NH Diocese Latest to Restore Order of Sacraments

[Padres1969]

Yes, I agree, wholeheartedly. But that’s nearly impossible to enforce. Only the mandates for Religious Ed have any impact on most families.

That’s been the case with petty much every Catholic family I’ve ever known, my own included. Once the kids have reached confirmation (or the end of the sacraments of initiation), parental engagement in formation and ensuring the youth stays engaged in the faith ends.

In fact it’s one of the reasons I suspect I’m still Christian, if not Catholic, where my siblings aren’t any longer. Because of a quirk in timing of Confirmation I’ve mentioned many times before, where the sacrament literally jumped my grade/cohort due to a change in policy in my diocese, I didn’t finish the sacraments of initiation until I was 17. And as such I was kept engaged in religious formation longer than my siblings who were done at age 13 were finished with formation, and shortly thereafter Christianity by the time they hit their mid-high school years.

 

[M-Dent]

Nobody has criticized this cleric. Be clear.

It’s just a disaster for Religious Education. I think nearly every CAF member truly believes that people are not well catechized. What plan is in place to replace those years of teaching for our youth? That is what I am interested in. And how are they going to get the parents on board? Most kids don’t drive.
But…it will take time for that to become apparent.
peace.

Bishop Libasci is emphasizing that the reception of the Eucharist concludes initiation into the Catholic Church. And, as many agree - youngsters need the grace that comes with Confirmation ASAP.

He also is making it a priority in stressing catechesis is a life-long journey, not one that stops at confirmation - which has been the norm too often.

What are the benefits of restored order?

First, it will highlight that the Eucharist, not Confirmation, is the culmination of Christian initiation. Secondly, with the reception of grace of the Holy Spirit at a younger age, it will give children greater courage and guidance in facing the increasing difficulties of living a Christian life.

Finally, it will allow for more opportunities for parents to take their rightful place as the primary educators of faith formation. It places sacrament preparation at an age when children are naturally more open and receptive to participating with their parents.

If children are confirmed earlier, won’t they drop out of faith formation?

They might. It depends on their parents. Confirmation has been misunderstood and
often viewed as graduation from faith formation.

Growth in the understanding and living out of our faith is the result of a lifelong effort. Parents have the first responsibility of being an example of Jesus Christ to each other and living the Gospel each day. Children will stay in faith formation if they see their parents striving to grow in holiness through family
prayer, scripture reading, Sunday Mass, regular Confession, and living a life of
service and charity.

PDF FAQ From Manchester Diocese

The orientation toward family and adult catechesis is a much better goal.

 

[pianistclare]

Yep – totally agree that most Catholics are incredibly poorly catechized. My oldest two will participate in the usual 2-week catechism program at our parish this summer – and my oldest will also be doing Baltimore Catechism at home. Rote memorization and all. Hopefully she won’t end up like me, who after completing 12 years in Catholic schools didn’t learn that it’s a mortal sin to receive the Sacrament while in a state of mortal sin until I was an adult. Is there really any reason not to go back to the BC? I’m absolutely certain that it won’t solve all of the problems we experience. But maybe it would solve some? Perhaps wishful thinking on my part.

The BC is good. The only problem (if you want to call it that) is that some people believe that just anyone can teach catechism classes, and that particular book is not set up for discussion, and does not cite examples for illustration. Many catechists (I kid you not) just read aloud, get the kids to read aloud, and call it a day. Explanation and illustration is key to developing consciences. Otherwise it becomes tedious memorization and reading that some kids don’t respond to. We use the modern textbooks AND the Baltimore for refresher courses. One gets the facts, and then one gets the application.

 

[pianistclare]

Family catechesis is great I tried to bring that in last year, and the blowback I got from the pastor is one of the reasons I quit. The classes would have interfered with coffee and donuts! RCIA couldn’t fathom meeting n another room or on another day.
Lots of reasons why he didn’t believe it would work. Parents wanted it.
But I was told NO WAY.

 

[commenter]

That’s been the case with petty much every Catholic family I’ve ever known, my own included. Once the kids have reached confirmation (or the end of the sacraments of initiation), parental engagement ends.

