Nice guys finish last belief

[Liberanosamalo]

So without further ado, I needed some time to pound it into my head that #1, hygiene, was not directed to me personally, but it did feel bad. You can’t just tell single guys that they’d better check their hygiene. No man here would tell that to the single women.

Again, none of this is directed at anyone personally. (I have a great sense of smell, but not that good that I can smell through the computer screen.) Just a pattern sometimes emerges among single men. This is one that anyone who is single for too long must ask themselves honestly or get a second opinion. I’m just saying what needs to be said because some men sit and wonder why they’re left alone. I’d tell that to single women too if they were lamenting their status. But I have to say it usuall needs to be said to women less… If I don’t tell them, who will. It sometimes needs to be said and I’ve seen too many single men who smell like a dank basement, with hair growing on the outside of their noses and out of their ears and between their eyeballs who might benefit from some good grooming tips. And lose the band shirt from high school, guys. Past a certain age, belts, non-denim pants, shirt collars, shoes and socks tells the world you’re ready to play like a grown man. (A suit and a tie can do the trick too. Really makes you stand out from the crowd. ALWAYS catches my eye when I see a man dressed properly for church. I’ve been known to compliment them on it. )

As for #2, any relationship based on pretending is a lie. It can result in invalid marriage if a quality was “directly and principally intended” (can. 1097 §2). The fact I’m taking issue with this point doesn’t mean I have some issue with my own looks or strength, but I won’t be bragging (at this time ).

Part of that was a joke. The main point was women don’t want to be the man in a relationship. Being nice is nice. But if I wanted to live with someone less manly than me, I’d live with my sisters. Often the cads and jerks are very manly physically. And they’ve grown up being big and strong and haven’t had to develop being nice. Not good. The other extreme isn’t good either. It goes with the passive thing.

As for #3, I’m worried by the “you all”. I’m sure you would point out that women are each a bit more individual than that, but the same rules apply to men.

“Y’all” is a southern generality and form of address not to be taken too personally. I know there are individuals out there. Practicality suggests I be general in my descriptions. Yes, women are individuals, men are too. We’re talking trends. The point of this was about generosity and stinginess and what women look for. This is an examination of conscience . If you’re a gift giver and generous, point 3 does not apply to you and probably isn’t what is keeping you single against your will.

As for #4, I’m worried by the part about not sleeping with other women and a junk bedroll being the explanation. We’re back to the cliche that a 30 year old male virgin who is not a priest has a problem.

That was a joke. The point being made was about how one chooses to live. If one is still eating off of paper plates and lives in squalor… a woman will want to see your apartment or house. That will tell her all about your cleanliness, your character, your tastes… yes… she’ll look in your bedroom. And picture whether she wants to share one with you someday. It has nothing to do with premarital sex, really. It’s about observing how you are content to live. Again, living like a bear with furniture will drive away many women.

As for #5, it goes too far. I don’t know what kind of men you need to put up with over there, but when I say that a past regretted is not an issue but a past not regretted is an issue, it means that a past regretted is not an issue but a past not regretted is an issue.

There are many men who have posted here on CAF who are not as generous as you are about regretted pasts. I’m speaking to all the single guys out there as a generality.

As for #6, the 6th commandment is not only about intercourse or even explicit sexual behaviours, but it concerns the mind also and the self-control very much, which I’m sure you know very well, so I’m surprised by your comment and I must take issue with it. Given the choice between giving up my sexual self-control around a woman and dying single, I would happily die single (in fact, I’d happily get shot cold right there too if such were the only alternative). Some women will think you gay if you don’t lose that self-control, others will resent you because they don’t have that degree of authority over you which that self-control prevents. But you aren’t any worse off by being run away from by those women. In fact, the latter is an abusive pattern (it denotes a desire to control others and switch their brains off).

My comment wasn’t about sex. It was about how “nice” guys should spend at least as much time learning about women as the men who would victimize them do. And while many of us are chaste and appreciate a man who respects that and lives like that, if you don’t show ROMANTIC interest in her, she may wonder if you are closeted or something. Because all she gets from the not so nice guys is come ons. Women who resent men with self control are in another category. I’m talking about the women who are beginning to think that the ONLY men who treat them with respect and seem to have self control around them are the gay ones. There is a difference between platonic friendship and romance. If you’re content to just be her pal but secretly want to be her husband, she may not know that. YOU need to make the woman see you in terms other than just a brother figure or something.

