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robertmidwest
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Did your husband withhold information from the tribunal for the marriage that was annulled?
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Xantippe
Guest
Now that you mention it, that’s a really good question.
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sunny_days
Guest
To my knowledge, he did not submit anything about his first marriage to the diocese. So, he probably outright lied on the paperwork if he signed his name to the document but didn’t list that other marriage. Also, as far as I know he DID provide the necessary information, gathered witnesses, etc for the documentation of the second marriage.
This will probably come as no surprise, but he only obtained the decree of nullity (or whatever it is called in this case) because I insisted.
At any rate, I would not have proceeded with our marriage had I known about this other one. I can’t say if would have moved forward if he agreed to get that one reviewed/declared invalid also. Who knows - maybe my eyes would have been opened if I had known.
As I recall in our marriage preparation with the priest, he never asked about the marriage of convenience that was reviewed by the diocese. I don’t remember him ever bringing it up as a potential problem or asking either of us anything about it, really.
What a mess…
This will probably come as no surprise, but he only obtained the decree of nullity (or whatever it is called in this case) because I insisted.
At any rate, I would not have proceeded with our marriage had I known about this other one. I can’t say if would have moved forward if he agreed to get that one reviewed/declared invalid also. Who knows - maybe my eyes would have been opened if I had known.
As I recall in our marriage preparation with the priest, he never asked about the marriage of convenience that was reviewed by the diocese. I don’t remember him ever bringing it up as a potential problem or asking either of us anything about it, really.
What a mess…
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robertmidwest
Guest
He has been dishonest from the beginning. He has never had any intention of being truthful. He is not going to suddenly start following rules now.
Then why stay with him now?
It’s not the marriage prep guys fault. Just like it is not NFP’s fault. Don’t try to shift the blame again.As I recall in our marriage preparation with the priest, he never asked about the marriage of convenience that was reviewed by the diocese. I don’t remember him ever bringing it up as a potential problem or asking either of us anything about it, really.
What a mess…
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Marysann
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This has been a long thread, and I may be confused, but here is what I think is the issue. To me it is not whether your husband had an annullment or not, but that he concealed his previous marriage from you. That was information that you needed to make an informed decision about marrying him. This sounds like fraud to me, and this may be grounds for annullment. Please see your pastor or call the diocesan tribunal. No one should have to live like you are.
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masondoggy
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I agree. Sounds like a classic case of fraud to me. Doesn’t sound like there is a marriage TO SAVE in the eyes of God here. He wasn’t free to marry and he lied about it.
What a mess is right.
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masondoggy
Guest
Fwiw, NFP can ruin a marriage. But it ruins a marriage because one or both parties still operates in the contraceptive mindset. So it’s not the NFP that ruined the marriage, it was the contraceptive mindset that has been destroying countless marriages for decades. It all comes down to respect. Respect for the other spouse. And when it’s lacking, a marriage is doomed.
And it sounds to me like that is what is going on here…and it has nothing to do with NFP.
And it sounds to me like that is what is going on here…and it has nothing to do with NFP.
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robertmidwest
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I have been holding off on saying this,but not that someone else has let the cat out of the bag…
There is nothing to save here. From the very beginning it was flawed.
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His_helpmeet
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I believe that the Church requires a divorce certificate as a proof that reconciliation is not possible. It’s the easiest way to prove that.
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St_Pancake
Guest
Unfortunately, I don’t have the time to read all of the responses.I could write a book here, but I will try to keep it as short as possible (more difficult than I thought). Married since 2005. We met in a liturgy study group. He was just coming back to the church after not really practicing for a long time, and after getting out of a marriage of convenience (military benefits…). I was at the high point of my faith. We both were, really.
We studied Theology of the Body, although rather briefly, and I thought we were on the same page. Unfortunately, we messed around before we got married. We didn’t have intercourse, everything but I guess you could say. He took that to mean that I was on board with non-intercourse fulfillment. I wasn’t, but I didn’t say so, because I thought it was something we were just doing until we got married.
I got pregnant right away after our marriage. After the baby was born he pushed not having another because he was worried about my mental state (I suffer from chronic depression) and my health (overweight and high blood pressure.)
Years passed and he was not on board with trying for another baby. He often pushed me into non-intercourse relations and despite my reluctance and telling him I wasn’t okay with it and I felt it was morally wrong, repeatedly, it always came down to it’s not fair if we can’t have sex whenever we want. I went along and confessed it when it happened.
Disillusioned with our marriage and NFP, he threw himself into work and basically built a new “work life” where he ended up traveling and was gone most of the time. This travel for work was not a necessity - his career is such that he could work wherever he wants. There would be no problem finding a job in town; it would just not be his preference.
