NFP Makes No Sense To Me

[Mrc]

FWIW, the choices are not just NFP or contraception. I follow the teachings of the Catholic Church and don’t do either. Simply Breastfeeding as God designed has provided natural child spacing. I know that some women become pregnant right away despite Breastfeeding, I’m just saying. Coming into the fullness of faith has been a lesson in humility and the church’s teaching in this area is a great call to holiness. Everything about God’s design of men/women/marriage/babies is!!!

Just imagine if God had the same attitude about love – that it didn’t matter…a lot of us wouldn’t be here. The teachings of the church show us what love truly is. Love can’t be changed. We have to submit to love. We have to fall into love/God. It’s easy to look at some Protestant contracepting couples from the outside and assume they must have great marriages but then if you step back and look at all the destruction the acceptance of contraception has done to our society, it’s enough to make a person depressed.

About the Protestant couples - the ones I know are truly happy. But I agree totally! If you look at what contraception has done to our society… But has contraception caused this to our society by married couples using it or by increasing the amount of sex outside of marriage? In my opinion, contraception has caused sex outside of marriage to become prevalent (and this has caused much evil). I’m not so sure contraception has caused much evil to society by married Christian couples using it. Although I believe that contraception is also a major factor in causing the increased number of extramarital affairs.

 

[Xantippe]

“It is an NFP issue and there is nothing seriously wrong here.”

Look, I’ve got years of experience with the relevant body parts, and I’m telling you that your wife’s symptoms (painful intercourse during Phase 3) are not normal for a healthy younger woman. (It is, however, sadly common for older women to have pain during intercourse–I’ve seen a number of letters here on that subject.)

It may be a psychological, rather than a physiological issue (and the psychological issue might genuinely have something to do with NFP), but there’s an issue here.

 

[KellyPalmer]

About the Protestant couples - the ones I know are truly happy. But I agree totally! If you look at what contraception has done to our society… But has contraception caused this to our society by married couples using it or by increasing the amount of sex outside of marriage? In my opinion, contraception has caused sex outside of marriage to become prevalent (and this has caused much evil). I’m not so sure contraception has caused much evil to society by married Christian couples using it. Although I believe that contraception is also a major factor in causing the increased number of extramarital affairs.

Our sins always harm society. It’s easier to see how contraception causes harm outside of marriage than in but the 2 can’t be separated. Once you separate love from responsibility, they are separated. Look how many married couples have abortions after failed contraception!! Another big one is that married couples who contracept then provide the example to their children that contraception is ok. Our biggest responsibility as parents I’d to raise our children in truth as its so important for their eternal souls.

 

[Xantippe]

Plain old low libido is one of the possibilities that comes to mind (that would be consistent with your report of her drop-off in interest days after getting married).

Keep working with different specialists (OB/GYN, psychologist, possibly a physical therapist?). I’m not sure if there are any sex therapists that aren’t creepy, but there might be just some obvious problem with what you’re doing. (No details, please!)

 

[KellyPalmer]

It is an NFP issue and there is nothing seriously wrong here.

This is not an NFP issue. Sex should not be painful. I’ve had many periods of months, even years without sex in my marriage and sex has never been painful. It’s not normal for sex to be painful as you describe. That seems to be the main issue and its a serious one.

 

[Mrc]

“It is an NFP issue and there is nothing seriously wrong here.”

Look, I’ve got years of experience with the relevant body parts, and I’m telling you that your wife’s symptoms (painful intercourse during Phase 3) are not normal for a healthy younger woman. (It is, however, sadly common for older women to have pain during intercourse–I’ve seen a number of letters here on that subject.)

It may be a psychological, rather than a physiological issue (and the psychological issue might genuinely have something to do with NFP), but there’s an issue here.

Like I said, I won’t go into details.

It’s an NFP issue. I’m not saying NFP is bad or wrong because of this. I’m 100% for NFP.

 

[Mrc]

Ok, it seems that everyone here knows my wife’s body better than we do and knows her health better than her doctors do. Well, then, since that is the case, I will concede that it is not an NFP issue.

