NFP ruined marriage?

[sunny_days]

I could write a book here, but I will try to keep it as short as possible (more difficult than I thought ). Married since 2005. We met in a liturgy study group. He was just coming back to the church after not really practicing for a long time, and after getting out of a marriage of convenience (military benefits…). I was at the high point of my faith. We both were, really.

We studied Theology of the Body, although rather briefly, and I thought we were on the same page. Unfortunately, we messed around before we got married. We didn’t have intercourse, everything but I guess you could say. He took that to mean that I was on board with non-intercourse fulfillment. I wasn’t, but I didn’t say so, because I thought it was something we were just doing until we got married.

I got pregnant right away after our marriage. After the baby was born he pushed not having another because he was worried about my mental state (I suffer from chronic depression) and my health (overweight and high blood pressure.)

Years passed and he was not on board with trying for another baby. He often pushed me into non-intercourse relations and despite my reluctance and telling him I wasn’t okay with it and I felt it was morally wrong, repeatedly, it always came down to it’s not fair if we can’t have sex whenever we want. I went along and confessed it when it happened.

Disillusioned with our marriage and NFP, he threw himself into work and basically built a new “work life” where he ended up traveling and was gone most of the time. This travel for work was not a necessity - his career is such that he could work wherever he wants. There would be no problem finding a job in town; it would just not be his preference.

Things came to a breaking point 1.5 years ago and he cheated on me with a co-worker, because he wanted “to do something so bad he could never come back.” My daughter and I moved out. Their affair continued off and on for a few months. It seems to be over now. I have firmly stood my ground that we could work through this and reconcile.

Here’s where we are…he has refused counseling and Retrouvaille, as recently as yesterday. He is not willing to give up travel for work. He thinks whenever he is home for the weekend that we should be able to have sex and not worry about the consequences, no matter where we are in my cycle. However, he is not open to life. He communicated to me yesterday that “in your current shape and age” I don’t think a baby is a possibility. Note: I am 41. True, I am terribly out of shape right now. I had miscarriages in 2012 and 2013, so it is not out of the realm of possibility for me to have a baby if I were in better health and had some investigation done into the reasons for my previous pregnancy losses.

So, It has come down to this. He feels NFP destroyed our marriage. I feel like I’m being asked to choose between him and the church.

Thoughts, advice, anything, is requested and welcomed. Obviously, there are many other details and layers to our story. BTW, he doesn’t go to church anymore or really have anything to do with raising our daughter in the faith. He leaves all that to me.

 

[Xantippe]

I could write a book here, but I will try to keep it as short as possible (more difficult than I thought ). Married since 2005. We met in a liturgy study group. He was just coming back to the church after not really practicing for a long time, and after getting out of a marriage of convenience (military benefits…). I was at the high point of my faith. We both were, really.

We studied Theology of the Body, although rather briefly, and I thought we were on the same page. Unfortunately, we messed around before we got married. We didn’t have intercourse, everything but I guess you could say. He took that to mean that I was on board with non-intercourse fulfillment. I wasn’t, but I didn’t say so, because I thought it was something we were just doing until we got married.

I got pregnant right away after our marriage. After the baby was born he pushed not having another because he was worried about my mental state (I suffer from chronic depression) and my health (overweight and high blood pressure.)

Years passed and he was not on board with trying for another baby. He often pushed me into non-intercourse relations and despite my reluctance and telling him I wasn’t okay with it and I felt it was morally wrong, repeatedly, it always came down to it’s not fair if we can’t have sex whenever we want. I went along and confessed it when it happened.

Disillusioned with our marriage and NFP, he threw himself into work and basically built a new “work life” where he ended up traveling and was gone most of the time. This travel for work was not a necessity - his career is such that he could work wherever he wants. There would be no problem finding a job in town; it would just not be his preference.

Things came to a breaking point 1.5 years ago and he cheated on me with a co-worker, because he wanted “to do something so bad he could never come back.” My daughter and I moved out. Their affair continued off and on for a few months. It seems to be over now. I have firmly stood my ground that we could work through this and reconcile.

