NFP ruined marriage?

[robertmidwest]

In reality though, most Catholics pick and choose different teachings to follow or not follow.

Yes we don’t want the OP to be in a position where she is picking which Catholic teachings to follow.

For example… I will use NPF because it appeals to me, but ignore the fact that my husbands first marriage was invalid and never annulled. If we are going to use the whole cloth argument then isn’t she duty bound to normalize her current marriage? The first marriage is not hidden from her.

 

[Xantippe]

Yes we don’t want the OP to be in a position where she is picking which Catholic teachings to follow.

For example… I will use NPF because it appeals to me, but ignore the fact that my husbands first marriage was invalid and never annulled. If we are going to use the whole cloth argument then isn’t she duty bound to normalize her current marriage? The first marriage is not hidden from her.

Exactly.

This is not a wifely forgiveness thing. This is an “am I really a wife?” thing.

 

[sunny_days]

Okay, I hear your message loud and clear and picking and choosing church teachings. Wow, I feel some of your comments are pretty harsh, robertmidwest. While I have messed up in countless ways, I am here trying to get advice and information so I can do the right thing NOW.

Don’t forget, I have been operating for almost a year under the assumption that my marriage was valid, according to my pastor. He advised me to stay on the course that I was on, so I did.

Now that several folks have shown me the truth, I will seek advice from someone other than my pastor about what I need to do, where I need to go from here. I guess the diocesan office is where I will start.

I may have inadvertently not been following church teaching, but that certainly wasn’t intentional. Though this thread has sort of veered from where it started, I appreciate everyone’s comments and feedback. I don’t really have anyone in real life to talk to this about. Also, my parents are in their 70s and have been crushed already with the breakdown of our marriage and the actions of my husband. I can’t imagine telling them that my marriage isn’t even valid.

The past couple of years have been the darkest of my life and, well, being cheated on by my spouse was absolutely soul-crushing. It takes a person a good, long while to come out of that cloud of devastation and get back to life as you never knew it before.

Please don’t judge me for marrying this guy, or not getting my marriage normalized years ago, or whatever else. I will do the right thing in time. We live separately and don’t have sexual relations, so I’m not continuing on my inadvertent path of adultery.

 

[sunny_days]

Oh, and the prayers! THANK YOU all so much for your prayers for our family!

 

[robertmidwest]

Wow, I feel some of your comments are pretty harsh, robertmidwest.

I don’t want to be a jerk, I was just using hyperbole and sarcasm to get you to understand.

I haven’t fully gotten to my point yet, do you really want to hear it?

 

[sunny_days]

I don’t want to be a jerk, I was just using hyperbole and sarcasm to get you to understand.

I haven’t fully gotten to my point yet, do you really want to hear it?

Sure, why not?

 

[robertmidwest]

Sure, why not?

If you adhere to strict legalistic interpretations of church teachings he is going to split.

If you compromise your beliefs he may or may not split and if he sticks around you may have a legal husband, but not a healthy marriage.

The point being it doesn’t matter to him what you do. He was NEVER interested in healthy marriage to you. We know this because he only had the second marriage annulled because you insisted and because he concealed another marriage from you and the tribunal. He was NEVER really interested in what the church said from day one. Not only disinterested but had enough contempt to lie to them.

 

[Xantippe]

If you adhere to strict legalistic interpretations of church teachings he is going to split.

If you compromise your beliefs he may or may not split and if he sticks around you may have a legal husband, but not a healthy marriage.

The point being it doesn’t matter to him what you do. He was NEVER interested in healthy marriage to you. We know this because he only had the second marriage annulled because you insisted and because he concealed another marriage from you and the tribunal. He was NEVER really interested in what the church said from day one. Not only disinterested but had enough contempt to lie to them.

Yes.

 

[masondoggy]

Okay, I hear your message loud and clear and picking and choosing church teachings. Wow, I feel some of your comments are pretty harsh, robertmidwest. While I have messed up in countless ways, I am here trying to get advice and information so I can do the right thing NOW.

Don’t forget, I have been operating for almost a year under the assumption that my marriage was valid, according to my pastor. He advised me to stay on the course that I was on, so I did.

Now that several folks have shown me the truth, I will seek advice from someone other than my pastor about what I need to do, where I need to go from here. I guess the diocesan office is where I will start.

I may have inadvertently not been following church teaching, but that certainly wasn’t intentional. Though this thread has sort of veered from where it started, I appreciate everyone’s comments and feedback. I don’t really have anyone in real life to talk to this about. Also, my parents are in their 70s and have been crushed already with the breakdown of our marriage and the actions of my husband. I can’t imagine telling them that my marriage isn’t even valid.