 

[Liberanosamalo]

As regards #9, the nice guy will typically have the disadvantage of boredom as compared to a “bad guy”. There’s always more thrill in rash, haphazard actions. As I also said somewhere else, abusers have personality problems and those all too often come with a magnetic personality side-effect.

Oh, you sell nice guys short here. Not everyone wants to live on a roller coaster their whole life. But it shouldn’t be terror stricken panic or the other choice is watching a husband put together train models all the time. Abusers have horrible personalities. But they are good at feigning charm when they want to. The nice guy has an advantage in that goodness isn’t an act he has to put on. But he can go an extra mile and not be totally boring. I’m just trying to tell guys that once in a while a woman likes to have a little spark in her life too. Not every Monday night be parked in front of the tv for the game. Or a guy who has spent 40 years collecting stamps thinking that because he lived on that level of fun his wife will want that too. Learn to make conversation if you have never had one before. Live your life and have varied interests. That will also put you in contact with a wider variety of women.

So that’s my defense. It was written in general, and maybe some or all of it does or doesn’t apply to the guys who are wondering where the nice girls are. But I suspect many “nice” guys have walked by hundreds of very nice women who they deemed just weren’t good enough, and are now upset that women don’t think THEY are good enough or something. Just trying to give you an idea of how some women think and why we fall for the jerk, who came along and swept us off our feet before you came along, or decided you liked us, or stopped ignoring us, or pulled your head out of the computer, or whatever reason YOU didn’t charm us with your niceness first.

As I said before, then by the time we’ve been played or deceived, and you come along, we wonder if you’re just another fraud so we’re even more careful and guarded.

 

[Norseman82]

I guess we can boil it down to this: what standards are we using in picking a spouse? The secular world’s, or God’s (looking at a person’s faith/morals)?

Additionally, regarding “getting a life before getting a wife”, at what point is one deemed having enough of a life before being qualified to have a spouse? Is it simply being able to support a wife/children? Or is this just another excuse used to indefinitely prolong singlehood?

And as a person who has kept his zipper in an upright position, I also have to roll my eyes at the gall of someone 10+ years younger who spent his younger years sowing his oats telling other people to be patient.

It seems that a lot of people forget that, unless we are specifically called to a celibate vocation, we were not built to be alone.

Again, are we judging be God’s standards, or man’s?

 

[ahollars]

I guess we can boil it down to this: what standards are we using in picking a spouse? The secular world’s, or God’s (looking at a person’s faith/morals)?

Additionally, regarding “getting a life before getting a wife”, at what point is one deemed having enough of a life before being qualified to have a spouse? Is it simply being able to support a wife/children? Or is this just another excuse used to indefinitely prolong singlehood?

And as a person who has kept his zipper in an upright position, I also have to roll my eyes at the gall of someone 10+ years younger who spent his younger years sowing his oats telling other people to be patient.

It seems that a lot of people forget that, unless we are specifically called to a celibate vocation, we were not built to be alone.

Again, are we judging be God’s standards, or man’s?

What did I do this time?

Having a life has nothing to do with finances, abilities, plans, opportunities, education, or whatever the world has in store for us. It means that every adult should accept the cross they currently have without reaching for the next one ahead of their time. There is no ideal for finding or becoming a spouse, but looking back, it’s important to remember that even after we marry, men are not simply just a husband and father for the rest of our lives, nor should our goal in life simply be to raise a family. The Church is a community, and every adult’s part is carried over from single life to married life. Single people who spend their time in service have little trouble with the patience part as long as they are occupied. I did volunteer work when I was single, and I still do it today. Married men, whatever their talents are, should share their gifts outside the doors of their own homes and not limit their wisdom or experiences to only their children.

Norseman, I didn’t make that up. My pastor said it in a homily.

 

[Norseman82]

It means that every adult should accept the cross they currently have without reaching for the next one ahead of their time.

So it is wrong to try to improve one’s situation?

And who is to say what constitutes “ahead of one’s time”?

By that logic, a victim of spousal abuse can be manipulatively told that seeking relief from their abusive spouse is not acceptng their cross and that they are reaching ahead of their time.

Our job is not to impose or keep people under their crosses. We should be trying to provide relief to the suffering, not criticize them for seeking relief in the first place.

Additionally, the Bible implies that if you cannot handle celibacy, get married if you are eligible; it did NOT state, “well, it’s just your cross, you’re wrong to reach out for the next one ahead of your time”.

You’ve got yours. Don’t criticize those who are seeking “theirs”.

