NFP ruined marriage?

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It’s good that you see how all these problems factor in from the way you’ve been worn down over the years to how he doesn’t want to hear it, admit he’s got a problem (with himself), and get help. I think you are doing everything in your power to do things right. You are very strong, even if you’ve been doormatted. But you can’t change him. 😦 Just like anything else, say alcohol or drug addiction, the first step to recovery is acknowledging you (in this case, your husband) have a problem. You may very well lead by example and sometimes that acts as a catalyst for the other person, who loses a person to help them keep up their little game, but it’s really up to them.

Last thing, while I totally understand your desire not to divorce, because you have been fighting to stay out of sin, why not make sure that you’re in a valid marriage to begin with? To put it bluntly (and I’m sorry for this!) there is no marriage to save if it doesn’t qualify as a valid marriage.
Right.
 
He is not wanting out because of NFP. This is an excuse for both him and you. I am disturbed by our comment that he was recently out of a “marriage of convenience” but you believe it was high point in his life. There was something flawed in your (and his) thinking from the very beginning of the marriage.

I will give full disclosure here: I do not believe NPF is healthy for marriages, I don’t think it works, and it is a sin to teach people that it is an effective. You are are using NFP (and the church) to cover for other serious issues.
That’s kind of harsh, don’t you think?

The OP could be having as much sex in as many perverted ways as her husband wanted, and it wouldn’t make him any less abusive than he is.

Oh, here’s the abuse checklist:

abuse-against-women.com/abuse_checklist.html

There’s a whole section on sexual abuse.
 
Not to monopolize the thread, but I think the OP should read Lundy Bancroft’s “Why Does He Do That?: Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men.”

Don’t leave it lying around the house.

Best wishes!
 
, I have a call into Popcak’s group and will probably transition my therapy over to them shortly as right now I’m with a non-Catholic therapist
Excellent! They’re a great group. My husband and I have been having counseling through them for over a year now. I wish we had gone sooner. It’s been excellent.
 
That’s kind of harsh, don’t you think?
No.

Look at the opening paragraph of the post. She consented to fooling around before marriage, but now is concerned about upholding church teaching to the letter of the law?

What was his marriage of convenience? A fake marraige to get higher pay in the military? Sounds like stealing to me. That wasn’t a red flag? She doesn’t seem to concerned about that, but theology of the body and NFP are not important?

Things don’t add up. I think she is just as immature as he is and feels comfortable playing a victime role in the NFP and church genre.
 
No.

Look at the opening paragraph of the post. She consented to fooling around before marriage, but now is concerned about upholding church teaching to the letter of the law?

What was his marriage of convenience? A fake marraige to get higher pay in the military? Sounds like stealing to me. That wasn’t a red flag? She doesn’t seem to concerned about that, but theology of the body and NFP are not important?

**She said in a later post that he didn’t tell her about the previous marriage before they got married.

That’s cause for an annulment, right there.
**

Things don’t add up. I think she is just as immature as he is and feels comfortable playing a victime role in the NFP and church genre.
He’s the one refusing to go to marriage counseling.

Xantippe’s rule of thumb: 90% of the time, the spouse refusing to go to marriage counseling is the problem.
 
Yes, robertmidwest, I consented to fooling around before marriage and now want to uphold church teaching to the letter of the law. Isn’t that the usual course of events when you have been sinful and make a determined effort to change your ways and follow the path of Jesus? In my mind, getting pregnant outside of wedlock was not an option, but, cliche as it sounds, we were in love and couldn’t wait to be together in that way. Yes, there was some component of my being afraid of losing him if I didn’t go along with it. That was wrong and weak of me. You can’t imagine how much I regret it now.

You are also correct that there were red flags. There were many red flags I can see clearly now. There were some red flags I recognized then and chose to ignore. I cannot go back and change my naivete and mistakes from 10 years ago, but I can own my situation now and try to do the right thing. That is what I am trying to do.