The past couple of years have been the darkest of my life and, well, being cheated on by my spouse was absolutely soul-crushing. It takes a person a good, long while to come out of that cloud of devastation and get back to life as you never knew it before.

Please don’t judge me for marrying this guy, or not getting my marriage normalized years ago, or whatever else. I will do the right thing in time. We live separately and don’t have sexual relations, so I’m not continuing on my inadvertent path of adultery.

I don’t believe for a minute that you have done anything wrong, I hope my post didn’t give you that impression. You did the right thing by seeking the advice of your pastor and following that advice. You have been the wronged victim in all of this (and I don’t really care what you may or may not have done to contribute to the breakdown of the marriage. This all started with HIS lies from the very beginning.)

I was just trying to point out that sometimes pastors unintentionally give inaccurate advice to parishioners. They’re not all experts in canon law, kwim? How many priests advise people to continue using birth control? They may truly not understand the Church’s teaching, or have been taught wrong in the seminary, or they’re deliberately disobedient. Either way, that advice would still be wrong and leading that parishioner down a very dangerous path.

If you go to your priest and he tells you it’s OK to continue using birth control but you know and understand that the Church clearly teaches against it, are you still going to follow your priests advice? I think it’s the same thing here.

And you need to know one way or another (the validity of your marriage) because A. if he decides to get his act together and come home you could then be living in an adulterous situation or B. You continue sitting around thinking that you’re stuck in a bad marriage to a man that’s really married to somebody else. And that is no way to live.

My advice: If your marriage is invalid in the eyes of the Church, stop sitting around and waiting and move on with your life. * You deserve better. *

 

[sunny_days]

I spoke with someone at my diocese’s tribunal office this morning. She confirmed that my H did only submit the paperwork on the one marriage to be annulled.

She said they have had cases like this before and that the marriage is considered valid and that I would still have to seek an annulment after being civilly divorced. She said his dishonesty would (of course) be one of the grounds for annullment they would consider.

I will respond later to some of the other comments, but have to work now!

 

[robertmidwest]

I spoke with someone at my diocese’s tribunal office this morning. She confirmed that my H did only submit the paperwork on the one marriage to be annulled.

She said they have had cases like this before and that the marriage is considered valid and that I would still have to seek an annulment after being civilly divorced. She said his dishonesty would (of course) be one of the grounds for annullment they would consider.

I will respond later to some of the other comments, but have to work now!

I hope knowing where you stand at least brings some peace of mind.

 

[spunjalebi]

Unless it can be proven that the OP’s husband did not know what he was doing at the time of marriage, the marriage will be considered valid. Just because a spouse makes stupid decisions and destroys a marriage years after the wedding day, doesn’t make it invalid.

 

[Xantippe]

Unless it can be proven that the OP’s husband did not know what he was doing at the time of marriage, the marriage will be considered valid. Just because a spouse makes stupid decisions and destroys a marriage years after the wedding day, doesn’t make it invalid.

I think you missed the bit about where he had a previous un-annulled marriage that he didn’t tell the OP about.

It doesn’t matter what his attitude was at the time of his attempted marriage to her if he was and is married to somebody else.

 

[robertmidwest]

I get the sense you think I am hiding something or making this up as I go along.

 

[spunjalebi]

I think you missed the bit about where he had a previous un-annulled marriage that he didn’t tell the OP about.

It doesn’t matter what his attitude was at the time of his attempted marriage to her if he was and is married to somebody else.

That has yet to be proven, and until all of that is proven, the marriage is still considered valid. I don’t understand how the Church can think it’s okay to “dissolve” marriages decades later after children, when many people consent to getting married in the first place.

 

[Xantippe]

That has yet to be proven, and until all of that is proven, the marriage is still considered valid. I don’t understand how the Church can think it’s okay to “dissolve” marriages decades later after children, when many people consent to getting married in the first place.

She saw the divorce certificate between him and another woman that was not in his initial annulment paperwork. This is very, very easy to prove just via paperwork.

As to how it’s possible to “dissolve” marriages decades later after children–people can’t just lie to their priest, the marriage tribunal, and their fiancee as to their marital state, commit bigamy AND enjoy the benefits of life-long Catholic marriage to the person they lied to.

 

[CatholicRaven]

That has yet to be proven, and until all of that is proven, the marriage is still considered valid. I don’t understand how the Church can think it’s okay to “dissolve” marriages decades later after children, when many people consent to getting married in the first place.

I suspect you either didn’t think that statement through to its conclusion… or I’m totally misunderstanding your post.

The Church does say that a marriage is valid until proven otherwise. What other posters here are pointing out is that means his previous marriage (that he didn’t tell her about!) may still be valid.