Let’s leave it at that.

Besides, only part of that post was directed at you. The rest was a general summary of my thoughts regarding this issue.

 

[dulcissima]

I think that there is more truth to that than I would like to admit, but have realized myself that I am not attracted to guys who are too nice and try too hard right off the bat. I think it might be a chemistry issue. My boyfriend now is the nicest guy in the world, but he didn’t come across as the “will do anything for a girlfriend” type in the beginning, which is probably why I found him so “intriguing and interesting”.

 

[Norseman82]

However, I will single this out:

For guys who feel they are having bad luck, STOP LOOKING! You are trying too hard. It won’t happen until you let go and put it in God’s hands. You are not in charge of when you meet your spouse. God will plan that.

Where does it say in true Catholic theology that are lives are pre-planned? It is easier to state “it’s because of God” rather than confront people who do not align their free wills with God’s standards in seeking a spouse (and in other areas of life as well - read Sirach 15).

Besides, one minute males are expected to pursue, but if we do, we’re criticized for that as well. I for one do not take too kindly to mind games.

Practicing Catholic males just simply cannot win these days, can they?

Make up your minds, people.

UNA VOCE, people, UNA VOCE.

 

[ahollars]

So it is wrong to try to improve one’s situation?

And who is to say what constitutes “ahead of one’s time”?

By that logic, a victim of spousal abuse can be manipulatively told that seeking relief from their abusive spouse is not acceptng their cross and that they are reaching ahead of their time.

Our job is not to impose or keep people under their crosses. We should be trying to provide relief to the suffering, not criticize them for seeking relief in the first place.

Additionally, the Bible implies that if you cannot handle celibacy, get married if you are eligible; it did NOT state, “well, it’s just your cross, you’re wrong to reach out for the next one ahead of your time”.

You’ve got yours. Don’t criticize those who are seeking “theirs”.

Let’s leave it at that.

Besides, only part of that post was directed at you. The rest was a general summary of my thoughts regarding this issue.

My apologies, I wasn’t trying to criticize. I wanted to highlight how some of the ladies on this thread have pointed out that a lack of patience can be sensed by them, and it’s usually not a good indicator in their eyes. I remember being that way myself. If we actively seek, is God in control, or are we? No one can answer that, except you. Personally, I gave up, and the rest is history.

BTW, given our last conversation, have you considered expanding your pool of potentials, even if only slightly?

 

[Norseman82]

My apologies, I wasn’t trying to criticize. I wanted to highlight how some of the ladies on this thread have pointed out that a lack of patience can be sensed by them, and it’s usually not a good indicator in their eyes. I remember being that way myself. If we actively seek, is God in control, or are we? No one can answer that, except you. Personally, I gave up, and the rest is history.

The point I am making is that there are mixed signals. We are told to pursue, then we are told to stop looking and be patient, then when we are in the “40 year old virgin” demographic, people make snide remarks about “what have you been doing all this time”. And this is just here on CAF!!! That’s the reference point I am coming from.

Well, the last lady I dated did ride a cruiser, so I am somewhat open to a “mixed marriage” so to speak. (But she decided to discern a religious formation program).

But I will not compromise my faith/morals, and I do need a certain amount of commonality in certain sensitive areas of my life. Let’s leave it at that and keep the peace.

[/QUOTE]

 

[Nec5]

The point I am making is that there are mixed signals. We are told to pursue, then we are told to stop looking and be patient, then when we are in the “40 year old virgin” demographic, people make snide remarks about “what have you been doing all this time”. And this is just here on CAF!!! That’s the reference point I am coming from.

People making that statement should think carefully about the world and the variety of different experiences within it. They are dangerously close to coming off as haughty.

 

[Norseman82]

People making that statement should think carefully about the world and the variety of different experiences within it. They are dangerously close to coming off as haughty.

It is not being haughty; it is the frustration of being given conflicting advice and being in the position of “no matter what you do, it is wrong”.

 

[Kit15]

1. Being nice can equal being boring if you have not developed any interests outside of videogames, sports, or poring over computer texts and actuarial tables. No woman wants to envision being with someone who seems to have no interests in anything outside his own narrow world. Be interesting and women will be interested in you. Learn to dance like Fred Astaire and women will beat a path to your door. Learn to make a woman feel like you’re interested in her. If your social skills are lacking, find a way to fix that. (If you don’t know if you lack social skills, ask your sister. She’ll always tell you the truth about yourself. If you don’t have a sister, ask someone else’s sister.)