I’ll show you how things add up…I had never been in love before. I had never been in a long-term relationship before. We met in a liturgy study group and built our relationship around standing for the pro-life movement. He had recently gotten out of a marriage ofconvenience whose purpose was, indeed, to help him get more money. He seemed contrite and was recommitting himself to the faith. He was full of zeal for the faith and so was I. I felt God’s blessing was upon our relationship and marriage. He sought an annulment for the marriage of convenience and it was granted. A while after we were married, he told me of yet ANOTHER marriage, a courthouse marriage. Of course I would have insisted that he have that marriage annulled, also. By the time he did tell me about it, we were married and had a child, so I just put it aside because I still believed in our marriage and what could I do about it at that point? I was disappointed and angry, but I let it go and forgave him.

So, yes, I agree with you, actually. I messed up. My marriage to him was a mistake. But, from it came a beautiful child and she deserves to have the best chance in life to see examples of lasting marriages and living examples of forgiveness.

Besides calling me out on my previous mistakes and calling me immature, do you have any advice about how to address my current situation? I know that NFP is not the root of our marriage problems, but since that is what my husband has chosen to put most of the FOCUS on, that’s what I have to deal with. Since you think I’m playing a victim role in the NFP and church genre, what would you have me do? Go along with my husband’s wishes? I’m not sure exactly what you’re getting at.
 
Yes, robertmidwest, I consented to fooling around before marriage and now want to uphold church teaching to the letter of the law. Isn’t that the usual course of events when you have been sinful and make a determined effort to change your ways and follow the path of Jesus? In my mind, getting pregnant outside of wedlock was not an option, but, cliche as it sounds, we were in love and couldn’t wait to be together in that way. Yes, there was some component of my being afraid of losing him if I didn’t go along with it. That was wrong and weak of me. You can’t imagine how much I regret it now.

You are also correct that there were red flags. There were many red flags I can see clearly now. There were some red flags I recognized then and chose to ignore. I cannot go back and change my naivete and mistakes from 10 years ago, but I can own my situation now and try to do the right thing. That is what I am trying to do.

I’ll show you how things add up…I had never been in love before. I had never been in a long-term relationship before. We met in a liturgy study group and built our relationship around standing for the pro-life movement. He had recently gotten out of a marriage ofconvenience whose purpose was, indeed, to help him get more money. He seemed contrite and was recommitting himself to the faith. He was full of zeal for the faith and so was I. I felt God’s blessing was upon our relationship and marriage. He sought an annulment for the marriage of convenience and it was granted. A while after we were married, he told me of yet ANOTHER marriage, a courthouse marriage. Of course I would have insisted that he have that marriage annulled, also. By the time he did tell me about it, we were married and had a child, so I just put it aside because I still believed in our marriage and what could I do about it at that point? I was disappointed and angry, but I let it go and forgave him.

So, yes, I agree with you, actually. I messed up. My marriage to him was a mistake. But, from it came a beautiful child and she deserves to have the best chance in life to see examples of lasting marriages and living examples of forgiveness.

Besides calling me out on my previous mistakes and calling me immature, do you have any advice about how to address my current situation? I know that NFP is not the root of our marriage problems, but since that is what my husband has chosen to put most of the FOCUS on, that’s what I have to deal with. Since you think I’m playing a victim role in the NFP and church genre, what would you have me do? Go along with my husband’s wishes? I’m not sure exactly what you’re getting at.
Yeah.

However, I have to add that you are not going to succeed in having a lasting, forgiving marriage if 1) your marriage is not valid anyway because your husband is deemed married to somebody else and 2) your husband does not choose to have a lasting, forgiving marriage.
 
You are right, Xantippe and Isabel_08. How does one go about finding out if their marriage is valid? You obviously can’t file for an annulment while you are married, so…I’m not sure how it is done. Please advise.