Here’s where we are…he has refused counseling and Retrouvaille, as recently as yesterday. He is not willing to give up travel for work. He thinks whenever he is home for the weekend that we should be able to have sex and not worry about the consequences, no matter where we are in my cycle. However, he is not open to life. He communicated to me yesterday that “in your current shape and age” I don’t think a baby is a possibility. Note: I am 41. True, I am terribly out of shape right now. I had miscarriages in 2012 and 2013, so it is not out of the realm of possibility for me to have a baby if I were in better health and had some investigation done into the reasons for my previous pregnancy losses.

So, It has come down to this. He feels NFP destroyed our marriage. I feel like I’m being asked to choose between him and the church.

Thoughts, advice, anything, is requested and welcomed. Obviously, there are many other details and layers to our story. BTW, he doesn’t go to church anymore or really have anything to do with raising our daughter in the faith. He leaves all that to me.

I think you know that NFP did not ruin your marriage.

1. Your husband has never demonstrated self-control in your relationship.
2. Even just from a secular point of view, it’s not kosher to push and push a spouse (or anybody else) to do sexual stuff that they are not comfortable with.
3. I don’t think you should be physically intimate with your husband unless you are doing counseling and Retrouvaille and you are sure that he is faithful to you.
4. Your husband is being stupid and selfish about the possibility of pregnancy. Sarah Palin had a baby at 46. Lots of CAFers have had babies at 46 and 48. You have to assume that you are fertile until a doctor tells you that you’re in menopause.
5. NFP didn’t make him be a bad father.
6. Lord only knows what he has been doing on the road all these years.

I don’t say this a lot, but I think you have a very good chance of obtaining an annulment. And even if there were no chance at all of obtaining an annulment, it would still be worthwhile to divorce. I do not say that lightly.

Best wishes!

 

[pensmama87]

Yikes.

I agree with Xantippe. The problem here isn’t NFP, it’s that your husband has some serious problems including that he thinks it’s appropriate to sexually assault his wife.

 

[sunny_days]

Xantippe, thank you! I agree with all of your statements. I may have chosen the name of my post poorly - I don’t think at all that NFP ruined our marriage. Selfishness did.

 

[TarkanAttila]

Sigh. That’s a sad, sad story. I’m sorry this has happened to you.

Benjamin Franklin once wrote “an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure”. I think your marriage demonstrates this perfectly, don’t you? I wonder what would have happened if you two had seriously investigated this issue before you got married?

Religion’s important stuff. Thank you for sharing your story; maybe someone who’s currently in a situation like the beginning of your married or pre-married life will read this and do something before it is too late.

I agree with Xantippe. Perhaps if your husband knew Catholic teaching - and if you meant to take it seriously, from the start - you would never have entered that marriage in the first place. Or, who knows? Maybe he would have grown a pair and acted like a man. Either way, it surely won’t happen now. :nope:

 

[Kelfa28]

I think you know that NFP did not ruin your marriage.

1. Your husband has never demonstrated self-control in your relationship.
2. Even just from a secular point of view, it’s not kosher to push and push a spouse (or anybody else) to do sexual stuff that they are not comfortable with.
3. I don’t think you should be physically intimate with your husband unless you are doing counseling and Retrouvaille and you are sure that he is faithful to you.
4. Your husband is being stupid and selfish about the possibility of pregnancy. Sarah Palin had a baby at 46. Lots of CAFers have had babies at 46 and 48. You have to assume that you are fertile until a doctor tells you that you’re in menopause.
5. NFP didn’t make him be a bad father.
6. Lord only knows what he has been doing on the road all these years.

I don’t say this a lot, but I think you have a very good chance of obtaining an annulment. And even if there were no chance at all of obtaining an annulment, it would still be worthwhile to divorce. I do not say that lightly.

Best wishes!

As much trouble as I have with NFP right now…I agree with everything Xantippe wrote.

His issues with sex, his adultery and his lack of commitment with the marriage have NOTHING to do with NFP.
He is using it as an excuse. He has no respect for you, as his wife. That is awful and I’m so sorry you are going through this.