 

[Calliso]

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=571645 So I was just reading this thread about how many ‘safe days’ you have while using nfp. Honestely, it seems like nfp causes a lot of strain on marital life. It makes it seem like sleeping in the same bed with your own spouse is sleeping with temptation. I just don’t understand. It seems as though the only difference between using nfp and using contraception is more or less sex. You say it’s an issue of trusting God? Well I don’t see how a peice of latex is going to get between me and the will of the Divine Creator. If he wants me to have a kid, I don’t think my pinky-ring going to stop him. You say it’s an issue of being open to life? Well counting your ‘safe days’ to have sex on the two or three of them that you can isn’t a very “lets get pregnant!” attitude, either. You’re upset with me for not “throwing caution to the wind” and having more Catholic babies? What if I already have three or four?

My point is, I just don’t see any reason why there should be so much strain on marital relationships. I’m not married, I don’t have sex, I strongly believe in the legitimacy of the Catholic faith, but I find it difficult to tell others to stay faithful to the Church’s teaching when I don’t even find it necessary. I’ve been struggling with trying to reconcile with this teaching for some time. I used to say that I just don’t get it, now I’m thinking it just doesn’t make sense.

I’m not trying to sound arrogant, I’m just genuinely trying to tell you that it just doesn’t make sense to me. I’m not trying to place myself above the Church, but how am I supposed to defend something that deep down I know doesn’t make sense?

With upmost sincerity, PBWY all <3

Yeah I never really understood why NFP is ok but things like condoms are not. I think a more consistant position would be to say that no form of birth control is allowed and you just let kids come when they come. I would not agree with such a position but I think it would make more sense. But maybe the other replies will help you get it haha I haven’t in all the time I have been here.

 

[Em_in_FL]

I came here to post this and this is the right thread. If you practice nfp and your marriage doesn’t take strain, you’re very lucky. My wife and I haven’t been able to have sex for almost a year now. We recently had our first child and now there isn’t a single dry day and thus no phase 3. Sure the theory is awesome, but practically you can’t abstain for over a year and not take strain.

Before we conceived, we would hardly have time for intimacy simply because infertile phases were so short. In addition, every phase 3 would be like starting over and it would hurt so badly for my wife that she ended up in tears. Even at the end of every phase 3 it would still hurt but it would be bearable. This didn’t improve for the two years until we conceived.

Nfp is great for communication and knowing when you’re fertile when you want to conceive, but with nfp there is no sex life. Nfp has destroyed my wife’s sex drive completely. Basically, with nfp, you only have good sex once for every child you conceive.

We say we practice nfp but in fact we just don’t have sex. Is it so bad to not have sex? No. But when you love someone this much and can’t physically give yourself to her completely and can’t receive her completely it really really sucks!

We’re pretty much experts and our interpretations are spot on. And regardless, no amount of measuring can make phase 2s shorter and phase 3s longer and help us get into a rhythm which makes it not painful.

Thanks for the advice though. I’ll look into Marquette, but we’re already accurate with the charts.

Her cycles are text book, just long phase 2s and short phase 3s. There are no medical issues whatsoever.

I agree with nfp, but it is a lot of sacrifice. Almost excessive. The thing is that if you can’t give each other 100% (but only 98%) then you must give 0%. So 0% is better than 98%.

We have many protestant friends who obviously use contraception and all are happy in their marriages and are close to each other. They have beautiful, happy children. With nfp, my wife and I share hardly any intimacy. And not for lack of trying or of love for each other. So although I complain about it, nfp still does make sense, I just know that my wife and I would have a more fulfilled and healthy sex life were we to use condoms. In other words, the importance of nfp is greater than the importance of a healthy sex life. And we are so blessed in so many other ways.

Thanks for this reply. We use STM too. The painful sex is caused by us not ever being able to have regular sex and due to the dryness of phase 3. We have also used lubrication, but that makes it worse. We have had it checked out. We’re 100% nfp, very much in love and very happy. We just don’t have a sex life.

