NFP marketing, is promoting it right?

[PaulinVA]

I’m not very sure what “reached your kid limit” means, it seems vague to me. “Medical conditions,” sure. “financial,” sure. “or whatever…” Uhh, not so much. That seems to be the idea of one who wants to be in control, instead of letting God provide for your well-being and happiness.

I would say that most people, sometime before their fertility is gone, are done having kids. We are too old is a perfectly valid reason. Just, if you will.

The Church’s (and NFP advocates) concept that each and every month the couple is evaluating whether to have another child is out of touch. My wife finished menopause in her fifties. Do you really think that at 48 we were evaluating every month whether to try to have a child? Of course not.

The idea that letting God provide for your wellbeing and happiness is great. But, God gave us a mind and he gave us free will. Our job is to use our well-formed conscience and our intellect to make good decisions with our free will. We should not make bad decisions and hope God provides.

 

[omgriley]

So, looking from where I am today, I would never throw rocks at the young couple that wants to travel now, because this may be their only opportunity for the next 25+ years, and who knows what life has in store for them? They may wind up with a disabled child who needs round-the-clock care. You never know.

That’s well and good. But the Church teaches that the primary purpose of marriage is the procreation and education of children. It would be wrong to vow one’s self to such a life and then delay that purpose in order to fulfill some wanderlust out of fear that we might never get to see the world.

 

[Xantippe]

The Church’s (and NFP advocates) concept that each and every month the couple is evaluating whether to have another child is out of touch. My wife finished menopause in her fifties. Do you really think that at 48 we were evaluating every month whether to try to have a child? Of course not.

Yeah. When reasons are serious enough (like UbiCaritas and not rupturing and dying), you don’t need to think it over every month.

But that might perfectly well apply to our hypothetical couple on their world tour.

 

[ByWhatAuthority]

We should not make bad decisions and hope God provides.

That is a loaded statement! You seem to be suggesting that NOT using nfp is somehow bad and relying on God to provide is what?? irresponsible?? God gave us intelligence yes! He also expects us to have faith. Extreme nfp users, seem to over think things. Maybe that’s the problem. They are over thinking everything and faith gets tossed aside.

 

[omgriley]

I would say that most people, sometime before their fertility is gone, are done having kids. We are too old is a perfectly valid reason. Just, if you will.

My father and mother were 47 and 45 respectively when they had their last child 17 years ago. My grandmother and grandfather also adopted my cousin while in their 60’s. Considering the advancements of medical science and the increasing longevity of people in general, “we’re too old” is arguable.

The Church’s (and NFP advocates) concept that each and every month the couple is evaluating whether to have another child is out of touch. My wife finished menopause in her fifties. Do you really think that at 48 we were evaluating every month whether to try to have a child? Of course not.

The Church does not ask you to attempt to have children every time you engage in the marital act. As soon as you stop separating God from the Church, this will be much easier to understand. When you marry, you are vowing to be always willing to accept children. You are not asked to actively conceive every month. But if it is God’s will to send you children, you must be open to that.

The idea that letting God provide for your wellbeing and happiness is great. But,

No, just let go and let God take care of you.

Our job is to use our well-formed conscience and our intellect to make good decisions with our free will.

Our job is to use our free will in the service of God. The primary purpose of marriage is to raise children. If you’ve reach a point in your marriage where that is not possible (menopause, medical conditions, financial burdens) then you’re not obliged to try. But you cannot tell God that you’re finished having kids because you’ve just reached your limit.

 

[ByWhatAuthority]

The Church does not ask you to attempt to have children every time you engage in the marital act. As soon as you stop separating God from the Church, this will be much easier to understand. When you marry, you are vowing to be always willing to accept children. You are not asked to actively conceive every month. But if it is God’s will to send you children, you must be open to that.

Very well said @omgriley !! My thoughts exactly!

 

[Xantippe]

But the Church teaches that the primary purpose of marriage is the procreation and education of children. It would be wrong to vow one’s self to such a life and then delay that purpose in order to fulfill some wanderlust out of fear that we might never get to see the world.

But to put it the other way around, once one has booked and embarked on that trip, is it wrong to abstain in order to avoid having to cancel or dangerous medical situations?

Or what if the couple is doing some sort of service work together (for example, a medical mission) in a low-resource country?