You may be responsible for 50% of the marriage but he is responsible for 100% of his adultery. This is all on him and he needs to figure out where his demons are…he needs counseling. You both do.

 

[Arizona_Fat_Gir]

The problem with this sounds like it’s always about HIM.

That takes a lot of attention away from other things.

 

[jrobin]

I agree with Xantippe’s thoughts.

Your husband in a sense has a “right” to conjugal relations with his wife, but that “right” is conditional and not absolute. The right exists only within the bounds of marriage, and only on the basis of love. Love does not compel. It does not treat one’s spouse as a thing. Love does not degrade or deliberately injure. Love does not cheat on a spouse or daughter. It doesn’t sabotage. Love is open to life. Love respects the desires, health, and circumstances of the spouse.

I feel myself a hypocrite in writing these words, because I have too often fallen short of the mark in my own marriage. But with that confessed, I stand by them.

You have your own defects, I’m sure. But no, NFP -as hard is it can be to practice, because love is hard- did not ruin your marriage.

Praying for you and your family.

 

[Sunbreak]

No, NFP didn’t ruin your marriage. Your husband’s immaturity did.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I could write a book here, but I will try to keep it as short as possible (more difficult than I thought ). Married since 2005. We met in a liturgy study group. He was just coming back to the church after not really practicing for a long time, and after getting out of a marriage of convenience (military benefits…). I was at the high point of my faith. We both were, really.

We studied Theology of the Body, although rather briefly, and I thought we were on the same page. Unfortunately, we messed around before we got married. We didn’t have intercourse, everything but I guess you could say. He took that to mean that I was on board with non-intercourse fulfillment. I wasn’t, but I didn’t say so, because I thought it was something we were just doing until we got married.

I got pregnant right away after our marriage. After the baby was born he pushed not having another because he was worried about my mental state (I suffer from chronic depression) and my health (overweight and high blood pressure.)

Years passed and he was not on board with trying for another baby. He often pushed me into non-intercourse relations and despite my reluctance and telling him I wasn’t okay with it and I felt it was morally wrong, repeatedly, it always came down to it’s not fair if we can’t have sex whenever we want. I went along and confessed it when it happened.

Disillusioned with our marriage and NFP, he threw himself into work and basically built a new “work life” where he ended up traveling and was gone most of the time. This travel for work was not a necessity - his career is such that he could work wherever he wants. There would be no problem finding a job in town; it would just not be his preference.

Things came to a breaking point 1.5 years ago and he cheated on me with a co-worker, because he wanted “to do something so bad he could never come back.” My daughter and I moved out. Their affair continued off and on for a few months. It seems to be over now. I have firmly stood my ground that we could work through this and reconcile.

Here’s where we are…he has refused counseling and Retrouvaille, as recently as yesterday. He is not willing to give up travel for work. He thinks whenever he is home for the weekend that we should be able to have sex and not worry about the consequences, no matter where we are in my cycle. However, he is not open to life. He communicated to me yesterday that “in your current shape and age” I don’t think a baby is a possibility. Note: I am 41. True, I am terribly out of shape right now. I had miscarriages in 2012 and 2013, so it is not out of the realm of possibility for me to have a baby if I were in better health and had some investigation done into the reasons for my previous pregnancy losses.

So, It has come down to this. He feels NFP destroyed our marriage. I feel like I’m being asked to choose between him and the church.

Thoughts, advice, anything, is requested and welcomed. Obviously, there are many other details and layers to our story. BTW, he doesn’t go to church anymore or really have anything to do with raising our daughter in the faith. He leaves all that to me.

I say this as an outspoken critic of nfp. Nfp is not the issue at all in your post.

 

[twoangels]

Well, I think it is obvious that you feel neglected in your marriage by things completely independant of NFP. And we can all look at your side of the story and say “Yes, you are right. He’s treated you terribly, and blaming NFP for your marital problems rather than looking at the situation honestly.”

However, that doesn’t do anything. What are you going to do? Next time you have an argument with him tell him that he’s wrong because a bunch of online strangers agreed with you?