In fact it’s one of the reasons I suspect I’m still Christian, if not Catholic, where my siblings aren’t any longer. Because of a quirk in timing of Confirmation I’ve mentioned many times before, where the sacrament literally jumped my grade/cohort due to a change in policy in my diocese, I didn’t finish the sacraments of initiation until I was 17. And as such I was kept engaged in religious formation longer than my siblings who were done at age 13 were finished with formation, and shortly thereafter Christianity by the time they hit their mid-high school years.

We’re grateful that quirk worked for you then!

I think I got confirmed at a good age, 6th grade. Students in my class were old enough to grasp some of what it meant to be a “soldier for Jesus Christ”, and that we would face struggles of defending the Faith. Nobody resisted getting confirmed. Moving the Confirmation age to about 16 or 17 was perhaps not a good idea, since it becomes a parental mandate. Some relatives were forced against their will at that time. They walked through the ceremony, then immediately dropped out of church afterwards.

There may have been a time when 17 year olds were mature enough to know their plans for life, but that sure is not now. My preference is to have something like you described, at age 13 or so. This would correspond to “coming of age” ceremonies in other religions, like Bar Mitzva (apologies to our Jewish friends). 13 year olds can make a commitment.

But the sacrament itself should be offered when young people are at an age when they can choose to receive it, say, 22. Fewer would receive it, but it would mean a lot more.

Christians are receiving the sacrament of Matrimony much later than they used to, on average; later ordinations are also much more common than before for priests. Diaconal ordinations we did not have decades ago, but those that we do have, are middle aged men. I bet Timothy in the New Testament was much younger than 26 when he was ordained, though that is about the youngest age priests are ordained now in the US.

We have to respond to the circumstances and trends in our own times.

 

[twf]

OK, go for it.
Let me know how it turns out. I’m so tired of fighting the fight with no support from pastors and anger from parents.
It is called the Rite of Confirmation, and it is sort of coming of age.
People decry that too.
You can’t have it both ways.
I doubt if the Lord worries too much about the “proper order”. By that rationale, no one can get anointed until they are almost dead.

Pope Benedict applauded those bishops who restored the traditional order. Confirmation is not a “coming of age” rite - at least its not supposed to be. Our Eastern brethren confirm / christmate infants immediately after baptism. So did we once upon a time. Confirmation is an action of the Holy Spirit, not of those being confirmed.
I understand your points from a practical perspective…but I don’t think messing around with the proper order of the sacraments is the answer. The Lord very well may care in which order one receives the sacraments…the Church is pretty clear that baptism absolutely must come first by the Lord’s own command. Confirmation perfects and completes baptism and the two were always administered together in the early Church. This is still seen with adult converts (or in fact with any convert over the age of reason).
I don’t have a solution from a religious education perspective…but I don’t think the gifts of the Holy Spirit should be withheld as a prize for teens who attend classes.

 

[Casilda]

Pope Benedict applauded those bishops who restored the traditional order. Confirmation is not a “coming of age” rite - at least its not supposed to be. Our Eastern brethren confirm / christmate infants immediately after baptism. So did we once upon a time. Confirmation is an action of the Holy Spirit, not of those being confirmed.
I understand your points from a practical perspective…but I don’t think messing around with the proper order of the sacraments is the answer. The Lord very well may care in which order one receives the sacraments…the Church is pretty clear that baptism absolutely must come first by the Lord’s own command. Confirmation perfects and completes baptism and the two were always administered together in the early Church. This is still seen with adult converts (or in fact with any convert over the age of reason).
I don’t have a solution from a religious education perspective…but I don’t think the gifts of the Holy Spirit should be withheld as a prize for teens who attend classes.

Amen

Maybe it is time to give up on RE, seeing that monies and time spent is not producing life-long, well catechized Catholics. It’s kind of like the public education system, America spends trillions of dollars and our students still stand academically below many countries. Too many education bureaucrats whose sole purpose is to say things are bad, we need more money.

 

[commenter]

Pope Benedict applauded those bishops who restored the traditional order.

Do you have a direct citation from Pope Benedict to that? Given that he did address other matters quite publicly, orally or in writing, it would seem direct documentation should be ample if he regarded this as important for all to consider.

