NFPers and Providentialists

[NFP1Kate]

Simcha Fisher had an article out today that has really had me thinking.

NFP, Providentialism and Future You
ncregister.com/blog/simcha-fisher/nfp-providentialism-and-future-you/

In her article she says not to worry about having “too many children”, because the “now you” isn’t graced with the ability to handle the “future you”. She also mentions about learning to chart because the “future you” may need to do it.

What if one never plans to be a providentialist? I don’t see anything wrong with planning your family as long as you are always open to the unexpected life God sends. I don’t think there is anything sinful in charting throughout the fertile years. Once a couple has children and continues to be open to life, they may choose when, if ever, to have another (all while accepting one if God sends one). Since “serous reason” is so open ended by the Church, and JPII spoke about responsible parenthood…well, it seems like there is quite the contradiction going on here.

Any thoughts?

 

[stephe1987]

I saw this article earlier, and I have mixed feelings on this issue.

On one hand, people should be open to life, so God can send all the children he desires to bless them with. Nine kids may sound scary at first, but you will not be getting nine kids all at once. Babies will be born one at a time (maybe a set of twins or triplets, if you have genes for multiple births), probably around 1-3 years apart in age. Having more kids can be easier to handle than fewer, because the kids will be able to play with each other and keep each other company so the parents don’t have to entertain them. I hear about some parents with one child who say how much of a handful he/she is because he/she wants to be entertained. No siblings to play with means you only have your parents. And you can’t always have a friend over. Also, more kids around can help with chores.

On the other hand, people have different values about money. Some people do not want kids unless they can afford to put all of them through college. So they space them out accordingly (make sure not too many are in school at the same time). Some parents want their kids to have a private Catholic education for all of their schooling. Other parents send their kids to public schools or homeschool them, and they say that if a kid wants to go to college, he/she can put him/herself through school using grants, scholarships and loans. Some families live in neighborhoods where the house payments are high so they don’t have as much money for things. Other families live in lower-cost neighborhoods so they have more spending money.

I think the choice about money is up to the individual couple.
More kids or less kids?
Private, public, or homeschool?
Where should we buy our house at?
Are we putting the kids through college, or do the kids need to put themselves through?
Should we both work, or should one of us stay home with the kids? And if one parent stays home, for how long? End of high school? Until the kids are old enough for school? Maybe work part-time when the youngest is old enough for school, so you’ll be home when the kids get out and they won’t be home alone?

There are lots of decisions that every couple must make when planning their family.

 

[RedSoxWife]

Simcha Fisher had an article out today that has really had me thinking.

NFP, Providentialism and Future You
ncregister.com/blog/simcha-fisher/nfp-providentialism-and-future-you/

In her article she says not to worry about having “too many children”, because the “now you” isn’t graced with the ability to handle the “future you”. She also mentions about learning to chart because the “future you” may need to do it.

What if one never plans to be a providentialist? I don’t see anything wrong with planning your family as long as you are always open to the unexpected life God sends. I don’t think there is anything sinful in charting throughout the fertile years. Once a couple has children and continues to be open to life, they may choose when, if ever, to have another (all while accepting one if God sends one). Since “serous reason” is so open ended by the Church, and JPII spoke about responsible parenthood…well, it seems like there is quite the contradiction going on here.

Any thoughts?

I don’t think there’s anything wrong with charting and as long as your prayerfully discerning each month whether you have serious reason to avoid I don’t see any reason there’d be a problem.

I do dislike how often I see providentalists accused of irresponsible parenthood (not saying your doing this, but I’ve definitely seen it on this forum in the past), as if there’s some sort of requirement to use NFP, because there’s not… but you certainly can use it to know about your fertility and to avoid when you have serious reason, or even try to conceive when you don’t. We are providentalists at the moment, and hope that we are forever barring any disasters, and so often I run across the opposite sentiment online, that not using NFP means we’re reckless and that it would be better for our marriage to use it… and on and on and on.

As long as your prayerfully discerning I don’t see anything wrong with it.

