NFP question

[Hoosier_Daddy]

The question we should ask ourselves not only in all moral situations but especially in marriage is how to be holy. THat is our job. THat is our command. That is our job to our spouse.

Too many times with NFP and in particular with all these threads we ask ourselves what is the MINIMUM I can do to remain in God’s friendship.

But what is the HOLY thing is what we should ask. If the holy thing is to not have children, if the holy thing is to frustrate your spouse. Then I guess that is ok. But I am not a minimalist when it comes to God.

 

[mommamaree]

The question we should ask ourselves not only in all moral situations but especially in marriage is how to be holy. THat is our job. THat is our command. That is our job to our spouse.

Too many times with NFP and in particular with all these threads we ask ourselves what is the MINIMUM I can do to remain in God’s friendship.

But what is the HOLY thing is what we should ask. If the holy thing is to not have children, if the holy thing is to frustrate your spouse. Then I guess that is ok. But I am not a minimalist when it comes to God.

We should never be so content with our personal level of piety that we allow ourselves to accuse others of being less pious than ourselves.
I have not seen anyone in this thread asking what is the minimum they can do and remain in friendship with God. I have seen people saying that it is indeed possible to be faced with a circumstance or outcome greater than they can bear, and then be able to use morally licit means to avoid the adversity. That is what prudence is for.
I fear that this thread is becoming uncharitable, as is the maternal age thread. I would like to remind everyone that as Catholics, we are to charitably assume the best of the motives of others, and even if correction is required, we are to do so charitably, without making assertions about the lesser spiritual state of others.

 

[7armyrugrats]

Yikes. The implications of this statement are not pleasant. If a person prudently decides to act in such a way as to avoid a possible outcome, because they discern the cost is too great for them personally, they are exercising virtue and self-mastery. How can we say that they are not accepting of God’s ways? We are to exercise responsible parenthood, and that includes deciding when NOT to conceive, if such a situation were to occur. We are encouraged to be generous in childbearing, but we are not obligated to continue procreating beyond what we see is our ability to handle. And those of us who have been successful in bearing more than the average number of children have no right to speculate on the spiritual state of others who use a morally licit form of birth regulation (a phrase actually used by the Church, lest anyone accuse me of a birth control mentality).

No one is expected to try to make as many babies as possible. No where did I say that. If that is what you think I implied you are wrong. Accepting God’s will is not to make babies on purpose, it is accepting that everything carries risks and if we are hit, it is simply because that is what God saw as best for us spiritually. I even said it has a lot more to do with a person’s emotional and psychological ability to cope than the risks involved.

 

[Xantippe]

mommamaree said:

“Yikes. The implications of this statement are not pleasant. If a person prudently decides to act in such a way as to avoid a possible outcome, because they discern the cost is too great for them personally, they are exercising virtue and self-mastery. How can we say that they are not accepting of God’s ways? We are to exercise responsible parenthood, and that includes deciding when NOT to conceive, if such a situation were to occur. We are encouraged to be generous in childbearing, but we are not obligated to continue procreating beyond what we see is our ability to handle. And those of us who have been successful in bearing more than the average number of children have no right to speculate on the spiritual state of others who use a morally licit form of birth regulation (a phrase actually used by the Church, lest anyone accuse me of a birth control mentality).”

Yes. There are opportunities for virtue both in having and caring for a bigger family and in restraining oneself from producing a bigger family.

To practice NFP is just as much to accept God’s ways. God’s way is that if a couple does not have sex when the wife is fertile, they won’t have a baby, and that if they do have sex when the wife is fertile, it’s quite likely they will have a baby. I totally accept that.

 

[7armyrugrats]

You know Hoosier Daddy, I am afraid I’m bowing out. It has become obvious that my writing ability is not at a high enough level to be understood and I seem to be offending people. It has not been my intention to say that a couple is always sinning by using NFP. Apparently what people are getting from this, that I’m holier than thou because I make as many babies as possible and no one can ever use NFP without being a horrible sinner. Nothing could ever be farther from the truth. I do not believe that way at all, but apparently I am doing a miserable job of expressing myself. Either that or people are purposely twisting my words to support their own agenda. I prayerfully hope it is that I stink at expressing myself instead.