I’m guessing you have got to admit that using a condom and having sex during phase 2 is pretty awesome?

My wife’s cycles are normal. There it’s no doubt about it. We knew so and without even asking, it was confirmed by at least 3 of the best ( independent) gynaecologists in our country (and that’s saying a lot).

Hormonal contraceptives are just stupid. It’s amazing how something that horrible has become the norm.

Nfp utterly destroyed my wife’s sex drive. It’s a fact. I’m not going into detail. It took at least a year for mine to come right. Before we got married, it was almost impossible to abstain ( no matter when in my wife’s cycle), but we got good at it - good practice for nfp… After being married for just a few days that sexual energy vanished and now it’s completely the opposite, even in phase 2.

But as I’ve said in previous posts, nfp it’s still great and makes sense and living chastely is more important than having a sex life.

Ok, it seems that everyone here knows my wife’s body better than we do and knows her health better than her doctors do. Well, then, since that is the case, I will concede that it is not an NFP issue.

Having a “regular” cycle that she can track does not mean she doesn’t have hormonal imbalances. Long phase 2’s and short phase 3’s are not “normal” (statistically) or “healthy”.
Many OB/GYN’s are not familiar with the details on hormonal balances, which is why many OB/GYN’s simply like to slap every woman on the easy-pill and say “problem solved”, when in all reality they’re just covering up the symptoms of an underlying problem.

Tracking your cycle with the STM will not answer the question of hormonal imbalances. And, while I’m a HUGE STM fan (it’s always worked great for me), I have heard that many women who experience hormonal issues tend to have more questions answered through the Creighton Method and the NaPro Technology doctors. But, sometimes finding a local NaPro Doctor can be a problem. If that’s the case, then I encourage you to find a specialists in the area of fertility hormones - specifically a Reproductive Endocrinologist, who can run specific tests on her hormone levels and treat those possible imbalances appropriately.

What your wife is experiencing is not a “healthy” cycle, even though it may be “regular”. It’s not “normal” to experience pain and excessive dryness. You may need to dig deeper by going to different medical experts (NaPro or RE) rather than regular OB/GYNs.

Prayers for you all!

 

[The_Bucket]

Yeah I never really understood why NFP is ok but things like condoms are not. I think a more consistant position would be to say that no form of birth control is allowed and you just let kids come when they come. I would not agree with such a position but I think it would make more sense. But maybe the other replies will help you get it haha I haven’t in all the time I have been here.

Because women are not fertile at all times. Times of natural fertility are part of God’s design. We are not frustrating his design by choosing to engage in relations during infertile times and refraining during fertile times. We are still fulfilling the necessary requirements for sexual relations in that they are unifying and ordered towards procreation.

And again I’ll note that it has nothing to do with “natural” versus “unnatural.” Withdrawal and other forms of sexual contact that lead to intentional ejaculation outside of intercourse are also illicit.

 

[Em_in_FL]

Yeah I never really understood why NFP is ok but things like condoms are not. I think a more consistant position would be to say that no form of birth control is allowed and you just let kids come when they come. I would not agree with such a position but I think it would make more sense. But maybe the other replies will help you get it haha I haven’t in all the time I have been here.

This really is the full essence of the teaching:

What doesn’t make sense?

Each time a couple comes together in the marital act it must be objectively ordered to both procreation and unity.

The couple can choose to have intercourse or not. They cannot choose to disorder the act of marital intercourse.

It’s really quite simple. Choose to engage or refrain. That’s the choice the couple is making. When they have a serious reason to avoid a pregnancy, NFP simply provides information that can help them decide which they will choose. When a couple is trying to become pregnant, NFP again gives them information to help them decide which they will choose.

 

[Calliso]

Because women are not fertile at all times. Times of natural fertility are part of God’s design. We are not frustrating his design by choosing to engage in relations during infertile times and refraining during fertile times. We are still fulfilling the necessary requirements for sexual relations in that they are unifying and ordered towards procreation.