I wish people would not put so much on “traditional order” of the sacraments, compared to “traditional age” for confirmation, which is more relevant. It appears Pope Pius X greatly reduced the normal age for First Communion, without changing the age for Confirmation. He, or the American bishops, could have done that, but chose not to. Why?

 

[pianistclare]

Pope Benedict applauded those bishops who restored the traditional order. Confirmation is not a “coming of age” rite - at least its not supposed to be. Our Eastern brethren confirm / christmate infants immediately after baptism. So did we once upon a time. Confirmation is an action of the Holy Spirit, not of those being confirmed.
I understand your points from a practical perspective…but I don’t think messing around with the proper order of the sacraments is the answer. The Lord very well may care in which order one receives the sacraments…the Church is pretty clear that baptism absolutely must come first by the Lord’s own command. Confirmation perfects and completes baptism and the two were always administered together in the early Church. This is still seen with adult converts (or in fact with any convert over the age of reason).
I don’t have a solution from a religious education perspective…but I don’t think the gifts of the Holy Spirit should be withheld as a prize for teens who attend classes.

That’s a big accusation. It’s not a prize, no one treats it that way.
Nobody is withholding anything. Stay in formation, show up on the big day and you too can be confirmed! You’ll just know and understand what it’s all about. Why is that so bad?
It’s a way to catechize teens, who otherwise would never show up.
We have to do what we have to do to save our children right?
Or, let’s just be technically correct and just let them go.
I do think the times are dire enough that and adjustment of thinking is in order.

Teens are at risk.
Come up with better way.
There are many ways to receive graces.
Just smear their heads with oil.
I’m surprised at people who think this magic of the sacraments needs no participation on the part of the recipient.
This is another big reason why I quit. I’ll take the people who complain about the music at church (being a Music Director) over the people who can’t understand the importance of catechesis (being a DRE) any day. Not talking about anyone here, but that’s the over-riding thought of parents. They just think it’s a big pain. For THEM. Fast forward and they are in my office crying that son or daughter doesn’t want to get married in the church, that they want to marry on the beach to someone who is an atheist and has no intention of raising the kids in the faith.
Well. They didn’t invest too much time in their kids, did they. People on CAF are the super Catholics for the most part. Posters here wouldn’t DREAM of not keeping their children in formation. But you all are not the norm. Not by a long shot. The restored order gives all those other parents a pass.

unsubscribing.

 

[pianistclare]

That’s a big accusation. It’s not a prize, no one treats it that way.
Nobody is withholding anything. Stay in formation, show up on the big day and you too can be confirmed! You’ll just know and understand what it’s all about. Why is that so bad?
It’s a way to catechize teens, who otherwise would never show up.
We have to do what we have to do to save our children right?
Or, let’s just be technically correct and just let them go.
I do think the times are dire enough that and adjustment of thinking is in order.

Teens are at risk.
Come up with better way.
There are many ways to receive graces.
Just smear their heads with oil.
I’m surprised at people who think this magic of the sacraments needs no participation on the part of the recipient.
This is another big reason why I quit. I’ll take the people who complain about the music at church (being a Music Director) over the people who can’t understand the importance of catechesis (being a DRE) any day. Not talking about anyone here, but that’s the over-riding thought of parents. They just think it’s a big pain. For THEM. Fast forward and they are in my office crying that son or daughter doesn’t want to get married in the church, that they want to marry on the beach to someone who is an atheist and has no intention of raising the kids in the faith.
Well. They didn’t invest too much time in their kids, did they. People on CAF are the super Catholics for the most part. Posters here wouldn’t DREAM of not keeping their children in formation. But you all are not the norm. Not by a long shot. The restored order gives all those other parents a pass.

unsubscribing.

One last parting shot:
The reason why people received all their Sacraments together was because at that time, most people were either pagans or gentiles. They came in as entire families converting.
Which is what happens to today in RCIA programs all over the world. The restored order still happens, in the context of conversion.
It doesn’t really apply to Catholics who are Baptized and whose parents promise to teach them the faith throughout their childhood and teen years. The more catechesis the better.
But if you tell people they can be “finished” at 8 yrs old, you have really cheated the children out of learning and treasuring their faith.