 

[Rita77]

It not only healthy to be adaptable to switching from one to the other (nfp and “leave it up to God”) as life happens but it even more important to have both spouses in total agreement with each other about it. one spouse desperately wanting a baby and the other believes they have very serious reason to avoid pregnancy it a big problem if it happens. There is not compromise you either have a baby or not and one spouse will be disrespected. You can talk about your reason till your face turns blue but the other will feel pushed or talked into something they feel wasn’t right for them.

I know what I’m about to say is a big hot button but I think having many babies less than 18 months apart has very high percentage of major health issues for the mother (I’m one of them, my first few are less than 18 months apart and now I have major health issues). it doesn’t always happen but there is a much higher risk than if you space them out more.

if couples want to “leave it up to God” then for the health of the mother try to breastfeed in a way that naturally spaces babies farther apart. Breastfeeding doesn’t always give much better spacing but its worth a try.

nfp is knowledge about you body and how it works you can still have as many as possible, its just knowledge about your health.

 

[kristacecilia]

Simcha Fisher had an article out today that has really had me thinking.

NFP, Providentialism and Future You
ncregister.com/blog/simcha-fisher/nfp-providentialism-and-future-you/

In her article she says not to worry about having “too many children”, because the “now you” isn’t graced with the ability to handle the “future you”. She also mentions about learning to chart because the “future you” may need to do it.

What if one never plans to be a providentialist? I don’t see anything wrong with planning your family as long as you are always open to the unexpected life God sends. I don’t think there is anything sinful in charting throughout the fertile years. Once a couple has children and continues to be open to life, they may choose when, if ever, to have another (all while accepting one if God sends one). Since “serous reason” is so open ended by the Church, and JPII spoke about responsible parenthood…well, it seems like there is quite the contradiction going on here.

Any thoughts?

I actually read and loved this article.

When I first started out I was petrified at the idea of ending up with “too many kids”. I mean, we were committed to being open to life and only using moral means (NFP) to space our family, but the idea that I was 21 and had 25 or 30 years of fertility ahead of me and could potentially end up with 15 kids was absolutely frightening. I am pretty sure I expressed it on CAF years ago. Anyway.

Here I am… pregnant with #5 and coming up on our 9th anniversary. I am not scared anymore. Using NFP and being open to life has changed ME. I have never had a problem using NFP, and we have used it between each pregnancy to space the births to roughly two years apart each time, but just being honest with each other and with God, being open to life, and enjoying each blessing as it has come (and each one has been a more enjoyable, sweeter blessing than the last as we have grown to appreciate them more) has changed US.

I can honestly say now, 9 kids doesn’t scare me. It sounds busy but wonderful. Each baby has become such a source of joy and anticipation for the WHOLE family- the kids most of all, honestly- and the wonderful blessing of seeing this unique person develop under your care makes it all worth it.

I have seen it time and time again here- young mothers or engaged women coming on and expressing the same fear and concern (“I don’t want to end up with six kids!!!”) and I totally remember being in that same place eight and nine years ago. I remember women with six and seven kids telling me things like “God isn’t calling you to be the mom of six kids right now. He’s calling you to be the mom of ONE kid right now.” and other great advice that didn’t make sense at the time and it MAKES SENSE now. They were all absolutely right.

So here I am, mom to five. I haven’t died yet. I haven’t lost my mind (or at least most of it, although there are some days ). When I look at my family I would not change it for ANYTHING. And I am telling you the same thing-

You will change. For real. You will. You cannot possibly remain exactly as you are right now for the rest of your life.

You are not called to be a mom of six or ten kids right now. You are called to be what you are right now, and God has given you the grace for THAT. He has not given you the Grace to be a mom of six or ten, and he might never ask that of you.

I think THAT is what she was trying to get at in the article. Its not that you can say “I will never be a providentialist” It’s that you will find as you move through your married life that you understand more and relate to the way providentialists think. You may even find that you agree with them. I don’t think there are really two camps. There is one camp, and everyone in it is just at a different point spiritually. Which is totally okay and understandable.

You are right that there is nothing wrong with using NFP to space births, given that you have a just/serious reason, which can mean so many things to so many people. Just don’t be surprised if your definition of just/serious reason changes substantially over the course of your marriage.