Or what if a couple that has children decides to do that world tour (perhaps tagging along with daddy for work) for educational reasons, but the parents are concerned that medical conditions for pregnancy and childbirth are unsafe in the country in question?

Are couples never to have any goals other than procreation and education of children during their fertile years?

 

[ByWhatAuthority]

@xantippe no one in your hypothetical country can deliver a baby safely??? If that’s the case, as a married couple maybe you should have a game plan if she were to become pregnant while you were in that hostile territory. Maybe an at home birth…

 

[omgriley]

Are couples never to have any goals other than procreation and education of children during their fertile years?

I’m well aware that there are a million and one “what if” scenarios. However, the guiding principle is: Couples are never to frustrate the purpose of their marriage (raising children) without a serious reason.

Or what if a couple that has children decides to do that world tour (perhaps tagging along with daddy for work) for educational reasons, but the parents are concerned that medical conditions for pregnancy and childbirth are unsafe in the country in question?

If it’s so unsafe as to give birth in that country, why bring your children there for such a long period of time?

Traveling while pregnant is actually very safe and doesn’t pose any risk to the baby or mother in itself. If the pregnancy has prior complications, the traveling might not help. But on it’s face, pregnant women are fine to travel (with the exception of very later term pregnancies).

 

[EnglishTeacher]

I think NFP, a.k.a. being aware of and tracking your fertility, is great knowledge to have. Contrary to what some may think, it is heavily used by couples trying to conceive, not just for “timing,” but also because the symptoms/signs recorded in the chart give valuable information to a properly trained doctor, who can discover hormone imbalances or other disorders that may be impairing a woman’s fertility.

As to using NFP to avoid or postpone pregnancy, which is what I think the OP has an issue with, what would be the alternative? Should women not be taught how to read their fertility, or must couples be morally obliged to have relations on days which they know to be fertile?

I can understand the OP’s discomfort with how it is often “marketed,” though, especially as many are receiving the impression that you have to use NFP to be a good Catholic. I recommend this article by a Catholic author who uses NFP but believes that the Church needs to do a better job in being realistic about it when promoting it: Five Ways I Don’t Love Natural Family Planning.

 

[Xantippe]

But you cannot tell God that you’re finished having kids because you’ve just reached your limit.

Why not?

Look, I’m 42, I’m a slow fat mom of three with a bad foot who feels too old for my 5-year-old. I have two children on the autism spectrum (I’m just finishing potty training the 5-year-old), my mom had a mastectomy and chemotherapy when she was a smidge younger than I am today, my third pregnancy ended with the baby dying at 13 weeks gestation and then a long recovery for me, my fourth and last pregnancy was extremely difficult and scary (bleeding and then gestational diabetes) and required my husband to do 90% of kid and housework, our youngest needs therapy that we can’t pay for now, my husband wants me to work soon and make some money for the kids’ school (it is a very good school, but not cheap) and my husband is (naturally) scared to death of me getting pregnant again, as the last two pregnancies taxed us to the limit.

I’m not going to say that I’m done, and I know that 40-something women have babies and do JUST FINE, but I’m not exactly waving my arms and telling God, “PICK ME!!!”

 

[Xantippe]

Maybe an at home birth…

You really don’t want to hear what I think about planned home birth.

 

[omgriley]

Why not?

Because it’s God’s life, not yours. He’s in charge. Not you. If you let Him take care of you, He will, and will not give you more than is possible to handle.

Look, I’m 42, I’m a slow fat mom of three with a bad foot who feels too old for my 5-year-old. I have two children on the autism spectrum (I’m just finishing potty training the 5-year-old), my mom had a mastectomy and chemotherapy when she was a smidge younger than I am today, my third pregnancy ended with the baby dying at 13 weeks gestation and then a long recovery for me, my fourth and last pregnancy was extremely difficult and scary (bleeding and then gestational diabetes) and required my husband to do 90% of kid and housework, our youngest needs therapy that we can’t pay for now, my husband wants me to work soon and make some money for the kids’ school (it is a very good school, but not cheap) and my husband is (naturally) scared to death of me getting pregnant again, as the last two pregnancies taxed us to the limit.

I’m not going to say that I’m done, and I know that 40-something women have babies and do JUST FINE, but I’m not exactly waving my arms and telling God, “PICK ME!!!”