What I’d recommend is Gregory Popcak’s new book “When Divorce Isn’t an Option.” It’s got great things in it, including advise on figuring out what type of help you need. There are definitely situations where a weekend hearing good stuff and being away from the family (regardless of the quality of the information) doesn’t stick. Sometimes you need more constant help. And I would agree that even if he refuses to go with you to counseling, getting a good marriage friendly therapist to help things on your end will help.

So, start with the book and go from there.

 

[Xantippe]

Well, I think it is obvious that you feel neglected in your marriage by things completely independant of NFP. And we can all look at your side of the story and say “Yes, you are right. He’s treated you terribly, and blaming NFP for your marital problems rather than looking at the situation honestly.”

However, that doesn’t do anything. What are you going to do? Next time you have an argument with him tell him that he’s wrong because a bunch of online strangers agreed with you?

What I’d recommend is Gregory Popcak’s new book “When Divorce Isn’t an Option.” It’s got great things in it, including advise on figuring out what type of help you need. There are definitely situations where a weekend hearing good stuff and being away from the family (regardless of the quality of the information) doesn’t stick. Sometimes you need more constant help. And I would agree that even if he refuses to go with you to counseling, getting a good marriage friendly therapist to help things on your end will help.

So, start with the book and go from there.

Do you really want to encourage the OP to do that when there’s a good chance that her husband is seeing other women and has been doing so for some time? There’s one explanation that leaps to mind as to why he has been so eager to spend so much time out of town–he may either be spending a lot of time with prostitutes or doing Craigslist/Tindr flings. In that case, attempting to continue a normal marital relationship is playing Russian roulette with her health and life and the health and life of any baby she might conceive. Even “just” herpes can blind and kill newborns.

nytimes.com/health/guides/disease/herpes-simplex/possible-complications.html

 

[BobCatholic]

NFP didn’t ruin your marriage.

Your husband’s selfishness did.

More details are just commentary of the above fact.

 

[sunny_days]

twoangels,

No, I am not going to bring this up in an argument. If it wasn’t obvious from my post, my husband is very self-centered and a very dominant husband. I’m strong in my faith, but have not been a strong wife. I allowed him to push me down into almost nothingness. I’ve spent the time since he revealed his affair and told me he wanted a divorce trying to get myself back and become the person I used to be instead of a doormat. I’m not there yet.

I was not intending to blame our current marriage situation on him 100%. I have my faults, my sins that I battle daily. I don’t feel like I need to name them here because that is not what this is about. I have sought help, I have faced my issues. I have been under the care of a psychiatrist and a psychologist for a year and a half, trying to deal with these issues. Repeated attempts to get him to go Retrouvaille or counseling have all been refused. He has refused to read books on the subject. He has outright told me that he feels work is more of a “sure thing” than our marriage, so he can’t just drop everything to come back and try to fix things with me. He doesn’t want help. He doesn’t want to hear what someone else has to tell him. Incidentally, I have a call into Popcak’s group and will probably transition my therapy over to them shortly as right now I’m with a non-Catholic therapist.

What am I going to do? I wish someone could tell me what to do. I wish there was a book I could read that could tell me the answer. But I think the right answer is to continue doing what I have been…waiting, trusting God, and hoping that our marriage will be restored. I guess that’s what I’ll continue to do. My life feels like it is in limbo and my heart is crushed. However, right now I feel like if I refuse to go along with his belief that the church is wrong about NFP and openness to life, that he will probably divorce me. He thinks one day the Church will admit that the requirement to openness to life is outdated and they will change it. I don’t think so.

The reason I posted here is to see what people would say about my situation. I wanted to see if people would say I should go along with my husband’s desire to have sex whenever he wants to without being open to life. I wanted to see if anyone would say, as my husband does, that they are sure God doesn’t approve of “throwing away” our marriage because of this openness to life issue. Sadly, a couple of priests have told me that it’s okay if every marital act is not open to life, so my husband uses that as ammunition against me once in a while. I tried to go along with it, but I can’t go along with it in good conscience. I believe those priests were wrong.

I am not planning to go to a lawyer and start the divorce process. If we get divorced, it will be because he filed, not me. If it does come to that, I am almost positive that an annulment will be granted because my husband was married another time that he did not tell me about until after we were married. Heck, I don’t even know if my own marriage is valid because of that!