So if we follow that to its conclusion, then you’re saying above that you think it’s perfectly okay for him to get married even if he’s still Sacramentally married to someone else, and the Church should just say both marriages are valid (allow polygamy)… or did you mean only the marriage where there are offspring should be valid?

 

[Xantippe]

I suspect you either didn’t think that statement through to its conclusion… or I’m totally misunderstanding your post.

The Church does say that a marriage is valid until proven otherwise. What other posters here are pointing out is that means his previous marriage (that he didn’t tell her about!) may still be valid.

So if we follow that to its conclusion, then you’re saying above that you think it’s perfectly okay for him to get married even if he’s still Sacramentally married to someone else, and the Church should just say both marriages are valid (allow polygamy)… or did you mean only the marriage where there are offspring should be valid?

Right.

On spunjalebi’s theory a man (or woman) could marry, divorce, lie, marry, divorce, lie, marry, divorce, lie, marry, divorce, lie practically ad infinitum and be considered validly married to all of those previous spouses, while all of the previous spouses are unable to get an annulment and remarry because they are all considered validly married to the lying bigamist.

Ridiculous. One only gets a maximum of one Christian marriage at any one time.

And the presence of children does not make a difference either way–if a couple is unmarried and has children, that doesn’t make them married, and if a couple is married and infertile, that does not make their marriage any less valid.

 

[robertmidwest]

The OP’s husband’s first marriage was a civil ceremony only. I think to normalize her current marriage is basically just some paperwork. His dishonesty would be ground to annull is wanted to pursue.

The whole business of a marriage being valid until proven differnt sounds an aweful lot like “don’t ask, don’t tell” to me. My opinion anyway.

I have doubts about the thread being real to begin with.

 

[PraiseB2God]

My experience with somebody who likely has Borderline Personality Disorder and possibly Narcissistic Personality Disorder led me to a support group where I read many, many stories of people being wowed by someone who seemed so amazing, then after some years or marriage, bit-by-bit this someone seemed to change, sometimes flipflopping between the nice and the not nice, sometimes just being nice for outsiders and a different person entirely at home.

What I have read so far in your story raises red flags and makes me think of the many stories I have read. He appeared a certain way, but that doesn’t mean he actually was a man on fire for the faith. He seems to have walked away from it rather quickly if he was that on fire. If what I’ve said so far rings true to you, I will tell you: he was never really that man. It was the hardest thing to try to get newcomers to the support group to realize, and some never did, that the appearances part is just that: appearance. A show for whatever purpose. That people can appear one way doesn’t mean they ever truly were that way. If it was all show, then there is nothing of that fake man to get back, except the appearance of it. What you see now is, if I’m correct, the real him.

That he hid one of his marriages is another red flag.

But this leads to the real question: Do you actually have a valid marriage? And if you don’t, should you even be having sex with him at all? He hid vital information from you that would have affected your decision to marry him; this alone is enough for an annulment. He appeared one way before marriage but fairly quickly became someone else in some respects, potentially pointing to a mental disorder (another reason to declare a marriage invalid). He deliberately had an affair (Jesus provided it as the only reason at the time to divorce and did not say we had to consider the spouse’s salvation) to end the marriage (huge red flag: who in their right mind deliberately has an affair to end a marriage?), but came back and now expects you to be at his beck and call for sex.

Since your marriage isn’t likely valid, what are you trying to save?

Do make sure you are serving God and not something within yourself if you decide to stick it through. I do believe sometimes people are called to stick with those who have fallen so incredibly short, we are granted the right to walk away. But I believe many of us will stick with those people not for God or for them, but for us: afraid of making a mistake, afraid of what people will think…

St Pancake, thank you for your response. That is why I haven’t filed for divorce…because I also serve God who is in the redemption business and I also know nothing is impossible.

The man I married, by all appearances, was faithful to the church. He was on fire for the faith and the pro life movement. He attended Mass faithfully, stood in front of an abortion clinic every weekend. He came to be the man he is now through a slow fade. When I think about giving up, I always end up back at this - he was that man once (even if it was only for a brief time), so he can be that man again. He comes from a broken home, too. He is hurting. I know that. Someone in a similar situation to mine once told me that her priest asked her, “What if the salvation of your husband is the reason God put you here on earth.”

You said you didn’t have time to read all of the responses, so I want to ask your opinion on this since I’m not sure you got this part…

Would your response be the same if you knew that there was another marriage in his past that he didn’t tell me about until after we were married (so a total of 2 marriages of convenience before ours and I only knew about one and he only had that one declared invalid). I wouldn’t have married him had I known about it.

PS - I don’t know if you’ve heard of it, but Rejoice Marriage Ministries encourages people to stand for their marriages, even after adultery, even after divorce. The ministry was started by a couple that reconciled after years of divorce. If you ever come across anyone in a similar situation, please pass on that info to them.