NFP question

[godisgood77]

What to do when there is not serious reason to avoid a pregnancy?

So my wife, says she is content and grateful for the two children we have (which of course I am too). We are well off financially, have a very good group of friends with shared faith and common interests and are both 37. Here is the issue… we have been using NFP for birth control for several months. She is very loose with charting… which ends up with us having a very conservative approach to abstinence - meaning we about 10 days of ‘open’ time. This is problematic for me… as I believe that the marital embrace is a renewal of our marriage vows and has a sacramental nature. She recently equated sex to just another form of communication…of course it is a form of conversation, but it is higher than most forms of communication as it is reserved for married couples and has been ordained by God and the Church to have unitive, procreative and sacramental nature.

I’m probably just venting at this point… but I’m frustrated that we are not open to children, we are practicing birth control for no good reason and my spouse has diminished our embrace to the same level as a hand shake or a chat.

this is hard…

 

[7armyrugrats]

I’ll pray for you both. NFP is not supposed to be used that way, but it happens more often than people care to admit. If there is no reason to avoid pregnancy than a couple should not be using NFP at all. But I think it is even more troublesome that your wife has such a low regard for intimacy. Can you get her to explain this more? Does she have no desire or is she tired? Could it be hormonal? Are there areas of your marriage she is not happy with?

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

What to do when there is not serious reason to avoid a pregnancy?

So my wife, says she is content and grateful for the two children we have (which of course I am too). We are well off financially, have a very good group of friends with shared faith and common interests and are both 37. Here is the issue… we have been using NFP for birth control for several months. She is very loose with charting… which ends up with us having a very conservative approach to abstinence - meaning we about 10 days of ‘open’ time. This is problematic for me… as I believe that the marital embrace is a renewal of our marriage vows and has a sacramental nature. She recently equated sex to just another form of communication…of course it is a form of conversation, but it is higher than most forms of communication as it is reserved for married couples and has been ordained by God and the Church to have unitive, procreative and sacramental nature.

I’m probably just venting at this point… but I’m frustrated that we are not open to children, we are practicing birth control for no good reason and my spouse has diminished our embrace to the same level as a hand shake or a chat.

this is hard…

I could have written your post a few years ago. I think this is common. It is the reason my wife and I abandoned NFP. Our life is much simpler now.

 

[Xantippe]

godisgood77 said:

“She is very loose with charting… which ends up with us having a very conservative approach to abstinence - meaning we about 10 days of ‘open’ time.”

How about you involve yourself more with the charting process and take more responsibility. You can be reminding her to do temperatures and doing charting (depending on method, of course).

I have to say, we’re about your age (41 and going on 39), and even with much better charting, 10 days is probably roughly how much we have, too (Days 1-4, 4th day of temperature rise-end of cycle). I wouldn’t get my hopes up with expecting more exact charting to yield more. But maybe you guys need to work harder at taking better advantage of what you’ve got?

Given that you have only 2 kids, maybe it’s time to invest more in your relationship and date more seriously, rather than just leaving each other the scraps of what’s left from the rest of your lives? You might be doing that without realizing it.

“This is problematic for me… as I believe that the marital embrace is a renewal of our marriage vows and has a sacramental nature. She recently equated sex to just another form of communication…of course it is a form of conversation, but it is higher than most forms of communication as it is reserved for married couples and has been ordained by God and the Church to have unitive, procreative and sacramental nature.”

How old are your kids, by the way? If the youngest is an infant or a small toddler, I think it would be fair to tell you to cool it for the near future. You may be pressing her at an inappropriate time.

“I’m probably just venting at this point… but I’m frustrated that we are not open to children, we are practicing birth control for no good reason and my spouse has diminished our embrace to the same level as a hand shake or a chat.”

Why do you assume that she’s reduced it to “just” a hand shake or a chat? Remember that communication is supposed to be part of the very essence of a good marriage. If she says that sex is a form of communication, there’s a good chance that she’s not denigrating it at all.

There may be a breakdown of communication in your marriage, without your realizing it. Talk more and find opportunities when it’s just you two, no kids, and no friends. It may be that you are giving off a vibe that marital relations are the only way you know of showing love, while her needs for other communication and spending time together alone not having sex are not being met.