 

[jilly4ski]

Simcha Fisher had an article out today that has really had me thinking.

NFP, Providentialism and Future You
ncregister.com/blog/simcha-fisher/nfp-providentialism-and-future-you/

In her article she says not to worry about having “too many children”, because the “now you” isn’t graced with the ability to handle the “future you”. She also mentions about learning to chart because the “future you” may need to do it.

What if one never plans to be a providentialist? I don’t see anything wrong with planning your family as long as you are always open to the unexpected life God sends. I don’t think there is anything sinful in charting throughout the fertile years. Once a couple has children and continues to be open to life, they may choose when, if ever, to have another (all while accepting one if God sends one). Since “serous reason” is so open ended by the Church, and JPII spoke about responsible parenthood…well, it seems like there is quite the contradiction going on here.

Any thoughts?

To help put your mind at ease, we chart and are providentialists (sort of). Every time we specifically tried to avoid, I was infertile anyways. We do have 2(3) kids very close together. but when I actually consider each kid as an individual it does not seem like they are that close, even though they are less than 2 years apart. I am sure in the future we may decide to space our children farther apart than they are, or God may decide for us and reduce our fertility.

You see there is always a “conflict” between providentialism and planning. One may plan wait for children now and have them in the future, but then find out they cannot or their fertility is greatly reduced. One may decide to be a proidentialist and just let babies come, but when they don’t they might plan and learn NFP or see a fertility doctor to help them conceive. These conflicts are inherent in our lives and all we can do is try to grow in faith and grace so we can accept these trials and conflicts as they come.

 

[anp1215]

I read this article earlier today and loved it. Simcha is my favorite blogger there.

I agreed with everything she said in the article. She’s basically saying don’t sneer at one side or the other, because you have absolutely no way of knowing what the future holds. You may say “I’ll never be a providentialist” but you don’t know what will happen in the future. God may choose to bless you with enormous health and wealth and you will have no serious reason to avoid having children ever again.

On the other hand, you may say “I’ll never use NFP because that’s saying no to God!” and then you may experience a debilitating illness that would render any future pregnancies very dangerous. Or your spouse may lose their job. A natural disaster may destroy your home. Your parent might become extremely ill and need you to take care of them full time.

That’s all she’s saying. You don’t know what may happen in the future so never say never.

Kind of reminds me of the saying, “Never judge a man until you’ve walked a mile in his moccasins.”

 

[fpt]

for information:

theuniversityconcourse.com/article/1915.html

Statements that is coming from catholic lay persons about NFP:

“ NFP, while distinguishable from contraception in not being absolutely immoral, is seldom licit and always regrettable.”

“ Most married couples (especially in the wealthy West) are perfectly capable of having large families, and most reasons cited for not having large families are bogus.”

“ Couples who choose to have large families are making the religiously and morally superior choice.”

“ Since selfishness is such a near and present danger, no one should practice NFP without first consulting a priest.”

“ The following do not constitute valid reasons for using NFP: wanting to finish your education; wanting to save up for children’s future education; being tired; being stressed; being burdened by debt; having to move; having a small, crowded house; being depressed; feeling overwhelmed, etc.”

" The natural family planning is a concession to human weakness. The ideal is to have sex only when you are happy to have children."

Some traditionalists and sedevacantists say:

" The natural family regulation is a birth control sinful."
" The Natural Family Planning is diabolical [Evil]."

 

[PaulinVA]

This is posted in response the fpt’s post, but also the thread in general.

What is Providentialism? It’s adherents believe that God is in charge of when conception occurs. Is this really true? God created the biology that controls conception - we all know the mechanics. Providentialists believe that God actively decides, for each person, whether conception occurs. That implies that God routinely thwarts the biology he created, and I don’t buy that. I think that it’s more likely that the majority (99% or more) of conceptions occur because God’s biology worked without intervention. It isn’t God’s will per se, it’s that His biology that allows us to be co-creators with HIm works the way He made it.

