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Feanaro_s_Wife
Guest
**
my thoughts too! With serious reason to avoid I would never assume that one cycle would be like the next…even if I had 20 in a row that were identical:shrug:**
- Status
my thoughts too! With serious reason to avoid I would never assume that one cycle would be like the next…even if I had 20 in a row that were identical:shrug:**
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busydad
Guest
OK…I’m not sure I follow the “patterns” logic going on here. If I am misinformed or misunderstood what I have read PLEASE let me know, but I am getting the feeling that some of the responses are leaning toward me making assumptions based on patterns and I don’t think that’s happened.
Here’s what I understand to be true regarding temps and CM observation:
a) there are 3 phases of the cycle.
b) only phase II is fertile
c) phase I begins on day 1 and ends at the first sign of CM
d) phase III begins on the 4th dry day after a DISTINCT and DEFINITIVE temp shift that is .4 degrees above LTL as determined by temps take at the same time EVERY morning.
e) for couples TTA the marital embrace CAN occur with a high rate of assurance during phase I and phase III.
Based on the previously stated “truths” (?) here’s my confusion:
a) DW and I did NOT engage during mensuration. Marital embrace occurred nearly 12 hours after AF ceased. However, it was believed that she was in phase I – infertile.
b) also…I have read in a previous thread here that the number of days of abstinence need only be 5 - 9 days. – this was mentioned b/c a poster had claimed that she found it was like 26 days of abstaining when TTA. She was told that was too much, BUT, based on the info I’ve been given right here we should be abstaining for 26 days???
c) I would temp and chart, DW would keep me posted on CM. NO pattern was assumed, only temp reading and CM observation.
From the tone of many of the reposes to my OP, I am getting the impression that many of you think I am a complete fool to think that charting temps and recording CM to determine the 3 phases is foolish. ???
HELP? Have I misread the info or misunderstood, or is this all just a mystery that NO-ONE really knows how to use?
Sorry if I sound argumentative or angry – I am neither. Just confused as to the accurate, reliable, dependable, and ease of a system that seems to be none of these things.
Thanks for listening…
Here’s what I understand to be true regarding temps and CM observation:
a) there are 3 phases of the cycle.
b) only phase II is fertile
c) phase I begins on day 1 and ends at the first sign of CM
d) phase III begins on the 4th dry day after a DISTINCT and DEFINITIVE temp shift that is .4 degrees above LTL as determined by temps take at the same time EVERY morning.
e) for couples TTA the marital embrace CAN occur with a high rate of assurance during phase I and phase III.
Based on the previously stated “truths” (?) here’s my confusion:
a) DW and I did NOT engage during mensuration. Marital embrace occurred nearly 12 hours after AF ceased. However, it was believed that she was in phase I – infertile.
b) also…I have read in a previous thread here that the number of days of abstinence need only be 5 - 9 days. – this was mentioned b/c a poster had claimed that she found it was like 26 days of abstaining when TTA. She was told that was too much, BUT, based on the info I’ve been given right here we should be abstaining for 26 days???
c) I would temp and chart, DW would keep me posted on CM. NO pattern was assumed, only temp reading and CM observation.
From the tone of many of the reposes to my OP, I am getting the impression that many of you think I am a complete fool to think that charting temps and recording CM to determine the 3 phases is foolish. ???
HELP? Have I misread the info or misunderstood, or is this all just a mystery that NO-ONE really knows how to use?
Sorry if I sound argumentative or angry – I am neither. Just confused as to the accurate, reliable, dependable, and ease of a system that seems to be none of these things.
Thanks for listening…
G
Good_Daughter
Guest
How did you determine you were in phase III, considering the lack of a definitive temperature shift?
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busydad
Guest
Not phase III, AF ended earlier that day…still phase I
G
Good_Daughter
Guest
I’m actually curious about the marital act on day 29. What indicated that was a “safe” day for intercourse while you were trying to avoid pregnancy?
B
bookgirl32
Guest
I don’t think you’re foolish at all. I got married in June of '06 and had my first child in March of '07
. I’m just used to the Creighton method, and from reading these posts it sounds easier to use than the others only from what I’ve read here. So I will readily admit I’m not fully informed about all of them.I’m just used to making decisions based on THAT day’s observations, and maybe the past three days if you’ve just had a peak day. So even though there are “phases” like you’re talking about (“pre-peak”, “post-peak”), they’re really just a reference point, and not something that would be a catalyst for a decision when trying to avoid.