 

[maryjk]

What to do when there is not serious reason to avoid a pregnancy?

So my wife, says she is content and grateful for the two children we have (which of course I am too). We are well off financially, have a very good group of friends with shared faith and common interests and are both 37. Here is the issue… we have been using NFP for birth control for several months. **She is very loose with charting… which ends up with us having a very conservative approach to abstinence - meaning we about 10 days of ‘open’ time. This is problematic for me… **as I believe that the marital embrace is a renewal of our marriage vows and has a sacramental nature. She recently equated sex to just another form of communication…of course it is a form of conversation, but it is higher than most forms of communication as it is reserved for married couples and has been ordained by God and the Church to have unitive, procreative and sacramental nature.

**I’m probably just venting at this point… but I’m frustrated that we are not open to children, **we are practicing birth control for no good reason and my spouse has diminished our embrace to the same level as a hand shake or a chat.

this is hard…

So, I have a question.

If your wife was more attentive to NFP and charting, and it opened more days for “the marital embrace,” would you be posting this?

If so, I apologize. But you never indicated anything about your reasons for using NFP.

 

[underacloud]

So, I have a question.

If your wife was more attentive to NFP and charting, and it opened more days for “the marital embrace,” would you be posting this?

If so, I apologize. But you never indicated anything about your reasons for using NFP.

I can understand the OP’s frustration. He seems to be saying that his wife is closed off the having more children, and he disagrees that they need to avoid, but she’s also lax in the charting, so their opportunity for intimacy is further reduced.

I like Xantippe’s suggestion of trying to date each other again. 2 children is not many, so it shouldn’t be hard to find time for each other, to go on dates and prioritise each other. Look to find your intimacy apart from sex and I’m sure the sex will begin to take care of itself.

Also, if I may be blunt - perhaps your wife isn’t enjoying the sex as much as she’d like, so you could consider whether you need to be more attentive to her. Many men, myself included, need to remind ourselves of this at times.

 

[maryjk]

I can understand the OP’s frustration. He seems to be saying that his wife is closed off the having more children, and he disagrees that they need to avoid, but she’s also lax in the charting, so their opportunity for intimacy is further reduced.

My point was that the OP seemed to more concerned about her lax charting, and his wife’s general lack of interest, than whether or not they have a reason to delay having another child.

 

[underacloud]

My point was that the OP seemed to more concerned about her lax charting, and his wife’s general lack of interest, than whether or not they have a reason to delay having another child.

I’m not sure that’s fair. The OP said:

“there is not serious reason to avoid a pregnancy”

“I’m frustrated that we are not open to children, we are practicing birth control for no good reason”

He is clear that he doesn’t have reasons for avoiding pregancy - the reasons are solely his wife’s - so I’m not sure what your point is. Or are you implying that he doesn’t seem to be aware of why his wife is trying to avoid and should discuss this further with her?

 

[ahs]

What to do when there is not serious reason to avoid a pregnancy?

So my wife, says she is content and grateful for the two children we have (which of course I am too). We are well off financially, have a very good group of friends with shared faith and common interests and are both 37. Here is the issue… we have been using NFP for birth control for several months. She is very loose with charting… which ends up with us having a very conservative approach to abstinence - meaning we about 10 days of ‘open’ time. This is problematic for me… as I believe that the marital embrace is a renewal of our marriage vows and has a sacramental nature. She recently equated sex to just another form of communication…of course it is a form of conversation, but it is higher than most forms of communication as it is reserved for married couples and has been ordained by God and the Church to have unitive, procreative and sacramental nature.

I’m probably just venting at this point… but I’m frustrated that we are not open to children, we are practicing birth control for no good reason and my spouse has diminished our embrace to the same level as a hand shake or a chat.

this is hard…

If she is practicing NFP “for no good reason”, and you are open to more children while she is not, then I would guess there is more going on than meets the eye. The fact that she refers to sex as just another form of communication tells me that there is somthing going on there that is BEGGING for a couselor (Catholic preferably, or at least Christian). In that case, I would say you defintely have a “just cause” to avoid conception. The “just causes” are not jsut what YOU think they are, they are what you BOTH are going through. It sounds like your spouse is going through something that needs to be addressed.