Despite all of this, I meant my wedding vows. I’m not giving up, but I’m also not going to put my husband before God.

 

[Kelfa28]

Well, I think it is obvious that you feel neglected in your marriage by things completely independant of NFP. And we can all look at your side of the story and say “Yes, you are right. He’s treated you terribly, and blaming NFP for your marital problems rather than looking at the situation honestly.”

However, that doesn’t do anything. What are you going to do? Next time you have an argument with him tell him that he’s wrong because a bunch of online strangers agreed with you?

What I’d recommend is Gregory Popcak’s new book “When Divorce Isn’t an Option.” It’s got great things in it, including advise on figuring out what type of help you need. There are definitely situations where a weekend hearing good stuff and being away from the family (regardless of the quality of the information) doesn’t stick. Sometimes you need more constant help. And I would agree that even if he refuses to go with you to counseling, getting a good marriage friendly therapist to help things on your end will help.

So, start with the book and go from there.

The problems the OP has listed go far, far beyond arguments and being away from one’s family.

He is putting her in real danger…physically, emotionally, spiritually and financially. Her health is as stake, as well as the health of any unborn children they could potentially have.
She knows he has committed adultery in the past and his being out of town for long stretches of time and his selfish attitude toward sex speaks volumes about what his activities, while out of town, could be. Whether they are or they aren’t it’s too dangerous for her to make an attempt at marital relations in any form.

At the very least, she needs to find a good counselor for herself, and speak to a priest about the possibility of divorce and annulment to protect herself, her children and her finances.

 

[sunny_days]

Xantippe, thank you. I understand your concerns and they concern me also. I was recently tested for STDs and they all came back negative, praise be to God.

 

[BobCatholic]

If it wasn’t obvious from my post, my husband is very self-centered and a very dominant husband.

What am I going to do? I wish someone could tell me what to do.

Yes, it was very obvious from your post

The answer is clear: Force your husband,to stop being self-centered.

Of course, I"m using hyperbole to make a point.

In reality, you have no control over that. He’s going to do what he’s going to do. He is willing to destroy all is good because the mirror (his ego) runs his life. Selfishness kills marriages dead. All it takes is one to do it. He has chosen to be the one to do it.

Do you think that being the holiest person on the planet will make him say “Oh! I was wrong the whole time, I repent! I’ll be a good husband from now on!” Maybe if you try levitating while praying the Rosary in Aramaic. That’ll do it. Right? (again, hyperbole!)

I recall Christ was the holiest person on the planet at the time, what happened to him? He never got betrayed and suffered?

Don’t place unrealistic expectations on yourself. You could do everything right and he’ll still file the divorce paperwork.

All you can do is pray for him and try your best to be a good example. Anything else is up to God.

And don’t do the levitating while praying, it hurts when you bump your head on the ceiling.

 

[Isabel_08]

sunny, I am praying for you right now. As everyone already said, your husband has some serious issues. Sadly, his ideas and attitude about sex sound a lot like my own husband’s. Actually, the description fits almost to a t…minus the cheating, which I’m terrified of. :’(

You said he wants to have sex whenever the urge hits without having to be open to life and blames NFP (and you) for “not allowing it.” Well, being as cafeteria-Catholicy as he is, has he ever taken it upon himself to use a condom to “save” the marriage/sex, or does he expect that you take on the burden of the sin? From everything so far, I’m guessing no to taking on the burden himself. Not that I actually advocate it, but when I’ve brought up the “suggestion” to hubby, he acts like it’s some affront to his sexuality because…well, selfishness. It’s up to you whether or not you’ll have sex with him during this time. No, you should not give in and contracept for him.

It’s good that you see how all these problems factor in from the way you’ve been worn down over the years to how he doesn’t want to hear it, admit he’s got a problem (with himself), and get help. I think you are doing everything in your power to do things right. You are very strong, even if you’ve been doormatted. But you can’t change him. Just like anything else, say alcohol or drug addiction, the first step to recovery is acknowledging you (in this case, your husband) have a problem. You may very well lead by example and sometimes that acts as a catalyst for the other person, who loses a person to help them keep up their little game, but it’s really up to them.