Are big families more religious? In the recent past, faithful Catholic couples who were spacing children used the rhythm method. The rhythm method is not very accurate. Therefore, couples that were using that method had babies that were not planned. It’s not that they weren’t wanted, it’s that the couple thought they were “safe” and conceived anyway, because of an incomplete understanding of God’s biology. The large family was not necessarily something the couple wanted, although they welcomed their children; the large family came from using an ineffective method of birth regulation (approved by the Church) due to incomplete knowledge of biology.

So, when people look back nostalgically at the 50s and earlier and believe that couples were more religious because of their many children, they are not seeing the whole story. Those same faithful couples (faithful for using rhythm instead of birth control), if taught how to use a modern method of NFP, would probably not have had that many children.

Couples using NFP today are jut as faithful as couples using rythhm half a century ago; the difference is that there are fewer method failures now due to a better understanding of biology.

 

[gardenswithkids]

The artilcle was so…sane! I like how the author distinguished the “now you” from the “future you.” Some of what we become is by choice and some is by circumstance. When we make our choices, we should keep in mind that circumstances can change.

 

[fpt]

My thought

Do we know if the first couple had all the knowledges concerning the physiological of each one before the Fall?

I am not totally sur, but it is probable that the answer be yes because Adam and Eve had the Divine knowledge of the each one body. In the Eden’s garden, they were so wise, fair and perfect. That is by the original sin, by the bad orientation of the thinking that day after day human beings lost the true knowledge of their own nature (body and soul).

Just after the fall, the first couple had to deal with the original sin, but it had also the natural and divine knowledge. And days after days because of the original sin and their sins (punishements of God, excessive behaviors…,) their family and descendants lost the wise knowledge.

Today the medical sciences with the yes of the church understand the biological system of man and woman: human being is capable to refind what there were hidden by its own fault. When Church talks about natural law, she explains a situation that was created by God (it is a part of the Revelation, i mean the natural law).

Do we think Eve and Adam could know when exactly the conception could be (fertile periods and infertile periods) and/ or when the conception could take place? Thus my answer is yes, I am almost sure.

About Responsible procreation, I think that God had a family plan for Adam and Eve. Procreation yes, reproduction certainly not. Reponsible procreation is written in the human heart. It is one of principles of marriage. NFP is only the application of natural methods for spacing or avoiding the baby, it is an element of the natural law that was present at the beginning of the creation.

 

[fpt]

This is posted in response the fpt’s post, but also the thread in general.

What is Providentialism? It’s adherents believe that God is in charge of when conception occurs. Is this really true? God created the biology that controls conception - we all know the mechanics. Providentialists believe that God actively decides, for each person, whether conception occurs. That implies that God routinely thwarts the biology he created, and I don’t buy that. I think that it’s more likely that the majority (99% or more) of conceptions occur because God’s biology worked without intervention. It isn’t God’s will per se, it’s that His biology that allows us to be co-creators with HIm works the way He made it.

Are big families more religious? In the recent past, faithful Catholic couples who were spacing children used the rhythm method. The rhythm method is not very accurate. Therefore, couples that were using that method had babies that were not planned. It’s not that they weren’t wanted, it’s that the couple thought they were “safe” and conceived anyway, because of an incomplete understanding of God’s biology. The large family was not necessarily something the couple wanted, although they welcomed their children; the large family came from using an ineffective method of birth regulation (approved by the Church) due to incomplete knowledge of biology.

So, when people look back nostalgically at the 50s and earlier and believe that couples were more religious because of their many children, they are not seeing the whole story. Those same faithful couples (faithful for using rhythm instead of birth control), if taught how to use a modern method of NFP, would probably not have had that many children.

Couples using NFP today are jut as faithful as couples using rythhm half a century ago; the difference is that there are fewer method failures now due to a better understanding of biology.

It is a very good thought.

 

[gardenswithkids]

This is posted in response the fpt’s post, but also the thread in general.

What is Providentialism? It’s adherents believe that God is in charge of when conception occurs. Is this really true? God created the biology that controls conception - we all know the mechanics. Providentialists believe that God actively decides, for each person, whether conception occurs. **That implies that God routinely thwarts the biology he created, **and I don’t buy that. I think that it’s more likely that the majority (99% or more) of conceptions occur because God’s biology worked without intervention. It isn’t God’s will per se, it’s that His biology that allows us to be co-creators with HIm works the way He made it.