↓↓↓↓

“And now, your relative Elizabeth in her old age has also conceived a son; and this is the sixth month for her who was said to be barren. For nothing will be impossible with God.” Then Mary said, “Here am I, the servant of the Lord; let it be with me according to your word.” Then the angel departed from her.” --Luke 1:36-37

"And Samuel said, “Speak, for your servant is listening.” --1 Samuel 3:10

 

[TheLittleLady]

But the Church teaches that the primary purpose of marriage is the procreation and education of children.

Partially true. Primary ends of marriage are procreation, conjugal fidelity and relief of concupiscence.

 

[TheLittleLady]

will not give you more than is possible to handle.

Source please, in official doctrine, not somebody’s opinion.

 

[omgriley]

Partially true. Primary ends of marriage are procreation, conjugal fidelity and relief of concupiscence.

There cannot be multiple primary ends to something. The Church teaches:

“By its very nature the institution of marriage and married love is ordered to the procreation and education of the offspring, and it is in them that it finds its crowning glory” (CCC 1652).

“Married couples should regard it as their proper mission to transmit human life and to educate their children” (CCC 2367).

And to piggyback on your point, Aquinas (the greatest theologian and doctor of the Church), while not speaking with magisterial authority, is not to be under appreciated, says:

“It is clear that offspring is the most essential thing in marriage, secondly fidelity, and thirdly [the] sacrament; even as to man it is more essential to be in nature than to be in grace, although it is more excellent to be in grace” (Summa Theologiae)

 

[omgriley]

Source please, in official doctrine, not somebody’s opinion.

You want me to site Church teaching which clarifies that God will not give you more than you can handle?

Umm… How about the entire Catechism of the Catholic Church and 95% of the New Testament.

 

[PaulinVA]

The Church does not ask you to attempt to have children every time you engage in the marital act. As soon as you stop separating God from the Church, this will be much easier to understand. When you marry, you are vowing to be always willing to accept children. You are not asked to actively conceive every month. But if it is God’s will to send you children, you must be open to that.

God’s will to send you children" is an anti-science explanation. We know how babies are made. I explained the biology up thread. God doesn’t just send us children. We are co-creators with him, cooperating with his biology. It doesn’t just happen.

God’s will for me is to know him and love him and spend eternity with Him. It’s not to have a certain number of children or to create a child this month.

Our job is to use our free will in the service of God. The primary purpose of marriage is to raise children. If you’ve reach a point in your marriage where that is not possible (menopause, medical conditions, financial burdens) then you’re not obliged to try. But you cannot tell God that you’re finished having kids because you’ve just reached your limit.

Raise children, not keep having them.

WE are co-creators with God. Of course I can tell Him I’ve reached my limit. Absolutely.

Before I reply to any more of your posts on this thread would you please disclose:

Are you married?
Do you have children?
What is your general age range?

 

[TheLittleLady]

CCC 1652 is taken from http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_...vat-ii_const_19651207_gaudium-et-spes_en.html

“Ordered toward procration” and “crowing glory” do not equal the sole ends of marriage.

When you keep reading GS, you stumble on this nugget:

Marriage to be sure is not instituted solely for procreation; rather, its very nature as an unbreakable compact between persons, and the welfare of the children, both demand that the mutual love of the spouses be embodied in a rightly ordered manner, that it grow and ripen. Therefore, marriage persists as a whole manner and communion of life, and maintains its value and indissolubility, even when despite the often intense desire of the couple, offspring are lacking.

CCC 2376 is amazingly followed by

2368 A particular aspect of this responsibility concerns the regulation of procreation. For just reasons, spouses may wish to space the births of their children. It is their duty to make certain that their desire is not motivated by selfishness but is in conformity with the generosity appropriate to responsible parenthood. Moreover, they should conform their behavior to the objective criteria of morality:

When it is a question of harmonizing married love with the responsible transmission of life, the morality of the behavior does not depend on sincere intention and evaluation of motives alone; but it must be determined by objective criteria, criteria drawn from the nature of the person and his acts, criteria that respect the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love; this is possible only if the virtue of married chastity is practiced with sincerity of heart.

 

[TheLittleLady]

Just one CCC paragraph. In fact, I will donate $5 to the poor box if you can find that one!