I brought this information about the courthouse wedding up to my pastor and he said he believes our marriage is valid anyway. Another of our parish priests said he wasn’t so sure.

Also, I think I chose the title of my post poorly and led some to believe that I think NFP ruined my marriage, which is not the case at all. Is there any way to edit the title on the original post?
 
You are right, Xantippe and Isabel_08. How does one go about finding out if their marriage is valid? You obviously can’t file for an annulment while you are married, so…I’m not sure how it is done. Please advise.

I brought this information about the courthouse wedding up to my pastor and he said he believes our marriage is valid anyway. Another of our parish priests said he wasn’t so sure.

Also, I think I chose the title of my post poorly and led some to believe that I think NFP ruined my marriage, which is not the case at all. Is there any way to edit the title on the original post?
Civil marriages don’t need to be annulled.

The fact that he lied to you about a previous marriage is pretty good grounds for annulment.

I am 99.99% sure of both those statements.

How come this third marriage didn’t come out until post number 28 in the thread? Something doesn’t add up.
 
Civil marriages don’t need to be annulled.

The fact that he lied to you about a previous marriage is pretty good grounds for annulment.

I am 99.99% sure of both those statements.

How come this third marriage didn’t come out until post number 28 in the thread? Something doesn’t add up.
I looked at he FAQ section, under annulments, and it looks like I was wrong. The courthouse marriage needs an annulment too.
 
robertmidwest,

I didn’t bring up this civil marriage in the original post because I don’t feel it had anything to do with the issue at hand. My husband told me years ago about this marriage (but not until after we were married).

At the time, I didn’t foresee our marriage breaking down in a few years to the point of threats of divorce, him committing adultery, etc. I was committed to the vows I made (and I still am), so I let it go. I wasn’t thinking, “oh good, here’s my out of this terrible marriage.” It was still pretty early in my marriage and things weren’t all that bad.

I get the sense you think I am hiding something or making this up as I go along. I assure you I am not. No doubt, if my husband were posting here you would get a completely different take on events. But, I am posting what I know to be true.

I am just trying to figure out what to do in a terrible situation. I am trying to do the best for my daughter. I am trying to make sure I don’t put my marriage ahead of God as I did for years. I didn’t come here expecting to defend myself or rehash ALL the details of how I got here. Trust me, I have beat myself up enough over the years for not paying attention to things more closely before getting married.

I know that civil marriages don’t have to be annulled. But, the Church would have required a review of the courthouse marriage and no doubt would have said it wasn’t a valid marriage due to lack of form. However, because he didn’t tell me about this courthouse wedding, it WASN’T investigated by the Church. So what a couple of people are saying here is that MY marriage may not be valid in the eyes of the Church because my husband wasn’t free to marry without having that other marriage reviewed. I am married, not divorced, so I can’t go through the annulment process to determine if my marriage is valid.
 
Okay, yeah, I’m not sure of the exact terminology. I don’t think a civil marriage is annulled, but is deemed invalid due to “lack of form” or something. But, I think most people use the terms interchangeably. I’m not positive about this though.
 
I am married, not divorced, so I can’t go through the annulment process to determine if my marriage is valid.
The fact that you are married should not prevent you from finding out information about whether a marriage is valid or not.

Contact your diocese office and ask for help.
 
The fact that you are married should not prevent you from finding out information about whether a marriage is valid or not.

Contact your diocese office and ask for help.
Right! I scanned a few annulment Q&As and none of them have said that you have to be divorced by the civil courts to get a decree of nullity from the Church. I always thought the Church’s recognition could operate separately from the civil recognition in most cases.

Here’s a link with a few basics. canonlawprofessionals.com/annulmentquestions.html I don’t know much more about specifics of the process (sorry).
 
You are right, Xantippe and Isabel_08. How does one go about finding out if their marriage is valid? You obviously can’t file for an annulment while you are married, so…I’m not sure how it is done. Please advise.