I’d get in contact with a teacher, I’d be lost without mine!
L
LittleDeb
Guest
Yes, that was the one I was wondering about too. Maybe all of us misread the same thing, but I got the impression that the OP and his DW had relations on day 29 after no temperature shift. That’s why I pointed out that I have ovulated on day 29 many times.
Busydad: Cycles that appear anovulatory do require more abstinence. That was why I pointed out the importance of using temp shifts when entering menopause. Temps that are up down, up down, up down in a given cycle may stay anovulatory but can become ovulatory at any time. No CM could be caused simply by taking antihistamines. I get the sense that maybe you engaged on day 29 because DW saw no CM?
I’m sorry if you felt like we were uncharitable. I admit, it is waaaay easier for me to ask a woman about her CM than to ask her husband!
I would still be interested to know what her cervix did during that cycle.God bless you both. (Well, aaaaall of you
)
H
hasikelee
Guest
Quick way to solve the college issue: kid gets a parttime job and pays for her own college.
Voila.
My DH is interviewing right now for a job. You know what the job at Boeing asked for…a bachelor’s degree in business administration with at least 3 years of relevant management experience.
Thankfully he has both. But I feel purty sorry for 90% of his chums who had parents footing the bill. Now they can graduate and get a min. wage job to work their way up.
Same with my law internship. Senior standing **with **1-2 years of experience and focus in law and/or political activism.
And my personal addition to this: my friend who just graduated with two majors and a minor, a 4.0 GPA, dean’s honors, from Ave Maria college. Being holed up all day, she just didn’t have time to be part of the real world. She is currently sub-teaching at a local public school and working at Starbucks for $7hr to make ends meet. (A.k.a pay off her 1/2 of the thousands of tuition she owes)
She’s 24 and is delaying marriage for at least 4 more years due to finances.
Voila.
My DH is interviewing right now for a job. You know what the job at Boeing asked for…a bachelor’s degree in business administration with at least 3 years of relevant management experience.
Thankfully he has both. But I feel purty sorry for 90% of his chums who had parents footing the bill. Now they can graduate and get a min. wage job to work their way up.
Same with my law internship. Senior standing **with **1-2 years of experience and focus in law and/or political activism.
And my personal addition to this: my friend who just graduated with two majors and a minor, a 4.0 GPA, dean’s honors, from Ave Maria college. Being holed up all day, she just didn’t have time to be part of the real world. She is currently sub-teaching at a local public school and working at Starbucks for $7hr to make ends meet. (A.k.a pay off her 1/2 of the thousands of tuition she owes)
She’s 24 and is delaying marriage for at least 4 more years due to finances.
J
journey137
Guest
I’m going to address each of your points in detail so get ready for the novel — 
a) Yes, there are 3 phases to the cycle. Phase 2 is fertile, Phase 3 is infertile, but Phase 1 is less fertile – NOT infertile. If menstration is true menstration and not breakthrough bleeding, you are most likely safe to use the first part of phase I, but the closer you get to phase 2 the bigger of a chance you are taking if you are trying to avoid especially during times of erratic cycles (like post-partum and premenopausal). If you have very serious reasons to avoid it is recommended you wait until phase 3 and not have relations at all in phase 1 or 2.
b) Phase 1 is less fertile, not totally infertile. If your cycle is perfect and easy to read and you know how to read them perfectly every time, theoretically you would need only abstain 5-9 days because sperm can live for about a week max in an ideal environment. For those of us that don’t want to cut it quite that close in case we err in our judgement, it can be more. Usually we abstain about two weeks here. I start seeing tacky cm about day 11ish (give or take 3) and the earliest I’ve ovulated was day 20 (usually 23 or 24). My cycles are 31-34 days btw (except when I got really sick. That cycle was 41 days… had about 30 days of abstaining that cycle ).