…Couples using NFP today are jut as faithful as couples using rythhm half a century ago; the difference is that there are fewer method failures now due to a better understanding of biology.

Dare we go there?

We believe in… the Lord and Giver of Life! Many people, (including some who use NFP and some who use* unacceptable* methods of family planning) believe that God is actively involved in the creation of humans. Few couples concieve each and every time they engage in marital relations, and most birth control methods have “method failures” (aka children :curtsey:shaw Believing that doesn’t mean that “God routinely thwarts His biology”. He’s Lord of Biology. Yes, God is in charge of when conception occurs, and He works us and with what we give Him.

The Church allows NFP for “just reasons” and leaves couples to prayerfully discern those matters. From past posts of yours I’ve read that you have serious reason for avoiding future pregnancies, and I thank you for your faithfulness in those matters. I also thank the faithful Catholics with large families.

 

[PaulinVA]

Dare we go there?

We believe in… the Lord and Giver of Life! Many people, (including some who use NFP and some who use* unacceptable* methods of family planning) believe that God is actively involved in the creation of humans.

God is indeed actively involved in creation of children. Creation is not passive. BUT, what I am trying to say is that God does not make an egg and sperm meet when they wouldn’t normally and he doesn’t prevent an egg and sperm from meeting when they normally would.

My issue is with the idea that God decides if a woman gets pregnant or not. If that were true, then NFP would not have a method effectiveness rate of 99%. God lets His biology run it’s course.

 

[lifeisbeautiful]

God respects free will as well, which is why a couple that should be open to life, that God may have willed for them to have a large family, could go their whole marriage baby free.
I disagree with the idea that biology is the only factor in whether or not a new life is formed, that God does not have a hand in deciding when a new life will be formed.
To me this almost sounds like deism, like God is not involved in what happens on Earth:
“Materialism denies the existence of God, while deism maintains that God is not at all concerned with the world he has created, though admitting the existence of God and the creation of the world. It is precisely the doctrine of deism that directly attacks the truth about divine Providence.” vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/alpha/data/aud19860507en.html

I mean, there is such thing as Divine Providence… God doesn’t just sit on the sidelines, throwing in a soul whenever we force Him to by uniting a sperm and an egg when we want to create a new life, and that’s it. Even when life is conceived outside marriage, sometimes in difficult situations… That life is still a blessing, a good thing God allowed to come out of something bad. And even when a couple does everything they can to conceive, they may end up not conceiving, or may end up conceiving in an entirely unlikely situation. How do you know God does not have a hand in the timing of when they conceive (or don’t)? Children aren’t merely biological consequences, why would they even be considered blessings if they were just a consequence, without God’s will being involved?

And along those lines, do you not believe God can have a hand in anything that occurs on Earth?

As to the original topic, I too agree with the article on the subject of “Give us this day our Daily Bread”…

I always figured that following the teachings we were all Providentialists that used NFP when necessary. A family can face situations where they prayerfully discern the need to use NFP, and they are still trusting in Divine Providence, they just have a situation where they have seen the need to avoid conception for however long they discern to have a serious/just/grave reason to do so.

 

[thewanderer]

God respects free will as well, which is why a couple that should be open to life, that God may have willed for them to have a large family, could go their whole marriage baby free.
I disagree with the idea that biology is the only factor in whether or not a new life is formed, that God does not have a hand in deciding when a new life will be formed.
To me this almost sounds like deism, like God is not involved in what happens on Earth:
“Materialism denies the existence of God, while deism maintains that God is not at all concerned with the world he has created, though admitting the existence of God and the creation of the world. It is precisely the doctrine of deism that directly attacks the truth about divine Providence.” vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/alpha/data/aud19860507en.html

I mean, there is such thing as Divine Providence… Go doesn’t just sit on the sidelines, throw in a soul whenever we force Him to by uniting a sperm and an egg, and that’s it. Even when life is conceived outside marriage, sometimes in difficult situations… That life is still a blessing, a good thing God allowed to come out of something bad. Children aren’t merely biological consequences, why would they even be considered blessings if they were just a consequence, without God’s will being involved?