Things came to a breaking point 1.5 years ago and he cheated on me with a co-worker, because he wanted “to do something so bad he could never come back.” My daughter and I moved out. Their affair continued off and on for a few months. It seems to be over now. I have firmly stood my ground that we could work through this and reconcile.
Here’s where we are…he has refused counseling and Retrouvaille, as recently as yesterday. He is not willing to give up travel for work. He thinks whenever he is home for the weekend that we should be able to have sex and not worry about the consequences, no matter where we are in my cycle. However, he is not open to life. He communicated to me yesterday that “in your current shape and age” I don’t think a baby is a possibility. Note: I am 41. True, I am terribly out of shape right now. I had miscarriages in 2012 and 2013, so it is not out of the realm of possibility for me to have a baby if I were in better health and had some investigation done into the reasons for my previous pregnancy losses.
So, It has come down to this. He feels NFP destroyed our marriage. I feel like I’m being asked to choose between him and the church.
Thoughts, advice, anything, is requested and welcomed. Obviously, there are many other details and layers to our story. BTW, he doesn’t go to church anymore or really have anything to do with raising our daughter in the faith. He leaves all that to me.
To those counseling you to divorce, perhaps they should state their qualifications to state such.
I serve a God that is in the redemption business and nothing is impossible.
I applaud your dedication to stick with it. If I was in your shoes, I hope I would be fighting the same fight you are. At this point, your best course of action is prayer and I plan to join you in that.
I converted to Catholicism last year. Therefore, most of my married sexuality was as a protestant. Some of my Catholic friends describe NFP as a chore. I couldn’t tell you. There are no eggs left within my wife so it isn’t a chore I will ever know. I imagine it is difficult.
We’re only hearing one side of this and that is fine. Just keep in mind that some of us might feel the story might not be balanced by hearing one side. As it is now, he sounds like quite the deplorable character which there must be more to him than that or you probably wouldn’t have married him in the first place.
The Church has very strict teachings regarding birth control and in a near perfect world, most Catholics would follow these teachings to the letter. In reality though, most Catholics pick and choose different teachings to follow or not follow. All of that to say that your husband has views shared by most protestants and possibly a majority of Catholics.
While having said the above, it doesn’t excuse his behavior. He was wrong and hopefully he can come to terms with that and start the process of healing his marriage.
My best friends at the Catholic Church are a couple that have been married for 23 years. For 15 of those years, the male of the couple was addicted to alcohol, porn and was a serial cheater. In fact, he had women all over the country that he would cheat with when he traveled. She stuck with him and prayed for him. He hasn’t done such in 8 years. He spends a good amount of his time telling others about his life in the hope that they won’t do the same.
That wasn’t easy for her, and it will not be for you either. In fact, it might just fail. If your prayer and persistence pays off, you will be rewarded for it.
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sunny_days
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St Pancake, thank you for your response. That is why I haven’t filed for divorce…because I also serve God who is in the redemption business and I also know nothing is impossible.
The man I married, by all appearances, was faithful to the church. He was on fire for the faith and the pro life movement. He attended Mass faithfully, stood in front of an abortion clinic every weekend. He came to be the man he is now through a slow fade. When I think about giving up, I always end up back at this - he was that man once (even if it was only for a brief time), so he can be that man again. He comes from a broken home, too. He is hurting. I know that. Someone in a similar situation to mine once told me that her priest asked her, “What if the salvation of your husband is the reason God put you here on earth.”
You said you didn’t have time to read all of the responses, so I want to ask your opinion on this since I’m not sure you got this part…
Would your response be the same if you knew that there was another marriage in his past that he didn’t tell me about until after we were married (so a total of 2 marriages of convenience before ours and I only knew about one and he only had that one declared invalid). I wouldn’t have married him had I known about it.
PS - I don’t know if you’ve heard of it, but Rejoice Marriage Ministries encourages people to stand for their marriages, even after adultery, even after divorce. The ministry was started by a couple that reconciled after years of divorce. If you ever come across anyone in a similar situation, please pass on that info to them.
The man I married, by all appearances, was faithful to the church. He was on fire for the faith and the pro life movement. He attended Mass faithfully, stood in front of an abortion clinic every weekend. He came to be the man he is now through a slow fade. When I think about giving up, I always end up back at this - he was that man once (even if it was only for a brief time), so he can be that man again. He comes from a broken home, too. He is hurting. I know that. Someone in a similar situation to mine once told me that her priest asked her, “What if the salvation of your husband is the reason God put you here on earth.”
You said you didn’t have time to read all of the responses, so I want to ask your opinion on this since I’m not sure you got this part…
Would your response be the same if you knew that there was another marriage in his past that he didn’t tell me about until after we were married (so a total of 2 marriages of convenience before ours and I only knew about one and he only had that one declared invalid). I wouldn’t have married him had I known about it.