c) There are different rules for the end of phase 1 depending on how conservative you want to be. Like I said previously, given the cycle history, phase 1 should be considered over by day 3. It sounds like you are using the last dry day rule which also happens to be the *least *conservative option available. Re-read the chapter with phase 1 rules (chapter 11 in my art of natural family planning book). Also, history does play a part in what rules you can/cannot use. For some you should have six months of charts at least, for some a year of charts. For the purposes of statistics, keep a maximum of two years of charts – older than two years is ancient history and under two years is still fairly current so your logic of the irregular cycles were months ago is a bit flawed. I think I remember seeing that you posted that she mentioned some slippery moisture issues but disregarded it… that’s where the part about making sure you follow what you see here and now instead of relying on patterns of the past few cycles is coming from.
d) Yes, but remember you have to have both.
e) Like I said earlier, phase 1 use can be tricky and should be avoided until the person charting feels they understand how to properly distinguish fertile signs confidently. Feel free to use it (we do and use the Doering rule btw), but it’s more of a risk and you should definately be aware of that, especially with serious reasons to avoid.
I am sure no one hear means to sound uncharitable or like your decisions to have (or not have) relations were stupid in any way. Flawed understanding of rules, maybe, but never stupid in any way. I’ll try and articulate the logic of my previous post in more detail since you provided more detail to work with
a) Yes, there are 3 phases to the cycle. Phase 2 is fertile, Phase 3 is infertile, but Phase 1 is less fertile – NOT infertile. If menstration is true menstration and not breakthrough bleeding, you are most likely safe to use the first part of phase I, but the closer you get to phase 2 the bigger of a chance you are taking if you are trying to avoid especially during times of erratic cycles (like post-partum and premenopausal). If you have very serious reasons to avoid it is recommended you wait until phase 3 and not have relations at all in phase 1 or 2.
b) Phase 1 is less fertile, not totally infertile. If your cycle is perfect and easy to read and you know how to read them perfectly every time, theoretically you would need only abstain 5-9 days because sperm can live for about a week max in an ideal environment. For those of us that don’t want to cut it quite that close in case we err in our judgement, it can be more. Usually we abstain about two weeks here. I start seeing tacky cm about day 11ish (give or take 3) and the earliest I’ve ovulated was day 20 (usually 23 or 24). My cycles are 31-34 days btw (except when I got really sick. That cycle was 41 days… had about 30 days of abstaining that cycle
).c) There are different rules for the end of phase 1 depending on how conservative you want to be. Like I said previously, given the cycle history, phase 1 should be considered over by day 3. It sounds like you are using the last dry day rule which also happens to be the *least *conservative option available. Re-read the chapter with phase 1 rules (chapter 11 in my art of natural family planning book). Also, history does play a part in what rules you can/cannot use. For some you should have six months of charts at least, for some a year of charts. For the purposes of statistics, keep a maximum of two years of charts – older than two years is ancient history and under two years is still fairly current so your logic of the irregular cycles were months ago is a bit flawed. I think I remember seeing that you posted that she mentioned some slippery moisture issues but disregarded it… that’s where the part about making sure you follow what you see here and now instead of relying on patterns of the past few cycles is coming from.
d) Yes, but remember you have to have both.
e) Like I said earlier, phase 1 use can be tricky and should be avoided until the person charting feels they understand how to properly distinguish fertile signs confidently. Feel free to use it (we do and use the Doering rule btw), but it’s more of a risk and you should definately be aware of that, especially with serious reasons to avoid.
M
mom_of_ten
Guest
Busydad wrote: HELP? Have I misread the info or misunderstood, or is this all just a mystery that NO-ONE really knows how to use?
YES! It is ALL a mystery, because WE are not in control, but Our God, the Giver of Life is!
I have read numerous posts from those who use NFP to avoid pregnancy state that they feel they remain “open to life” during their infertile periods because, “if God really wants us to have a child, then He can give us one then, and we would accept that as His Will”.
So, I respectfully suggest to busydad that perhaps God just “REALLY wants you to have THIS CHILD”! For reasons you might never know while on this earth, He decided to give you this most precious GIFT; even when you thought it was not a good time.
Trust that HE knows better than WE. Instead of having anxiety over what “went wrong” with your system…try to view it as something that went “REALLY RIGHT” according to God’s Will, as He saw it “good” to send you His gift of a child.
Your situation as presented in your OP, implies that you are in difficult circumstances, and thus this pregnancy and little one bring stress to your family. I will pray that you might bear that cross, and trust that God WILL help you find a way to make all the ends meet. BLESS YOU.
YES! It is ALL a mystery, because WE are not in control, but Our God, the Giver of Life is!