Last thing, while I totally understand your desire not to divorce, because you have been fighting to stay out of sin, why not make sure that you’re in a valid marriage to begin with? To put it bluntly (and I’m sorry for this!) there is no marriage to save if it doesn’t qualify as a valid marriage.

Will be praying furiously for you and your family, Sunny. May God grant you the strength and wisdom to do what’s right and necessary, and may He open your husband’s eyes before it’s too late!!

 

[robertmidwest]

So, It has come down to this. He feels NFP destroyed our marriage. I feel like I’m being asked to choose between him and the church.

He is not wanting out because of NFP. This is an excuse for both him and you. I am disturbed by our comment that he was recently out of a “marriage of convenience” but you believe it was high point in his life. There was something flawed in your (and his) thinking from the very beginning of the marriage.

I will give full disclosure here: I do not believe NPF is healthy for marriages, I don’t think it works, and it is a sin to teach people that it is an effective. You are are using NFP (and the church) to cover for other serious issues.

 

[Xantippe]

twoangels,

No, I am not going to bring this up in an argument. If it wasn’t obvious from my post, my husband is very self-centered and a very dominant husband. I’m strong in my faith, but have not been a strong wife. I allowed him to push me down into almost nothingness. I’ve spent the time since he revealed his affair and told me he wanted a divorce trying to get myself back and become the person I used to be instead of a doormat. I’m not there yet.

I was not intending to blame our current marriage situation on him 100%. I have my faults, my sins that I battle daily. I don’t feel like I need to name them here because that is not what this is about. I have sought help, I have faced my issues. I have been under the care of a psychiatrist and a psychologist for a year and a half, trying to deal with these issues. Repeated attempts to get him to go Retrouvaille or counseling have all been refused. He has refused to read books on the subject. He has outright told me that he feels work is more of a “sure thing” than our marriage, so he can’t just drop everything to come back and try to fix things with me. He doesn’t want help. He doesn’t want to hear what someone else has to tell him. Incidentally, I have a call into Popcak’s group and will probably transition my therapy over to them shortly as right now I’m with a non-Catholic therapist.

What am I going to do? I wish someone could tell me what to do. I wish there was a book I could read that could tell me the answer. But I think the right answer is to continue doing what I have been…waiting, trusting God, and hoping that our marriage will be restored. I guess that’s what I’ll continue to do. My life feels like it is in limbo and my heart is crushed. However, right now I feel like if I refuse to go along with his belief that the church is wrong about NFP and openness to life, that he will probably divorce me. He thinks one day the Church will admit that the requirement to openness to life is outdated and they will change it. I don’t think so.

The reason I posted here is to see what people would say about my situation. I wanted to see if people would say I should go along with my husband’s desire to have sex whenever he wants to without being open to life. I wanted to see if anyone would say, as my husband does, that they are sure God doesn’t approve of “throwing away” our marriage because of this openness to life issue. Sadly, a couple of priests have told me that it’s okay if every marital act is not open to life, so my husband uses that as ammunition against me once in a while. I tried to go along with it, but I can’t go along with it in good conscience. I believe those priests were wrong.

I am not planning to go to a lawyer and start the divorce process. If we get divorced, it will be because he filed, not me. If it does come to that, I am almost positive that an annulment will be granted because my husband was married another time that he did not tell me about until after we were married. Heck, I don’t even know if my own marriage is valid because of that!

Despite all of this, I meant my wedding vows. I’m not giving up, but I’m also not going to put my husband before God.

You are not throwing away your marriage. Your husband is, by refusing counseling, refusing to read marriage books, by engaging in workaholism, having an affair, choosing to work out of town when he doesn’t need to, pressing you to engage in immoral sexual acts, insisting on sex during fertile times when your health is bad, and threatening you with divorce. All of those things are things he is choosing to do.

And come to think of it, if you look at an abuse checklist (google for one), you will find that many of those behaviors are on the list.

You are quite right about the previous marriage that he did not mention to you.

How about a legal separation?

Best wishes!