I brought this information about the courthouse wedding up to my pastor and he said he believes our marriage is valid anyway. Another of our parish priests said he wasn’t so sure.

Also, I think I chose the title of my post poorly and led some to believe that I think NFP ruined my marriage, which is not the case at all. Is there any way to edit the title on the original post?
There is no way to tell whether an annullment will be granted or not. You can tell whether you have an argument for a case toward it. Ultimately, in an annullment you are refuting the official witnesses of matrimonial consent. The purpose of the witnesses is to give testimony to the validity of the marriage. It is a priest’s moral obligation to not agree with allow a couple to go through with a wedding if he sees impediments.

That said, many priests are doormats and just want to help couples go through the process to get married. They don’t want to turn away potential parishioners who get offended by this approach. And witnesses often don’t view their role in this light. Culturally, it is considered rude to not attend someone’s wedding or agree to have the honor of being a best man or maid of honor. We don’t feel it is polite to take the roles or the view the Church takes on the process of getting married. And as such, it creates a tension point. How do you be pastorial to people in a culture that does not understand the purpose of the priest and the witnesses in the marriage and where it is so easy to sound offensive when trying to explain it.

Moreover, the marriage tribunal is not infallible. How corrupt or incorrupt the tribunals are is a matter of opinion, but Catholics can rest assured that in going through the process that they did all they could to morally discern their situation.

Dr. Popcak offered a suggestion last year that the tribunals take a more pastoral approach by requiring couples to submit their case to the tribunal BEFORE divorce and then explain their ruling if they judge it to be valid. But this does not seem to be what the bishops have been discussing and largely the argument is between those who want to uphold Christ’s teachings by keeping things as they are and those who want to dismantle things with silly statements of “We just should forgive the divorce and allow the remarriage.” The divorce is not the moral issue. The remarriage is. If you have a valid marriage, the divorce occurs long after a series of either one or both spouses neglecting their marital vows. The divorce is a mere formality. And largely marriages break apart because we are sinners. We do not know how to love each other. It’s very difficult to develop the virtues needed to sustain a happy marriage and you both need to be committing to persevering through the trials there are in loving each other.

Like I said before, I definitely think it’s great your going with Dr. Popcak’s team of counselors. My husband and I have been getting counseling through them for over a year. The book I recommended was one they recommended to us. It really reaffirms what we’re learning.

There definitely have been times where I’ve felt totally lost and helpless with our situation. And I’ve thought up things that might work for an annullment. What I can’t argue though is that we didn’t understand marriage or take our vows seriously. And the work we’ve done has really been a great moral guide. I really have a lot of restored faith and hope in our marriage. And mind you, outside of counseling, I’ve felt like everyone feels I’m crazy for persevering in it. I read so many sites that just encouraged me to give up. Even my Mom makes comments that she would have left by now. Which is really odd to me because she’s always been so anti-divorce.

I do think they’ll help you make a decision with a good conscience.
 
Right! I scanned a few annulment Q&As and none of them have said that you have to be divorced by the civil courts to get a decree of nullity from the Church. I always thought the Church’s recognition could operate separately from the civil recognition in most cases.

Here’s a link with a few basics. canonlawprofessionals.com/annulmentquestions.html I don’t know much more about specifics of the process (sorry).
This was brought up by me on a thread a while ago, You do indeed need to get divorced to then have an investigation into nullity. I think it is crazy the Church has given so much power to the civil governments. And it is kind of coming around to bite the Church now. A sacrament should never be tied in any way to a government filing or ruling.

Here is the thread
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=934241
 
This was brought up by me on a thread a while ago, You do indeed need to get divorced to then have an investigation into nullity. I think it is crazy the Church has given so much power to the civil governments. And it is kind of coming around to bite the Church now. A sacrament should never be tied in any way to a government filing or ruling.

Here is the thread
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=934241
Wow, did not know that. Thanks for the correction!
 
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