 

[maryjk]

I’m not sure that’s fair. The OP said:

“there is not serious reason to avoid a pregnancy”

“I’m frustrated that we are not open to children, we are practicing birth control for no good reason”

He is clear that he doesn’t have reasons for avoiding pregancy - the reasons are solely his wife’s - so I’m not sure what your point is. Or are you implying that he doesn’t seem to be aware of why his wife is trying to avoid and should discuss this further with her?

I am implying that he hasn’t had a conversation about it with his wife.

In fact, it sounds like from what he has said, she is just not as interested in sex as he is.

"which ends up with us having a very conservative approach to abstinence - meaning we about 10 days of ‘open’ time. "

“This is problematic for me.”

“my spouse has diminished our embrace to the same level as a hand shake or a chat.”

Maybe I have just read too many posts like this. In most of them, it comes down to, he wants more sex, she doesn’t. So he claims she isn’t open to children as a kind of, “I got you.”

So I asked, if she was more careful in her charting, and there were plenty of open days, would he be complaining about not being open to life.

 

[gardenswithkids]

What to do when there is not serious reason to avoid a pregnancy?

So my wife, says she is content and grateful for the two children we have (which of course I am too). We are well off financially, have a very good group of friends with shared faith and common interests and are both 37. Here is the issue… **we have been using NFP for birth control for several months. **…

Which direction are you going? You wrote you have been using NFP for several months, but what were you using prior to that? Your response to your wife would be different depending on if in the recent months you’ve started heading closer towards the Church teachings or away from them. If she’s coming off of using artificial contraception, please just pray and do not push this issue. If you’ve recently had a new baby, then perhaps her energy level for having another child justifies her use of NFP right now, even if she uses it imperfectly.

I didn’t check all your other posts before responding, but I thought it was worth mentioning that the response depends on circumstances. There may be other people with similar questions but who are in a different situation. The one thing that I can recommend regardless of the details is that you should pray for your wife. Otherwise, how I’d suggest to handle it depends on more than I know based on what you wrote here.

 

[godisgood77]

Thanks for all of the replies. I appreciate the conversation and dialogue… It’s obviously difficult to convey the whole story in these types of forums without writing a book… that seems to invite implications …

My wife and I have spent hours discussing this part of our married life and the choices we are making. I was indeed succinct in my first post… but the reason we are using NFP for birth control is because my wife does not want to have another child. She says she is a peace with and grateful for what we have (which of course I am too). We have never used birth control prior to the past seven months. Our children are ages 9 and 4. We continue to prayerfully discuss the subject.

We have discussed our reasons for using NFP at length on multiple occasions. Ultimately, the reason is that she believes that God is ok with her being content with 2 kids…her words not my interpretation.

I am very active in the process… in fact, I do most of the charting, but it is a arduous process when you are continually pulling the information.

Relative to some of the comments… How do I know she has lowered the act to a the equivalent of and lesser form of communication? We discussed it and that is what she said…

Would I be posting if the charting were not and issue? If my wife was more diligent and interested in the charting, it would still be an issue. I have sought council from some friends and our parish priest as well… as i mentioned I’m probably just venting. One reason I have read about that NFP fails is neglecting the process or being disinterested… shows a lack of commitment.

Sounds like she is less interested in sex than he is… Sure, I find no shame saying this. This is an important part of our marriage; I believe it is important to the health of any marriage… we are husband and wife, not brother and sister. Does anyone think there is something disordered with this point?

Maybe dating would help? We have made a point to get baby sitters, go to dinner or coffee or dancing or a long walk… have been doing so about every other week. it’s not for lack of trying.

Ultimately, as a 37 year old woman, I believe she is focused on the effect another child will have on her body…that is my thought… she has not said that.

Thanks again for any/all thoughts… appreciate the prayers as well.

Pax,
Dan

 

[PaulinVA]

I’m confused. What do you want, Godisgood77, more babies or more sex?