 

[gracepoole]

The BC is good. The only problem (if you want to call it that) is that some people believe that just anyone can teach catechism classes, and that particular book is not set up for discussion, and does not cite examples for illustration. Many catechists (I kid you not) just read aloud, get the kids to read aloud, and call it a day. Explanation and illustration is key to developing consciences. Otherwise it becomes tedious memorization and reading that some kids don’t respond to. We use the modern textbooks AND the Baltimore for refresher courses. One gets the facts, and then one gets the application.

Thanks! That’s an interesting and important distinction: facts and application.

 

[gracepoole]

Amen

Maybe it is time to give up on RE, seeing that monies and time spent is not producing life-long, well catechized Catholics. It’s kind of like the public education system, America spends trillions of dollars and our students still stand academically below many countries. Too many education bureaucrats whose sole purpose is to say things are bad, we need more money.

Holy whoa. How would doing away with RE altogether help the situation? If public education isn’t working as we want it to, the answer isn’t to abandon education entirely.

 

[Casilda]

I believe the PS school system is dying, homeschooling and charter schools are offering a better model. I think we need a different model for catechism.

The faith is dying, the church is in crisis. Same old, same old is killing it. If disinterested parents are left to teach their disinterested kids, do you really believe a disinterested RE teacher is going to be effective?

I have sat in classes where egos were more important than if someone had the right book or the money to purchase it. I have sat in classes of fifty that dwindle to a handful before mid-year. You put reverts and solid Christians in a class of teen confirmands using middle school materials. Really? Fluff. Wears the meat of the faith?

Yes we need to scrap RE.

 

[gracepoole]

I believe the PS school system is dying, homeschooling and charter schools are offering a better model. I think we need a different model for catechism.

The faith is dying, the church is in crisis. Same old, same old is killing it. If disinterested parents are left to teach their disinterested kids, do you really believe a disinterested RE teacher is going to be effective?

I have sat in classes where egos were more important than if someone had the right book or the money to purchase it. I have sat in classes of fifty that dwindle to a handful before mid-year. You put reverts and solid Christians in a class of teen confirmands using middle school materials. Really? Fluff. Wears the meat of the faith?

Yes we need to scrap RE.

With what to replace it? I acknowledge that I do A LOT of catechism at home. But how many other parents normally do so? What exactly is the equivalent of homeschooling and charter schools in this scenario? (And just for argument’s sake… Homeschooling and charter schools aren’t going to serve everyone. They can’t and don’t. The larger problem still remains.)

 

[twf]

Do you have a direct citation from Pope Benedict to that? Given that he did address other matters quite publicly, orally or in writing, it would seem direct documentation should be ample if he regarded this as important for all to consider.

I wish people would not put so much on “traditional order” of the sacraments, compared to “traditional age” for confirmation, which is more relevant. It appears Pope Pius X greatly reduced the normal age for First Communion, without changing the age for Confirmation. He, or the American bishops, could have done that, but chose not to. Why?

I was relying on memory and don’t have the direct citation handy… but I did a quick Google search and the Archdiocese of Denver asserts that this is something Pope Benedict appluaded:
denvercatholic.org/a-brief-catechism-on-the-restored-order/

Why is the Archdiocese of Denver doing this now?
The Archdiocese of Denver is restoring confirmation to its original place because children need more grace at an earlier age to become saints in our increasingly secular world. The archdiocese is not doing this on its own, but is responding to calls made in the documents of Vatican II, Pope Benedict XVI’s document Sacramentum Caritatis, and the personal encouragement Benedict XVI gave to Archbishop Samuel Aquila in 2012.

I believe the age of communion had gradually shifted forward over time. In the early Church, right through the early middle ages, infants were confirmed and communed immediately after baptism (the fact that we still anoint newly baptized infants with sacred chrism is a remnant of this practice). This was the norm. This remains the norm in the Eastern Churches. Restoring the order of initiation is a good move ecumenically in that sense.

 

[twf]

That’s a big accusation. It’s not a prize, no one treats it that way.
Nobody is withholding anything. Stay in formation, show up on the big day and you too can be confirmed! You’ll just know and understand what it’s all about. Why is that so bad?
It’s a way to catechize teens, who otherwise would never show up.
We have to do what we have to do to save our children right?
Or, let’s just be technically correct and just let them go.
I do think the times are dire enough that and adjustment of thinking is in order.