And again I’ll note that it has nothing to do with “natural” versus “unnatural.” Withdrawal and other forms of sexual contact that lead to intentional ejaculation outside of intercourse are also illicit.

Yeah I guess I understand all that. IDK its just all so confusing I guess being non-Catholic I donlt have to worry about it heh. I mean I can understand the difference between the pill and nfp for instance my main issue is things like condoms. I guess I have just had a hard time understanding the difference between going ok I am going to observe small changes in things in my body such as temperature and mucus and try and make sure I only have sex when I can’t get pregnant versus oh I will just slip on a condom. Both have the exact same intents and being that condoms are supposed to be less effective then properly used NFP people like to talk about how NFP is as good as using the pill effectiveness wise isn’t using a condom more open to life? IDK probably missing something obvious and being non-Catholic I obviously wasn;t taught all this growing up it just seems sometimes posters have to leap through loops trying to condemn all forms of birth control but nfp abstainance.

 

[Em_in_FL]

Yeah I guess I understand all that. IDK its just all so confusing I guess being non-Catholic I donlt have to worry about it heh. I mean I can understand the difference between the pill and nfp for instance my main issue is things like condoms. I guess I have just had a hard time understanding the difference between going ok I am going to observe small changes in things in my body such as temperature and mucus and try and make sure I only have sex when I can’t get pregnant versus oh I will just slip on a condom. Both have the exact same intents and being that condoms are supposed to be less effective then properly used NFP people like to talk about how NFP is as good as using the pill effectiveness wise isn’t using a condom more open to life? IDK probably missing something obvious and being non-Catholic I obviously wasn;t taught all this growing up it just seems sometimes posters have to leap through loops trying to condemn all forms of birth control but nfp abstainance.

It’s not about effectiveness…
When using a condom you are still having sex. You are going through the motions that are intended/created as both unitive and procreative… and you are thwarting the purpose of those motions.
When abstaining you are respecting the completeness of what sex is intended/created to be by avoiding it altogether.

 

[Calliso]

It’s not about effectiveness…
When using a condom you are still having sex. You are going through the motions that are intended/created as both unitive and procreative… and you are thwarting the purpose of those motions.
When abstaining you are respecting the completeness of what sex is intended/created to be by avoiding it altogether.

OK I guess I understand this idk this stuff is just stuff I donlt get heh. Anyway good luck to the OP I hope she got her question answered.

 

[PaulGH]

Yeah I guess I understand all that. IDK its just all so confusing I guess being non-Catholic I donlt have to worry about it heh. I mean I can understand the difference between the pill and nfp for instance my main issue is things like condoms. I guess I have just had a hard time understanding the difference between going ok I am going to observe small changes in things in my body such as temperature and mucus and try and make sure I only have sex when I can’t get pregnant versus oh I will just slip on a condom. Both have the exact same intents and being that condoms are supposed to be less effective then properly used NFP people like to talk about how NFP is as good as using the pill effectiveness wise isn’t using a condom more open to life? IDK probably missing something obvious and being non-Catholic I obviously wasn;t taught all this growing up it just seems sometimes posters have to leap through loops trying to condemn all forms of birth control but nfp abstainance.

You say that “Both have the exact same intents” (referring to NFP and condoms). But a good intent by itself is not enough to make an act morally good. For example, I have the intent to obtain enough money to feed, clothe, and house my family. This is a good intent. I could choose to fulfill this intent by getting a job. Or I could choose to fulfill this same intent by robbing a bank. Obviously one choice is morally right, and the other is morally wrong, even though they have the same intent, and even though the intent is good.

In summary, the statement “A and B both have the same intent” is not a valid argument for proving that if A is permissible, then B must also be permissible.

 

[KellyPalmer]

About the Protestant couples - the ones I know are truly happy. But I agree totally! If you look at what contraception has done to our society… But has contraception caused this to our society by married couples using it or by increasing the amount of sex outside of marriage? In my opinion, contraception has caused sex outside of marriage to become prevalent (and this has caused much evil). I’m not so sure contraception has caused much evil to society by married Christian couples using it. Although I believe that contraception is also a major factor in causing the increased number of extramarital affairs.