Saying that God works through His created biology doesn’t mean that its against His will. In fact, seeing as it is occurring the way He designed it to occur it is all happening perfectly in accord with His will.

 

[lifeisbeautiful]

Saying that God works through His created biology doesn’t mean that its against His will. In fact, seeing as it is occurring the way He designed it to occur it is all happening perfectly in accord with His will.

Exactly, He can work through His created biology. Just because there is a biological process does not mean He does not have a hand in it.

 

[gardenswithkids]

…My issue is with the idea that God decides if a woman gets pregnant or not. If that were true, then NFP would not have a method effectiveness rate of 99%. God lets His biology run it’s course.

Well…I guess that’s my issue with what you wrote. God does decides if a woman gets pregnant or not, but He takes our actions and our desires into account. A couple can politely say to Him with both words and actions, “Please Lord, we’d prefer not to get pregnant.” Others make other choices.

We don’t have to defend our choices to each other, but God creates every human soul. Therefore, He’s involved with every pregnancy from the beginning–from the “planned”, to the “unplanned”, (and everyone in between.)

 

[PaulinVA]

Well…I guess that’s my issue with what you wrote. God does decides if a woman gets pregnant or not, but He takes our actions and our desires into account. A couple can politely say to Him with both words and actions, “Please Lord, we’d prefer not to get pregnant.” Others make other choices.

We don’t have to defend our choices to each other, but God creates every human soul. Therefore, He’s involved with every pregnancy from the beginning–from the “planned”, to the “unplanned”, (and everyone in between.)

I have to politely but strenuously disagree with you.

We are co-creators with God. God absolutely creates every human soul. But for him to ensoul a new person, mom and dad need to make love at the correct time and the sperm needs to meet the egg. I do not believe that He decides if a woman gets pregnant. He follows his rules.

He has created rules that work well enough and often enough that scientists have been able to understand them, and predict when a woman will get pregnant. How can you explain that if you think God is deciding on a case by case basis, and not following His rules?

If you believe that God is cooperating with us as co-creators but is still following His rules, it makes it a lot easier to understand teen/unwed pregnancy, birth defects, women with cancer conceiving, etc.

 

[lifeisbeautiful]

We are co-creators with God. God absolutely creates every human soul. But for him to ensoul a new person, mom and dad need to make love at the correct time and the sperm needs to meet the egg. I do not believe that He decides if a woman gets pregnant. He follows his rules.

He has created rules that work well enough and often enough that scientists have been able to understand them, and predict when a woman will get pregnant. How can you explain that if you think God is deciding on a case by case basis, and not following His rules?

How do you know with 100% certainty that He has nothing to do with when the sperm will meet the egg and create a new life that will be born 9 mo later? We know couples out there trying to conceive will make love at times that scientifically would suggest a good chance of conception, and, for some a baby will come, for others a baby won’t. There are so many variables involved, how do you know God doesn’t have a hand in this? And if God cannot/won’t affect when a child will be conceived, do you believe He can (will) affect anything else in life? Do you believe the only time He is willfully involved in our life is when He -]creates/-] ensouls us and then “hands off” until we die? Where does Divine Providence fit in all of this? The fact that we have been invited to participate as co-creators does not negate the fact that He is a co-creator as well (and we could not do our part without Him, but He can do His without us!).

314 We firmly believe that God is master of the world and of its history. But the ways of his providence are often unknown to us. Only at the end, when our partial knowledge ceases, when we see God “face to face”,184 will we fully know the ways by which - even through the dramas of evil and sin - God has guided his creation to that definitive sabbath rest185 for which he created heaven and earth.

1040 The Last Judgment will come when Christ returns in glory. Only the Father knows the day and the hour; only he determines the moment of its coming. Then through his Son Jesus Christ he will pronounce the final word on all history. We shall know the ultimate meaning of the whole work of creation and of the entire economy of salvation and understand the marvelous ways by which his Providence led everything towards its final end. The Last Judgment will reveal that God’s justice triumphs over all the injustices committed by his creatures and that God’s love is stronger than death.628