I have read numerous posts from those who use NFP to avoid pregnancy state that they feel they remain “open to life” during their infertile periods because, “if God really wants us to have a child, then He can give us one then, and we would accept that as His Will”.
So, I respectfully suggest to busydad that perhaps God just “REALLY wants you to have THIS CHILD”! For reasons you might never know while on this earth, He decided to give you this most precious GIFT; even when you thought it was not a good time.
Trust that HE knows better than WE. Instead of having anxiety over what “went wrong” with your system…try to view it as something that went “REALLY RIGHT” according to God’s Will, as He saw it “good” to send you His gift of a child.
Your situation as presented in your OP, implies that you are in difficult circumstances, and thus this pregnancy and little one bring stress to your family. I will pray that you might bear that cross, and trust that God WILL help you find a way to make all the ends meet. BLESS YOU.
E
Em_in_FL
Guest
Busydad… from what you have written, I would not assume your wife got pregnant from relations on day 6. Normally, when you conceive, your body temperature RISES when the embryo implants and progesterone is released in order to sustain the pregnancy. Since your wife didn’t see any temperature shift, then I would not expect that you conceived from relations on day 6. My guess would move towards day 29, when you made an assumption of being in phase 3.
Unfortunately, as you enter pre-menopause… your body can go through very odd cycles.
I highly suggest seeing an NFP teacher to learn more about reading the cervical mucous and cervical position signs.
BTW - Does your wife check for mucous internally or externally? Does she check for cervical position changes?
These indicators would have been extremely useful in determining when ovulation occurs. My guess is that she was NOT fertile for the full 23 days as you’re assuming… you probably didn’t have to abstain that entire time. You mentioned that your DW did NOT have any mucous the entire month… so if that was the case, she probably didn’t ovulate until closer to day 29 (since you probably conceived then anyway)…
I’m sorry if you thought our posts were demeaning… that’s not the case at all. I think it’s important to know that while, yes, a “normal” cycle can react in a very “normal” way… but if you don’t have a “normal” cycle then things can get complicated. Assuming things were okay on day 29 was probably where this failed for you.
But, as mom of ten has pointed out… sometimes God has plans for us that are beyond our understanding! Embrace this beautiful gift of a child… your family will be in my prayers.
Unfortunately, as you enter pre-menopause… your body can go through very odd cycles.
I highly suggest seeing an NFP teacher to learn more about reading the cervical mucous and cervical position signs.
BTW - Does your wife check for mucous internally or externally? Does she check for cervical position changes?
These indicators would have been extremely useful in determining when ovulation occurs. My guess is that she was NOT fertile for the full 23 days as you’re assuming… you probably didn’t have to abstain that entire time. You mentioned that your DW did NOT have any mucous the entire month… so if that was the case, she probably didn’t ovulate until closer to day 29 (since you probably conceived then anyway)…
I’m sorry if you thought our posts were demeaning… that’s not the case at all. I think it’s important to know that while, yes, a “normal” cycle can react in a very “normal” way… but if you don’t have a “normal” cycle then things can get complicated. Assuming things were okay on day 29 was probably where this failed for you.
But, as mom of ten has pointed out… sometimes God has plans for us that are beyond our understanding! Embrace this beautiful gift of a child… your family will be in my prayers.
L
LittleDeb
Guest
Awesome post!
We had a thread a long while back on the overuse of what some of us called a “somewhat meaningless phrase.”
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BlueRubies
Guest
wow, well not to slam NFP because I do believe in it, but let’s say some facts here. There is never a safe day - not even on a woman’s period. A woman can ovulate at any time, and even more than once in a month. In fact, I used to have a study of women who got daily ultrasounds and it showed that some women even ovualted up to 3 times in a month, if you can believe that!
Anyway, if she had some CM on 7&8, chances are she was ovulating then and being together on day 6 was the perfect day.
One thing that makes NFP hard to work with is when a woman does not have regular periods (which is common). When a woman ovulates, she has a LP which basically means a set number of days before her period arrives. So, when she has a period on day 18, that means that she likely ovulated anywhere from day 4 to 7 - and even could have ovulated while on her period. This makes it very hard to be successful at NFP because you never know when her body will ovulate.
I suggest two things - 1) invest in ovualtion kits - they will give a better idea of when she will ovulate. and 2) or do not engage in any sexual activity until you see the rise in her temps. This way you are about as safe as you can be besides absinance.