I’m sorry…I read this and orange juice came out of my nose because you basically described my husband in your first sentence (even the actuarial tables)…minus sports. It doesn’t really bother me because I like video games too.

But you are right about being interesting. DH…is certainly not a boring guy. He’s pretty eccentric, somewhat socially inept, and he doesn’t really get bothered by what others think of him…But that also means he can sometimes be amazingly gutsy.

Probably his more interesting trait is his musical ability. He has an *insane *singing range for an untrained amateur, perfect pitch, and has become fairly competent on every instrument I’ve seen him pick up and dabble with for a few weeks. Mix this in with his gutsy streak and you occasionally have moments of pure awesome (best karaoke partner ever).

But the fact remains that is is a complete and utter geek and I’m quite crazy about him. :hug3:

I can only speak for myself here. In spite of the fact that I am female and I grew in a female dominated family, I still have no idea “what girls want”. I only know what I want.

10. Do you know there are many really nice women out there who can’t seem to find a nice guy? Seems all the bad girls get all the attention. All the guys run after the sleazy users and gold diggers. They bypass the sweet girl in church. They marry the woman who cheats on them. Why do nice guys do that? Can’t they see the lovely Catholic woman who would be a faithful wife and mother sitting right under their noses?

…and this was basically what was going on through my head throughout much my single life. There was one guy in particular that had me thinking that way. Once I finally got it through my thick skull that we were NOT what the other was looking for, I was much happier person.

 

[Liberanosamalo]

Kit, your husband sounds like a gem. And you see that in him! He’s… a music man! Oh, if guys only knew what being musical does for a woman. (They’d all go learn to play an instrument or take voice lessons…) That’s why the guys in the band get the girls. Sing to her. Play the piano for her… the guitar… women like musical men. (Okay, maybe there are two of you out there who don’t. I’m speaking as a whole. Moms… make your sons take piano or the violin and don’t let them quit. They’ll thank you someday.)

Again, it’s like the birds singing… they know how to woo the lady birds.

There is NOTHING wrong with being a dork. Or a geek. If you can make lots of money off it, go to the front of the line. I’m just saying if that’s all your world is, you are limiting your pool of available women, unless you find one who loves pie charts and spreadsheets or model airplanes or something like that.

If I was a man and wanted to find nice women, I’d take ballroom dancing lessons. Just a suggestion…

And the more people you meet, the more people who might say “I’ve got a sister for you!”

 

[SeekingWisdom]

Kit, your husband sounds like a gem. And you see that in him! He’s… a music man! Oh, if guys only knew what being musical does for a woman. (They’d all go learn to play an instrument or take voice lessons…) That’s why the guys in the band get the girls. Sing to her. Play the piano for her… the guitar… women like musical men. (Okay, maybe there are two of you out there who don’t. I’m speaking as a whole. Moms… make your sons take piano or the violin and don’t let them quit. They’ll thank you someday.)

Again, it’s like the birds singing… they know how to woo the lady birds.

There is NOTHING wrong with being a dork. Or a geek. If you can make lots of money off it, go to the front of the line. I’m just saying if that’s all your world is, you are limiting your pool of available women, unless you find one who loves pie charts and spreadsheets or model airplanes or something like that.

If I was a man and wanted to find nice women, I’d take ballroom dancing lessons. Just a suggestion…

And the more people you meet, the more people who might say “I’ve got a sister for you!”

Oh yes, swoon! Absolutely-- ball room dancing and singing or musical instruments are part of being well rounded. Doesn’t mean you can’t like you can’t like your football. But ladies are more likely to like you dancing with them than reciting Troy Aikman’s stats.

 

[aball1035]

But why do SO MANY women want the “bad boy” persona in a man? What keeps them from wanting the good guy? If women are all about what’s inside a guy rather than outside, why does it seem overwhelmingly that women want bad boys?

 

[mistfall]

I want to know what the people on these forums think of this belief that girls aren’t attracted to nice guys. I have read on the internet that people say this is because of animal instincts, but why would God make people have to break His own rules to be able to get in a relationship?

I think when we women say “nice” we are thinking of things like:

fawning
easily smitten
obsequious
little self-confidence
no air of authority
not a risk-taker or adventurous
does not flirt

but is pleasant, and not rude or coarse

 

[SeekingWisdom]

I think when we women say “nice” we are thinking of things like:

fawning
easily smitten
obsequious
little self-confidence
no air of authority
not a risk-taker or adventurous
does not flirt

but is pleasant, and not rude or coarse

YES! Exactly.