Lax charting with NFP will produce more babies. If you simply wanted more babies, you would be happy with this situation.

Using NFP means less sex.

I think that this whole thing is about less sex. I will tell you this, from my own experience and from reading this forum for years - in general, men want more sex and women don’t need as much. After children are born, women sometimes don’t really care about sex like they used to. They are pulled and prodded and hung on to by their kids and just see their husband as another kid that “wants a piece of them”.

So, this is about hurt feelings. It’s about self control. It’s about moving forward together.

 

[gardenswithkids]

Thanks for all of the replies. I appreciate the conversation and dialogue… It’s obviously difficult to convey the whole story in these types of forums without writing a book… that seems to invite implications …

My wife and I have spent hours discussing this part of our married life and the choices we are making. I was indeed succinct in my first post… but the reason we are using NFP for birth control is because my wife does not want to have another child. She says she is a peace with and grateful for what we have (which of course I am too). We have never used birth control prior to the past seven months. Our children are ages 9 and 4. We continue to prayerfully discuss the subject.

We have discussed our reasons for using NFP at length on multiple occasions. Ultimately, the reason is that she believes that God is ok with her being content with 2 kids…her words not my interpretation.

Ah. It makes more sense to me now. She’s 37, which in this society many would find justification for not having another baby. I’m not saying 37 is too old, (because I certainly don’t think that!) but the studies about increased risks of birth defects and miscarriages as a woman ages have many women in their late 30’s afraid. Also, without using any form of birth control, you only have 2 children (with a large age gap between them and a large age gap with no new babies in 4 years) so she may have concluded (correctly or not) that God only wants her to have two children since that’s all He’s given you both so far. She may even be just a little bit afraid that even if God only wants you to only have two, you both might risk having a child God doesn’t want you to have if you don’t use NFP.

Also, your younger child is 4. You’re done with diapers. The child is nearing kindergarten. You and perhaps your wife especially, are just getting to the point of re-discovering some of the independence you haven’t had for about, oh, 9 years. If another pregnancy were to occur, then she’d be starting back in the beginning with the diapers and middle of the night feedings. (Now, as a parent with both older and younger children, I can say that once the older ones are babysitting age, that changes the situation. Then you can do things people with older children often take for granted, like grocery shop alone.) Or, sadder still–if another pregnancy occurs, she may miscarry. If she’s had a miscarriage or is afraid of a miscarriage, that can be very difficult–and we don’t always know how to deal with those feelings or put those feeling to words. If another pregnancy should occur, she may both fear having another child and fear *not *having another child.

I am not saying that you have reason for using NFP–but I’m relating a bit to where your wife may be. My youngest is four. We have eight and probably won’t be having any more babies until the grandchildren start arriving. I’m reconciling myself to that. Aging is something that affects all of us. As women and our babies get older, we move into a new stage of life.

But 37 is still young! It’s young enough to be fertile! You and your wife have trusted God thus far with your fertility. I pray that she remember He can be trusted. Maybe that means NFP and maybe it doesn’t. If you are looking for a good book to read, I suggest a book that I found very helpful and beautiful called “Life Giving Love” by Kimberly Hahn. My prayers for the both of you!

 

[mommamaree]

I’m confused. What do you want, Godisgood77, more babies or more sex?

Lax charting with NFP will produce more babies. If you simply wanted more babies, you would be happy with this situation.

Using NFP means less sex.

I think that this whole thing is about less sex. I will tell you this, from my own experience and from reading this forum for years - in general, men want more sex and women don’t need as much. After children are born, women sometimes don’t really care about sex like they used to. They are pulled and prodded and hung on to by their kids and just see their husband as another kid that “wants a piece of them”.

So, this is about hurt feelings. It’s about self control. It’s about moving forward together.