Anyway, if she had some CM on 7&8, chances are she was ovulating then and being together on day 6 was the perfect day.
One thing that makes NFP hard to work with is when a woman does not have regular periods (which is common). When a woman ovulates, she has a LP which basically means a set number of days before her period arrives. So, when she has a period on day 18, that means that she likely ovulated anywhere from day 4 to 7 - and even could have ovulated while on her period. This makes it very hard to be successful at NFP because you never know when her body will ovulate.
I suggest two things - 1) invest in ovualtion kits - they will give a better idea of when she will ovulate. and 2) or do not engage in any sexual activity until you see the rise in her temps. This way you are about as safe as you can be besides absinance.
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BlueRubies
Guest
Oh, also, she would have gotten pregnant from the 6th. It’s not really possible to get a positive on day 36 from sex that occured on the 29th. It takes at least a good 9-10 days (more like the 10) to get a positive test. It doesn’t happen that fast.
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busydad
Guest
OK…possible turn of events!!!
DW started spotting yesterday and seems to be in the midst of a full fledged bleeding episode today. Needless to say we are concerned and I am full of hugs for her.
BIG QUESTION: Could this be the a MC? If so, do we start charting again? Do we wait? We’ve been through 6 pregnancies but NEVER a MC. What do we do?
Thank you for the many comments, advice and discussions that have been offered and please…keep em coming!
What do we do now???
DW started spotting yesterday and seems to be in the midst of a full fledged bleeding episode today. Needless to say we are concerned and I am full of hugs for her.
BIG QUESTION: Could this be the a MC? If so, do we start charting again? Do we wait? We’ve been through 6 pregnancies but NEVER a MC. What do we do?
Thank you for the many comments, advice and discussions that have been offered and please…keep em coming!
What do we do now???
C
Chovy
Guest
I am so very sorry that this is happening, BusyDad. I would recommend that your wife see her doctor. They may be able to do an ultrasound to check on your baby or do bloodwork to see what is happening.
Prayers for your little one that he or she is safe in your wife’s womb or in the arms of God, and prayers for your family as they go through this difficult time.
Prayers for your little one that he or she is safe in your wife’s womb or in the arms of God, and prayers for your family as they go through this difficult time.
Mary_Gail_36
New member
Hi, If it is a miscarriage, I am so sorry to hear this.
I recently went through this. Is her OB available?
She could get some blood work to determine her levels of hcg to see if they are rising or falling.
My prayers are with you and your family.
I recently went through this. Is her OB available?
She could get some blood work to determine her levels of hcg to see if they are rising or falling.
My prayers are with you and your family.
J
Jennifer_J
Guest
If she got a postive pregnancy test, she might want to call a doctor and have her hormone levels tested to either confirm the miscarriage or find out what is wrong. Without a temperature rise, or was there one? I’m not sure she was pregnant…she sould visit the doctor, asap.
You both should also take a real class in NFP, from an instructor, in whatever method you like.
ccli.org
boma-usa.org
creightonmodel.com
Prayers and God bless
B
BlueRubies
Guest
Sometimes women can have what seems like a period even though she is pregnant. While there are come false positives out there, the rule is if there’s a line, no matter how faint, she’s pregnant - pregnancy tests are almost 100% effective. Some women get a positive and start their period and believe the test was wrong - when most likely they experienced an early miscarriage. Unfortunately, miscarriage in the first trimester is not uncommon - this is the period of time when the baby is developing and if there is some kind of problem, usually it will just stop growing and will result in a miscarriage.
The posters are right - she will need a blood test and then another in a couple of days. Every couple of days her HGH levels should double, if they fall, it means there is a miscarriage. I am sorry you are going through this. She really needs to get to her OB ASAP.
The posters are right - she will need a blood test and then another in a couple of days. Every couple of days her HGH levels should double, if they fall, it means there is a miscarriage. I am sorry you are going through this. She really needs to get to her OB ASAP.
L
LittleDeb
Guest
I don’t have advice if it is a MC. I just don’t have the experience, but do chart again just to see where you are.
What a great hubby you are!! Lots of hugs and prayers from this direction too, for you and your lovely wife.
What a great hubby you are!! Lots of hugs and prayers from this direction too, for you and your lovely wife.
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