 

[whatevergirl]

But why do SO MANY women want the “bad boy” persona in a man? What keeps them from wanting the good guy? If women are all about what’s inside a guy rather than outside, why does it seem overwhelmingly that women want bad boys?

Often times, ‘bad boys’ come across as wounded. Women like to nurture people back to health. Bad boys have a way with words sometimes, and making ‘that’ particular woman feel loved beyond measure…and only ‘she’ can mend his wounds from this world. Bad boys don’t come across as ‘bad’ in the beginning either. They wine, dine, and say the right things to ‘woo’ the girl…but then, as time goes on, they turn different. That is how they bait the girls. Now, remember Scott Peterson, the man who killed his wife and child in the womb, and is now sitting in jail? Well, there are a lot of women supposedly I have read, who write him, beg him to be their boyfriend. That to me, is not the types of girls I’m speaking about. That’s a whole other matter. That’s a whole other definition of ‘bad.’ Some women who are insecure seek out men like that, that THEY can control. But, largely, just in normal dating settings, the bad boy can seem wounded and in need of a woman’s help. It can be that simple. Many times women who stay with bad boys even after discovering their alter-ego, do so because they themselves grew up in drama and chaos. Dating a normal ‘nice guy’ doesn’t even enter their minds. I grew up with a lot of chaos…and I dated a lot of bad boy types. When I met my husband, I didn’t know how to take his ‘normalness.’ I was expecting the other shoe to drop…I became accustomed to dating bad boys. But, once I settled into the relationship, I realize…wow, this is how I should be treated! It was an eye opener. So, just think about these things the next time you think about a woman dating a bad boy…because it more often than not, is true.

Just my two cents. *

 

[ExDeoVita]

People on the internet who argue for this point define “nice guys” as “weak, unattractive, and unsuccessful” guys.

Yes it is biological for women to prefer men who have certain physical characteristics (height, athleticism, strength), to prefer men who are successful (whether it means leadership position, a good job, wealth and so on).

But this doesn’t mean that we want those men to be evil guys who like to torture animals for fun. We also want men with those traits to be kind and compassionate. Most of us would turn down an attractive and successful man if he were a sociopath.

Usually when people, especially people online, are talking about nice guys they are talking about guys who might be compassionate and kind, but also happen to be physically unattractive and professionally unsuccessful.

In the end, it is true, women don’t want those types of men. But many of us might still settle for them when we fail to get the attractive, strong, and successful kinds.

I generally disagree, as I don’t think ‘nice guys’ are generally thought of as exhibiting the traits you mentioned. However, given that their is no objective way of defining what a ‘nice guy’ consists of we’ll probably have to leave it at that.

From my experience, the ‘nice guys’ were the ones that ‘didn’t let their hair down’ and go out with their friends every Friday night and drink like fish or go clubbing until the sun came up. I know a number of good young Catholic men who are very athletic, well-built, take work seriously, and most importantly take their faith seriously the six days after they check out of Mass on Sunday.

In my opinion, the nice guys are the ones that really don’t place themselves abruptly in the path of girls or do not actively engage the opposite sex they way secular men do. As I understand it, to a degree, woman want to be perused and the common trait of those labeled nice guys are the ones that let the other demographic do the pursuing, especially if the social scenes deplete one’s level of virtue. I am not defending the guys that don’t take on the responsibility of pursuing the opposite sex, I think it is built into masculinity and is something that guys should do in a respectful way, but for a number of reasons (ie: being shy, or too absorbed in work/volunteer activities) they don’t. I generally hear those guys labeled as ‘nice guys’.

However, the definition of ‘nice guys’ is open to interpretation and may vary so I presume this thread will have many varying opinions that to a degree could all be on the mark in a sense.

 

[chevalier]

Firstly, Liberanos, I apologise for misreading the part about sexual self-control. In fact, it was perfectly clear and there was nothing to misread, so I must have been talking before thinking.

As for the other things, it seems to me that I am targeted - as one of the single guys (even though I tried not to enter this thread in that character) - but I can’t defend myself because then I hear it’s all general. So… it doesn’t give a pleasant feeling in the end, but we’ll get over this.

My opinion, Liberano?

The #1 way to tell if a man is going to be a good guy for the long haul…is how he treats his mother. (and how he gets along with his dad) But, his mom, moreso. My husband has a beautiful relationship with his mom. He is not a mommy’s boy, yet he respects and honors his mother, and treats her like gold. That ‘should’ carry over to how a man then treats his wife.