To the highlighted blue section: Yes! This is a real problem in marriages, but it is a problem that can be addressed. A husband approaching his wife for sexual relations with the attitude of him wanting something from her, and a wife who constantly feels pressured to perform and to give and give and give, with nobody giving back to her…this is a recipe for disaster.
Here is an example of how a husband can fix this problem in his marriage, but it requires a complete interior conversion on this matter. He must realize that a man’s desire should lead him to give himself to his wife, not to take from her. He must start using “gifting” language, and avoid totally any hint of “taking” language.
“What can I do to help you finish up so that we can enjoy some downtime together watching TV before we need to get some sleep?”
“I love you and I want to feel close to you and show you how much I love you.”
“I know you are tired. Why don’t you just relax and let me make you feel good?”
“Do you want me to make love to you?”
“I know you have been giving to the kids all day long, now it is your turn. Let me take a turn giving to you.”

Notice the difference? Far too often, we hear about marital lovemaking as something that women owe their husbands, whether they want to or not, whether they enjoy it or not. This is not how it was meant to be. Women give with their bodies more than men can imagine. Between pregnancy and childbirth and nursing and caring for babies and raising little children, our bodies are constantly giving and giving and giving. If our husbands set themselves up as just another hand grabbing at us and never giving, they are placing themselves at the level of the children, and they are effectively eliminating any ability that they have to woo their wives. It is unfortunately very tempting for sexual desire to be seen as a need to take instead of what God intended, which is an opportunity to give. But men, being in such a perfect position to give, and with the ability to give to their wives in a way that no one else can, need to adopt God’s perspective on the proper response to sexual desire. Use the desire to compel you to give. Sometimes that giving will take the form of “not sexual relations”, because privacy and energy are lacking. But the more often a husband offers to give instead of asking to receive, the more and more his wife will begin to see that he DOES have something to give to her and it is something that will be fulfilling and satisfying and joyful.
This can all be practiced within the framework of NFP. The only problem with that is, if the husband becomes too effective at wooing his wife, because it is hardest for the wife to abstain during fertile times. But then again, NFP does have the benefit of giving the couple the opportunity on a month-by-month basis if they have serious reasons to avoid pregnancy. If their reasons to avoid are not serious enough to say no to the rejuvenating experience of lovemaking, then they have the ability to abandon the method.

 

[Xantippe]

godisgood77 said:

“I have sought council from some friends and our parish priest as well.”

Talking to friends in real life is not really kosher for this particular issue. I would reserve the subject for people who 1) you will never have to deal with in real life (like us) or 2) are bound to confidentiality (like the parish priest).

“Ultimately, as a 37 year old woman, I believe she is focused on the effect another child will have on her body…that is my thought… she has not said that.”

I suggest not engaging in mind reading.

That said, over 35 is medically Advanced Maternal Age. You might want to go in to your wife’s next OB/GYN visit and ask what all of the ramifications of that are.

Here’s a brief explanation of some of the risks of Advanced Maternal Age:

mayoclinic.org/healthy-living/getting-pregnant/in-depth/pregnancy/art-20045756?pg=1

I can certainly vouch for the increased risk of gestational diabetes–I had it for the first time ever when I was 37 and pregnant with my third. That pregnancy was a sort of guided tour of pregnancy complications (subchorionic hematoma, gestational diabetes and sciatica). In fact, I was pretty much immobilized for half a year and my husband and big kids had to do pretty much everything. If we had anything like that happen again, we’d have to hire a nanny to take care of me and the 1-year-old, which is ridiculous.

gardenswithkids said:

“She’s 37, which in this society many would find justification for not having another baby. I’m not saying 37 is too old, (because I certainly don’t think that!) but the studies about increased risks of birth defects and miscarriages, as a woman ages has many women in their late 30’s afraid.”

Exactly.

Here’s the chart I always pull out:

php.med.unsw.edu.au/embryology/index.php?title=Genetic_risk_maternal_age

If you look down the columns at your wife’s age, she has a 1 in 227 risk of a Down’s Syndrome baby today and a 1 in 127 risk of chromosomal abnormality and the risk is accelerating with every passing year, as is the risk of miscarriage. Here is the chart for maternal age and risk of miscarriage:

geneticsandfertility.com/maternal-age-reproduction/

If you look at that chart, you’ll see that your wife’s risk of miscarriage is starting to spike right now. By 40, there’s a 50% chance of miscarriage.