Oh and in addition to what I said earlier – contraception acceptance makes it easier for married couples to cheat on each other.

 

[thewanderer]

You say that “Both have the exact same intents” (referring to NFP and condoms). But a good intent by itself is not enough to make an act morally good. For example, I have the intent to obtain enough money to feed, clothe, and house my family. This is a good intent. I could choose to fulfill this intent by getting a job. Or I could choose to fulfill this same intent by robbing a bank. Obviously one choice is morally right, and the other is morally wrong, even though they have the same intent, and even though the intent is good.

In summary, the statement “A and B both have the same intent” is not a valid argument for proving that if A is permissible, then B must also be permissible.

Yeah, this seems to be the main problem that everyone has with the Church’s position. They see that condoms and nfp to avoid (which is just abstinance folks) have the same intention so they assume that there must be no other reason to differentiate between them. But an example that might help clarify that the intention is not the only factor in determining morality is that of a husband who is living in a bad neighbourhood and needs to get more money so that he can move to a better and safer neighbourhood for his family. He could either take on extra hours and cut spending until he has enough money or he could kill off his rich aunt. Both actions would have the same intent, to get the money needed to provide his family a safe home, but one is clearly moral while the other is clearly immoral. Intent is not the only thing to take into account. When people think the Church’s teaching on this is inconsistant it stems from a lack of understanding about what the Church’s teaching actually is. The Church ** try to distinguish NFP to avoid (ie periodic abstinance) from condoms etc based on intent. Rather the distinction the Church makes is based on means.**

 

[UUTDad]

Because women are not fertile at all times. Times of natural fertility are part of God’s design. We are not frustrating his design by choosing to engage in relations during infertile times and refraining during fertile times. We are still fulfilling the necessary requirements for sexual relations in that they are unifying and ordered towards procreation.

And again I’ll note that it has nothing to do with “natural” versus “unnatural.” Withdrawal and other forms of sexual contact that lead to intentional ejaculation outside of intercourse are also illicit.

This seems like a word game. If you are deliberately avoiding times when you are likely fertile, and only having sex when likely infertile, you have the same intent as a person using contraception. Either way, the end goal is avoiding pregnancy. If you never have sex when fertile, then the act is not ordered toward procreating.

 

[ishnianqueen]

Ok, it seems that everyone here knows my wife’s body better than we do and knows her health better than her doctors do. Well, then, since that is the case, I will concede that it is not an NFP issue.

I know you’re getting frustrated. I can only speak for myself, but I think the reason why everyone who has responded to you saying that something isn’t right is because there’s just a lot of what seems to be contradictory statements going on - really, in all the posts on this thread from you. “NFP is great! But it sucks.” or “We don’t really know what’s going on, but we’re pretty much experts.” or “We can’t have sex a lot and when we do, it hurts her, and she’s not really interested (and there are more details but I’m not going to share them), but she’s totally 100% fine.” It can’t be both.

Personal experience - check out the condition vaginismus. It’s more a psychological conditioning problem than a physical problem. Pretty much, the woman’s muscles in her pelvic region tense up, and the tension causes the pain. Physically, nothing is actually wrong with the woman, as everything is in perfect working order, but there is some kind of mental and physical training to undo. Sometimes, it’s because of previous pain, sometimes it’s because of being brought up thinking that sex is dirty and not allowed, sometimes it just happens, but it can be overcome with some mental unblocking and physical exercises and time.

Anyway, just my $.02.

 

[ishnianqueen]

UUTDad, the poster above you mentioned intent in terms of morality and church teaching. Yes, intent plays a factor, but you are allowed, as a married couple, to use your discretion and limit children or how quickly they come (responsible parenthood - if you can’t afford 6 kids, you don’t have to have 6 kids). The difference is the means to the end - using a natural cycle of infertility to your advantage is very different from actively thwarting the process by using a barrier or drug or other means of contracepting.