*#2, I would say to notice how a man treats women who he has no intentions of dating. If he is capable of having female friends, with nothing more. If he is charitable and respectful to all women. Not just women he’s dating. *

#3 If he trash talks every woman before you…RUN. I have friends who say that is the worst thing to experience on a date. Men talking about a)only themselves and b) every horrible woman before them.

*That’s what jumps out at me, anyways. There **are ***wonderful Catholic men out there, Liberano, have hope. :hug1:

Ha! That’s some great pearls of wisdom! That’s the same I would tell inexperienced young ladies looking for a decent man and seeking how not to fall for a con artist. This is also the same advice I give to young men. See how she treats people, look at her family for clues, think a while about what she says about the exes. I will not go into detail at this point, but basically all of those examples are “real life” as opposed to the “best face” put on on a date, although I would caution an inexperienced person against making hasty conclusions (not all people who don’t have great family relationships or who have had nasty exes are bad spouse material).

I think that there is more truth to that than I would like to admit, but have realized myself that I am not attracted to guys who are too nice and try too hard right off the bat. I think it might be a chemistry issue. My boyfriend now is the nicest guy in the world, but he didn’t come across as the “will do anything for a girlfriend” type in the beginning, which is probably why I found him so “intriguing and interesting”.

Thank you, dulcissima, yes, I’ve noticed a thing like that and I will insist it exists, even if I’m gonna get flayed for saying that. However, I need to say that some men seem to have that kind of thing too… even though it’s stronger in women.

This said, servility is a bad sign, doing anything to please may suggest a weak backbone (or being interest-driven) and being too nice doesn’t always come from being kind and humble - it sometimes comes from being a weasel.

There is NOTHING wrong with being a dork. Or a geek.

pinches self Say that again?

If you can make lots of money off it, go to the front of the line.

I’d say be yourself and be a good man. Don’t be a geek just to or only if you can earn make a lot of money being one. Be a geek and still be the best man you can, just like your friend who’s a jock, who should be a jock and the best man he can. Same goes for the preppy and the artsy. And you don’t need to make seven digits anyway. I perfectly understand people who put other concerns ahead of the amount of income.

If I was a man and wanted to find nice women, I’d take ballroom dancing lessons. Just a suggestion…

Yeah. I typically need to have 10 shots of vodka before I can do a waltz anglais or a tango right, but things I can do then!

And the more people you meet, the more people who might say “I’ve got a sister for you!”

Of course! Nice guys routinely score better with mothers than with daughters!

But why do SO MANY women want the “bad boy” persona in a man? What keeps them from wanting the good guy? If women are all about what’s inside a guy rather than outside, why does it seem overwhelmingly that women want bad boys?

A very good point indeed. This really doesn’t come down to anything else but the specific persona being attractive or not. Things change. There were times when a bad boy persona wouldn’t get a guy anywhere until he found some great, exceptionally caring visionary woman that looked past his exterior, came to the root of his problem and accepted him as he was, while changing him at the same time. Later on, the “badass” manner took on everywhere and now if you’re a gentleman, you’re a boring guy. As a rule. There are exceptions of course.

My theory is thrill and challenge, possibly also the perceived testosterone levels (one could say strong, risk-taking males are better for producing offspring, but the more careful, lasting, responsible males are better for bringing it up, which would even somehow fit the process of change in modern women’s preference with regard to men).

With me, I can tell you I was drawn to the femme fatale type. Well, never to a bad girl as in being mean to people, breaking the law, violating moral codes etc., but it wasn’t precisely the distressed damsel, either. I suppose you could break it into parts and say it ultimately relied on adventuring and fear of boredom. It’s probably similar with women who don’t want a really bad type, but rather choose the “messy” one.

I think when we women say “nice” we are thinking of things like:

fawning
easily smitten
obsequious
little self-confidence
no air of authority
not a risk-taker or adventurous
does not flirt

but is pleasant, and not rude or coarse

I disagree on most accounts. A nice guy may well be the one who’s not easily smitten, who does have an aura of authority (because he’s the leader of whatever team he’s in, or because of his upbringing), and it’s not true that nice guys don’t flirt, either. Or that they have low confidence. However, they do seem to be more sensitive, more on the pensive side, much less ruthless and much less risk-taking. See, one problem with the “nice guy” cliche is that it’s hard to define. Air of authority may well be half the reason why the nice guys win in the long run.