I wish everyone a Happy Easter.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

You know Hoosier Daddy, I am afraid I’m bowing out. It has become obvious that my writing ability is not at a high enough level to be understood and I seem to be offending people. It has not been my intention to say that a couple is always sinning by using NFP. Apparently what people are getting from this, that I’m holier than thou because I make as many babies as possible and no one can ever use NFP without being a horrible sinner. Nothing could ever be farther from the truth. I do not believe that way at all, but apparently I am doing a miserable job of expressing myself. Either that or people are purposely twisting my words to support their own agenda. I prayerfully hope it is that I stink at expressing myself instead.

I wish everyone a Happy Easter.

Oh I hear ya. I am a rape supporter!

Oh well, it made for very interesting conversation with my wife when she got home and we went for a walk. Complete with my children asking “What is a marriage debt?”
It is frustrating when things turn like this. This thread in particular was quite civil for a while but of course if devolves into what every NFP thread devolves into.

Sad.

See you on another thread!

 

[Rau]

The question we should ask ourselves not only in all moral situations but especially in marriage is how to be holy. THat is our job. THat is our command. That is our job to our spouse.

Too many times with NFP and in particular with all these threads we ask ourselves what is the MINIMUM I can do to remain in God’s friendship.

But what is the HOLY thing is what we should ask. If the holy thing is to not have children, if the holy thing is to frustrate your spouse. Then I guess that is ok. But I am not a minimalist when it comes to God.

I agree with your first 2 paras. But, you’re losing me a bit by appearing to correlate (by implication at least, given your last para) holiness with number of children. For different people, good choices yield different answers! You might feel that a well-off, healthy couple stopping at 2 kids is not doing the right thing. Perhaps so. Or perhaps the way they believe they should go about parenting, eg. Personally supervising extra homework, arranging, delivering and personally overseeing copious extra-curricular activities, simply caps their capacity? Or perhaps they are simply not gifted with the same level of desire as some other parents who with 8 kids continue to yearn for more?

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I agree with your first 2 paras. But, you’re losing me a bit by appearing to correlate (by implication at least, given your last para) holiness with number of children. For different people, good choices yield different answers! You might feel that a well-off, healthy couple stopping at 2 kids is not doing the right thing. Perhaps so. Or perhaps the way they believe they should go about parenting, eg. Personally supervising extra homework, arranging, delivering and personally overseeing copious extra-curricular activities, simply caps their capacity? Or perhaps they are simply not gifted with the same level of desire as some other parents who with 8 kids continue to yearn for more?

I must be the greatest implyer of all time based on this thread. either that or people are overly sensitive, using rationalization for their own decisions and applying them universally or feeling guilty. Either way I’m done.

 

[Rau]

I feel compelled to make the observation that in my reading of this thread, offensive or unfair remarks are pretty thin on the ground.

7armyrugrats - I have no idea what upset you to the point of concluding you can’t express yourself. All looked fine to me.

Some folks did express some thoughts using a bit of hyperbole (such as Xantippe) - but she was plainly not suggesting that anyone else was suggesting an entitlement to rape. I was astounded that anyone looked right thru the hyperbole and arrived at such an interpretation.

But by and large, a completely civil thread, and I struggle to see any basis for anyone to feel attacked, inadequate or mistreated.

 

[lifeisbeautiful]

You know Hoosier Daddy, I am afraid I’m bowing out. It has become obvious that my writing ability is not at a high enough level to be understood and I seem to be offending people. It has not been my intention to say that a couple is always sinning by using NFP. Apparently what people are getting from this, that I’m holier than thou because I make as many babies as possible and no one can ever use NFP without being a horrible sinner. Nothing could ever be farther from the truth. I do not believe that way at all, but apparently I am doing a miserable job of expressing myself. Either that or people are purposely twisting my words to support their own agenda. I prayerfully hope it is that I stink at expressing myself instead.

I wish everyone a Happy Easter.

I just logged on and have not read all of the posts, but I did want to tell you that, while I do disagree with several posts I have seen (including interpretations of yours), I haven’t disagreed with any of yours… and I haven’t read anything in yours that would imply what you have said above. I think you express yourself well .

 

[Jaaanosik]

We should never be so content with our personal level of piety that we allow ourselves to accuse others of being less pious than ourselves.
I have not seen anyone in this thread asking what is the minimum they can do and remain in friendship with God. I have seen people saying that it is indeed possible to be faced with a circumstance or outcome greater than they can bear, and then be able to use morally licit means to avoid the adversity. That is what prudence is for.
I fear that this thread is becoming uncharitable, as is the maternal age thread. I would like to remind everyone that as Catholics, we are to charitably assume the best of the motives of others, and even if correction is required, we are to do so charitably, without making assertions about the lesser spiritual state of others.

One of the best posts in the thread!!!