Teens are at risk.
Come up with better way.
There are many ways to receive graces.
Just smear their heads with oil.
I’m surprised at people who think this magic of the sacraments needs no participation on the part of the recipient.
This is another big reason why I quit. I’ll take the people who complain about the music at church (being a Music Director) over the people who can’t understand the importance of catechesis (being a DRE) any day. Not talking about anyone here, but that’s the over-riding thought of parents. They just think it’s a big pain. For THEM. Fast forward and they are in my office crying that son or daughter doesn’t want to get married in the church, that they want to marry on the beach to someone who is an atheist and has no intention of raising the kids in the faith.
Well. They didn’t invest too much time in their kids, did they. People on CAF are the super Catholics for the most part. Posters here wouldn’t DREAM of not keeping their children in formation. But you all are not the norm. Not by a long shot. The restored order gives all those other parents a pass.

unsubscribing.

I didn’t mean it as an accusation. It was probably poor wording on my part and I apologize for that.
“Just smear their heads with oil”…really? That sounds exactly like Evangelical arguments against infant baptism. The early Church right into the medieval period, and the Eastern Churches to this day, Christmate infants. And actually, for that matter, we do still anoint infants with sacred chrism, but as a sacramental, not as the sacrament of confirmation. Cooperation is required, to be sure, but not necessarily at the moment that the sacrament is given. The graces of confirmation, like the graces of baptism, are lived to their fullest when the individual Christian participates with those graces later in life.
We need ways to keep young people in religious education class…but I don’t think that overwrites the theology of the restored order of the sacraments. What do Eastern Catholic / Orthodox parishes do? They must have something in place.

 

[In_Hoc_Signo312]

I didn’t go through the entire thread, so I don’t know if somebody has already answered this on here. If Confirmation originally came earlier, when and why did they change it earlier?

 

[Vico]

I didn’t go through the entire thread, so I don’t know if somebody has already answered this on here. If Confirmation originally came earlier, when and why did they change it earlier?

Original order is Baptism, Confirmation (or Chrysmation), and Eucharist, in one ritual, by the Bishop. In the east that order was retained. “It became impossible for bishops, who were now also involved in governing, to preside at every Baptism. The bishops of the East solved the problem by delegating the Sacraments of Initiation to the presbyter, reserving for themselves only the blessing of the oil used in the rite.”

loyolapress.com/our-catholic-faith/sacraments/confirmation/history-and-development-of-sacrament-of-confirmation

 

[M-Dent]

One last parting shot:
The reason why people received all their Sacraments together was because at that time, most people were either pagans or gentiles. They came in as entire families converting.
Which is what happens to today in RCIA programs all over the world. The restored order still happens, in the context of conversion.
It doesn’t really apply to Catholics who are Baptized and whose parents promise to teach them the faith throughout their childhood and teen years. The more catechesis the better.

But if you tell people they can be “finished” at 8 yrs old, you have really cheated the children out of learning and treasuring their faith.

Again, this change is orientated towards lifelong catechesis. Your “finished” comment more aptly represents the current state of RE in the USA. FAR too many kids reach the finish line with Confirmation and move on never to hear another peep of catechesis.

And part of the catechesis is the understanding why Baptism and Confirmation are closely held together and point to the Eucharist as the fullness of the Christian initiation.

 

[commenter]

I didn’t go through the entire thread, so I don’t know if somebody has already answered this on here. If Confirmation originally came earlier, when and why did they change it earlier?

I don’t know they were thinking about what “order” the sacraments should be given in. Pope Pius X moved First Communion much earlier. Confirmation was unchanged.

I don’t know exactly what the “original” order was in ancient times, or if we, in very different circumstances, should follow that order now. I suppose the order in the gospels was Baptism first, then the Last Supper, then Pentecost. But the ancient Church apparently had a different order, as cited in many posts. In any event, 2 of our sacraments have been moving later and later for most people: Matrimony and Holy Orders.

There was a controversy in the 1970s over having Communion before Confession, but that experiment was ended, and First Confession pretty universally takes place before First Communion now.