PS - I don’t know if you’ve heard of it, but Rejoice Marriage Ministries encourages people to stand for their marriages, even after adultery, even after divorce. The ministry was started by a couple that reconciled after years of divorce. If you ever come across anyone in a similar situation, please pass on that info to them.
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sunny_days
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Yes, when I was out of the fog enough (after the affair was revealed) to begin to start coming to terms with things, I came across from the divorce certificate from that first marriage in our filing cabinet. I had blocked the revelation of that marriage out of my mind for years, and seeing that certificate hit me like a ton of bricks.I agree. Sounds like a classic case of fraud to me. Doesn’t sound like there is a marriage TO SAVE in the eyes of God here. He wasn’t free to marry and he lied about it.
What a mess is right.
I made an appointment with my pastor ASAP and told him about it. I was fretting about being in an invalid marriage and what it would mean for my daughter, etc. He said he believed our marriage is valid. My pastor advised me to stay on the same course - pray, wait, see what happens. So that is what I have been doing.
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St_Pancake
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Since I wrote the response, I have read all of the messages and my response would be the same and actually even more so since your response to me.St Pancake, thank you for your response. That is why I haven’t filed for divorce…because I also serve God who is in the redemption business and I also know nothing is impossible.
The man I married, by all appearances, was faithful to the church. He was on fire for the faith and the pro life movement. He attended Mass faithfully, stood in front of an abortion clinic every weekend. He came to be the man he is now through a slow fade. When I think about giving up, I always end up back at this - he was that man once (even if it was only for a brief time), so he can be that man again. He comes from a broken home, too. He is hurting. I know that. Someone in a similar situation to mine once told me that her priest asked her, “What if the salvation of your husband is the reason God put you here on earth.”
You said you didn’t have time to read all of the responses, so I want to ask your opinion on this since I’m not sure you got this part…
Would your response be the same if you knew that there was another marriage in his past that he didn’t tell me about until after we were married (so a total of 2 marriages of convenience before ours and I only knew about one and he only had that one declared invalid). I wouldn’t have married him had I known about it.
PS - I don’t know if you’ve heard of it, but Rejoice Marriage Ministries encourages people to stand for their marriages, even after adultery, even after divorce. The ministry was started by a couple that reconciled after years of divorce. If you ever come across anyone in a similar situation, please pass on that info to them.
I’ve never been divorced but there have honestly been, some very long challenging periods of our marriage. No one has ever left or cheated. That doesn’t mean we weren’t emotionally disconnected for periods and only by the grace of God have we made it this far.
Long before I became Catholic, I thought marriage a very special thing. You stand before your friends, your family and your God and promise to be there for each other forever. Now as a Catholic, I see it as a sacrament and it better defines what I felt all along. Not all Catholics are willing to try as hard as you and I commend you for your appreciation of what God gave you and your willingness to fight.
None of this is easy and if it does get any better, it will be a long time from now. I’m going to say a rosary for you and your husband tonight and ask that everyone else on this thread try to say a rosary for you in the next few days. It may not work out but if it isn’t supposed to work out, at least you know it won’t be because of a lack of prayer and effort on your part.
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Xantippe
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Your pastor was not doing you any favors, although I’m sure he thought he was being pastoral. As a previous poster has mentioned, your husband’s failing to mention that previous marriage and divorce before your wedding is textbook fraud for annulment purposes.
In standard Catholic practice, your husband is assumed to be still married to that woman until proven otherwise.
Some of your options are either to pursue convalidation (which I would not do in your shoes) or pursue a divorce and annulment or to continue as you are, knowing that your marriage is almost certainly not valid by reason of fraud (which I would also not suggest).
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Xantippe
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Her husband has been married twice previously with one annulment and he did not disclose the un-annulled marriage to the OP before their wedding. How is he possibly the OP’s validly married husband?
OP, please take this to an expert on canon law.
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masondoggy
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I really think you should seek a second opinion, preferably from a canon lawyer or a priest that is well versed in annulments.
Your husband had an un-annulled marriage at the time of your wedding. He was NOT free to marry in the eyes of the Church. That fact doesn’t change no matter how many years go by. It is very possible that the first courthouse marriage is invalid but until that declaration is made by a tribunal, he is not, nor can he EVER be free to marry.
This puts you in a sticky situation because although you did not know about the first marriage at the time of your marriage and you have no culpability, NOW you know and that puts you in an adulterous situation. You are essentially living with a man that is married to another woman.
You can’t just let this go and pretend it’s not the case at this point.
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Xantippe
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Yep.
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robertmidwest
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Are you saying that he never told you about the first marriage? You just stumbled upon the paper work? That is what this sounds like and it different from what you have been saying–that he told you about the first marriage.
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Xantippe
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No, he told her previously and then when she saw the certificate, it jogged her memory and she realized that it was a big deal.
OP, did I get that right?
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robertmidwest
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Okay, I see it now.
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