It’s not just a question of baby vs. no baby and “selfishness”, it’s also a question of (in the case of miscarriage or fatal chromosomal abnormalities) dealing with grief and (in the case of Down’s Syndrome and some other conditions) dealing with the possibility of lifelong responsibility for a seriously disabled child.

Unless you are both willing and happy to conceive a child that will suffer a great deal before dying in early infancy or spending the rest of your life changing diapers for an adult child who never quite gets the hang of the potty and will never be able to live independently, conservative NFP is the way to go. Your wife is probably thinking about this on some level. If you are both up for that, that’s perfectly OK, but if you aren’t up for it, then proceed accordingly.

Remember, the reason why you see relatively few Down’s Syndrome kids and adults is not that they are rare in nature. 90% of the ones detected prenatally are aborted. The risk of chromosomal abnormality has to weigh rather differently on us if we are pro-life.

I’m 38, with a 1-year-old who was born after a very depressing late miscarriage, and I totally understand the psychological value of feeling that you are going out on a win.

If we have more kids, I will try to be a good sport about it, but planning another pregnancy at this point sounds unwise, especially as we already have three.

 

[The_Bucket]

This can all be practiced within the framework of NFP. The only problem with that is, if the husband becomes too effective at wooing his wife, because it is hardest for the wife to abstain during fertile times. But then again, NFP does have the benefit of giving the couple the opportunity on a month-by-month basis if they have serious reasons to avoid pregnancy. If their reasons to avoid are not serious enough to say no to the rejuvenating experience of lovemaking, then they have the ability to abandon the method.

I don’t think that’s a major problem though. I mean, if he’s good during the fertile time and his wife is, well, a tad frustrated… she gets a better understanding of what he’s going through… PLUS she’s waiting until Peak plus three or four or whatever, just as much as he is!

I don’t mean it’s a “taste of her own medicine” or anything mean like that. I mean more in an empathy way; sees it from her husband’s perspective. Just like he needs to understand all the “giving of her body” his wife is doing with the kids and everything else.

Anyway, that’s a good problem to have in my opinion. Just a word to the wise that it’s usually a bit easier to do that whole “wooing” bit in the fertile period. Gotta step it up a notch after P+4 has passed…

 

[godisgood77]

I’m confused. What do you want, Godisgood77, more babies or more sex?

Both and more… I want to be closer to my spouse in every way.

 

[PaulinVA]

Both and more… I want to be closer to my spouse in every way.

Do you have to get what you want to feel closer to your wife? What about what* she* wants? Does sacrifice for your wife not make you feel closer to her?

 

[mommamaree]

I don’t think that’s a major problem though. I mean, if he’s good during the fertile time and his wife is, well, a tad frustrated… she gets a better understanding of what he’s going through… PLUS she’s waiting until Peak plus three or four or whatever, just as much as he is!

I don’t mean it’s a “taste of her own medicine” or anything mean like that. I mean more in an empathy way; sees it from her husband’s perspective. Just like he needs to understand all the “giving of her body” his wife is doing with the kids and everything else.

Anyway, that’s a good problem to have in my opinion. Just a word to the wise that it’s usually a bit easier to do that whole “wooing” bit in the fertile period. Gotta step it up a notch after P+4 has passed…

Unfortunately, that is exactly what your comments sound like. And it is precisely the kind of attitude a husband should avoid communicating to his wife. And it demonstrates how easy it is for men to assume that their wives are already lacking in empathy and have little to no idea what unexpressed sexual desire feels like. Many wives know exactly what sexual frustration feels like.
Look, if a husband wants to believe that his wife has too little empathy for his feelings, and that she would benefit from experiencing some sexual frustration, that is his prerogative. But as a wife, I have to say that if my husband were to approach marital intimacy from that perspective, I would be quite worried about being vulnerable with him. It would feel like he was keeping score, and not seeking opportunities to express love.

Edited to add: I think you might have missed the fact that entire paragraph of my post that you quoted was a bit tongue-in-cheek. I should have put a winkie smile with it. The only problem was no problem at all. After all, a husband who longs for more opportunities with his wife is not likely to be upset that his opportunities increase, is he? Unless, he prefers she “grow in empathy”…