husband and I were married, in 1982, I was still a Catholic. (My husband joined the Catholic church, but we left the church about 10 years ago.) The priest who married us told our pre-marriage class that NFP is not for everyone. He made it clear that it only works when both husband and wife are committed to using NFP. Since neither of us was even remotely interested in NFP, it was obvious that it wouldn’t work for us. Back then, NFP didn’t have a very good reputation for reliability.

Correct it can not work if both people are not willing to follow it.
But that does not mean that a vasectomy is acceptable or BC for that matter.
It seems that your teaching on birth control and what marriage and sex are where greatly lacking while you where in the Church…

 

[Karin]

After we had our son and had been married for about 15 years, we decided that vasectomy was simply the best choice for us, and we have never regretted it. With my health issues and medication I was taking, another pregnancy was not a safe option. I know of many Christian couples who have chosen vasectomy. I know of one Catholic couple who serve as Eucharistic Ministers, and the husband has had a vasectomy.

That is nice …Just because a catholic couple does something that is against the Church does not make it right…

 

[ST100]

I debated posting on this thread as my husband and I have only been using NFP for four months since we are newlyweds. Our main reason for delaying pregnancy is we will be traveling out of country to visit relatives. I want to mention a few things.

1. NFP is natural because it does not put foreign objects in your body.
2. The church is not okay with NFP because it is natural, but because you are not interfering with God’s plan when you practice it to delay preganancy or to get pregnant.
3. Using NFP to delay pregnancy when there is no reason is the same as a couple choosing to use artificile birth control.
4. Though my husband and I have choosen to use NFP, I do not condemn those who do not use it due to lack of knowledge about it or those who do not realize what they are doing when they use artificile birth control. Nor do I think by using it I am more holy then any one else.
5. I would say to those on both side, to give each other the benefit of the doubt as to what their intentions are.

God Bless

P.S. Please forgive the spelling errors. And if you have read another post by this name, please know both my husband and I have posted under it.

 

[Priscilla_Ann]

Priscilla Ann,
May I please ask–in all sincerity, in all humility–what is the point of this thread?

My point is this: Why do you insist that NFP is the only option for those who choose not to have more children? That is neither practical nor realistic for many couples.

On a happier note, my husband and I are travelling to San Diego tomorrow to visit our son for Thanksgiving. I have some serious packing to do…

Happy Thanksgiving!

 

[StephanieC]

My point is this: Why do you insist that NFP is the only option for those who choose not to have more children? That is neither practical nor realistic for many couples.

On a happier note, my husband and I are travelling to San Diego tomorrow to visit our son for Thanksgiving. I have some serious packing to do…

Happy Thanksgiving!

Happy Thanksgiving to you, too–safe travels! You could stop by & visit Catholic Answers’ headquarters in San Diego, ya know!

I guess I’m just scratching my head because as I understand it, you admit that you knowingly rejected a teaching of Catholic doctrine while you were Catholic, and now you’re no longer Catholic, but here you are on a Catholic forum, complaining about the same Catholic doctrine–to a bunch of Catholics!

Could the Holy Spirit be at work here, prompting you to open your heart and mind to the profound beauty and immense wisdom of this doctrine?

 

[Priscilla_Ann]

Happy Thanksgiving to you, too–safe travels! You could stop by & visit Catholic Answers’ headquarters in San Diego, ya know!

I guess I’m just scratching my head because as I understand it, you admit that you knowingly rejected a teaching of Catholic doctrine while you were Catholic, and now you’re no longer Catholic, but here you are on a Catholic forum, complaining about the same Catholic doctrine–to a bunch of Catholics!

Could the Holy Spirit be at work here, prompting you to open your heart and mind to the profound beauty and immense wisdom of this doctrine?

Stephanie:

Even though I am no longer Catholic, this issue interests me. The Catholic Church has had me “scratching my head” for 48 years! I hardly consider NFP to be a doctrine of “profound beauty and immense wisdom”. If anything, NFP is a discipline.

While in San Diego, we will be visiting my son’s Baptist church…definitely not Catholic Answers.

God Bless!

Priscilla

 

[TallyCatholic]

Okay, I have several issues with your posting Priscilla. You obviously have strong opinions against NFP which is fine. But I believe you are confusing the purpose of NFP.

Let’s be extremely clear. The church NEVER teaches that a couple who is healthy, and in good shape to have a child should deny their marriage vocation to be fruitful and multiply.

They teach that IF there are licit circumstances than a couple can avoid children at that time. But all artificial forms are “intrinisically evil” which means NEVER okay in any circumstance.

NFP is not contraception. It is understanding God’s will for you and obeying his natural order.

Now let’s get to some other points that I feel you are really twisting.

1. You say you are sick of the Catholic church forcing people to use NFP.
   Obviously you have never seen the statistics of Catholic couples practicing NFP. Many people just like you do not agree with the church on this teaching and choose to disobey the Church. Do you see priests constantly FORCING people to practice NFP? No they are TEACHING it. just like your baptist church preaches the trinity. Do they FORCE you to believe in the trinity? NFP is based on belief. A belief in God and a belief in the way he created marriage and what it means to become united in Christ through the sacrament of matrimony. Your baptist church does not force you to believe anything. They preach/teach and then ask that you believe.
2. You say that you’ve never practiced NFP. You admit that you’re weren’t very well taught in the theology of NFP. Through your own admission you claim that you really don’t even understand the basis of NFP, just that you knew some people who practiced it and it resulted in divorce, and that its just “catholic contraception”.
   How you can claim total ignorance to a subject and yet stand and criticize it and expect us to respect your opinion is beyond me. I am a scientist in cell biology, but you don’t see me walking into a physics lab touting that I know how light truely behaves in a vacuum! I go to seminars and listen to other who are “working in the field”.
   Btw, no where does the Church say that if you practice NFP your marriage is safe? How silly is that? People get divorced, that’s life! Sex and family is only one aspect of marriage, there are many other problems that can result in divorce.
3. LASTLY, you say you are perfectly happy with the choices you have made. But I just want you to ask one question to yourself. And the answer for you is going to be no, but think of the millions of women in the world that this happens to.
   When you get married (at least in the Catholic Church) one of the vows you take is to give yourself completely to your spouse, to become one with them through Christ. When you have sex this is the physical expression of your oneness with your spouse. When you take away your fertility you are purposely witholding something from this act (EVEN if you significant other is okay with it too). So what does this result in? it results in sex without consequence. Sex as purely a means to physical gratification. You have taken out the creative purpose. The desire to be one with your spouse, sex is limited. As Christopher West says, Dumpster sex.

If you’ve never heard Christopher West I would strongly suggest his talks. They are for protestants too. Its not on NFP its on what sex means. As he says its our way of participating in the holy trinity. That’s pretty heavy stuff, which is why this is such a big deal.

I am sorry this is so long. Its gonna get deleted, and its gonna get skipped over by most people. But I just wanted to talk to you. I mean its so clear you are closed minded in this and there is really nothing we can do, but I will teach until I’m dead about this teaching.

I’m glad you’ve had such an “easy life” with one child. I know it wasn’t your decision. you had health problems that governed this result. But why attack people who are practicing a hard teaching in their life and BELIEVE this teaching is Truth. What do YOU have to gain? Do you want us to agree with you? To tell you that you were right in what you and your husband has done?

Do you really think its okay becuase you’ve heard a priest say NFP is not for everyone? Have you talked to many priest? I think you are generalizing very specific instances and can be harmful to those of us on the board who are truely trying to strengthen our Catholic faith.

God Bless and I will be praying for you and your husband that you can understand our teaching and accept and respect us as Catholics as fellow believers in Christ.

 

[fix]

Thanks, but I think you transferred info from another thread. Which is not completely related but not unrelated either. Why is the intent in NFP moral neutral? when say Onan’s intent or action were so immoral?

The intentions of a NFP user or a contraceptor may be exactly the same and both may have good intentions for delaying pregnancy. The issue is that intention is not the sole determining factor in determining if an action is moral or immoral.

One who contracepts may have legitimate reasons for avoiding pregnancy, yet the means used are evil. As the expression goes the ends never justify the means.