Nice guys finish last belief

[dakotagirl]

I feel as awful as one can feel doing this, even though I know .

Brains could be quite useful if one wished to teach oneself empathy.

 

[dakotagirl]

That and how to not fear being disrespected by the one who loves you the most. :hug3:

You can’t control people, Chev. (Controlling ourselves is usually ridiculously hard). You can only invite them.

 

[chevalier]

Brains could be quite useful if one wished to teach oneself empathy.

Don’t you ever doubt my coolness!

(Just kidding.)

That and how to not fear being disrespected by the one who loves you the most. :hug3:

Thank you. However, whoever loves me that much certainly does not disrespect me, nor do I fear it. I just draw conclusions from the presence of it.

You can’t control people, Chev. (Controlling ourselves is usually ridiculously hard). You can only invite them.

Of course I can’t, nor would I want to, although sometimes it’s particularly stressful that you don’t know whatever you’re getting into with them.

 

[Rose71]

As one great law professor harvesting cash in private practice said, “the beginning of good practice is good theory.”

I’m sorry, I don’t run. I gently circle the prey.

So, are you saying you go round in circles…
On the other hand, may I remind you what the great Socrates said, as reported by Plato? “A life not examined is a life not worth living.” Granted, I’m not sure one should take relationship advice from Socrates, but anyway.

…**and justify introspection by the alleged words of a man, who by your own admission did not go down in history for his views on selecting a wife ?:**p

 

[chevalier]

[Chevalier sighs wearily, slowly removes his glasses and places them on the table slowly while reluctantly casting the meaningful look…] “Someone wants to play hardball?”

 

[Rose71]

I am English - I play cricket

(which, unlike communicating effectively with women, actually is a very strange game with some quite odd rules and a language all of its own. Also unlike talking to women - the English men are rather good at it)

In other words - take some constructive criticism from the good ladies of this forum: lighten up; stop over-analysing; just be yourself and above all, if you really do think there is a glimmer of hope for a future with the person you have refered to in your posts - don’t mess around composing cryptic, ambiguous and sometimes (ducks for cover) slightly pretentious treatises. Only the Killers have ever profited from such ventures (and on the quiet, nobody over 18 really loves a man who thinks ‘are we human or are we dancer’ is a profound statement) - oh and possibly lawyers too

:thumbsup:teasing aside, I have every faith in you to act wisely and I wish you all the best in your search for Mrs. Chev …the martyr

 

[valient_Lucy]

To be honest, there’s a difference between the guy that a woman wants to sleep with, and a guy that a woman wants to marry. This is NOT to say that most women don’t want to sleep with their husbands, just to say that when a woman is looking for a man to marry, she’s judging by a different set of criteria. In that set of criteria, nice guys definitely finish first, or far ahead of the “bad boy.”

That being said, if a guy is interested in a girl, and he doesn’t make any effort to show his interest to her, or to court her, then it’s his own fault if she chooses someone else.

 

[Nec5]

To be honest, there’s a difference between the guy that a woman wants to sleep with, and a guy that a woman wants to marry. This is NOT to say that most women don’t want to sleep with their husbands, just to say that when a woman is looking for a man to marry, she’s judging by a different set of criteria. In that set of criteria, nice guys definitely finish first, or far ahead of the “bad boy.”

That being said, if a guy is interested in a girl, and he doesn’t make any effort to show his interest to her, or to court her, then it’s his own fault if she chooses someone else.

And when she ends up divorced and a single mom, we don’t want to hear from that woman about how there are no nice guys.

 

[Liberanosamalo]

Well, if the nice guy didn’t speak up in time to give the woman a real choice… if he left her to the bad boy… don’t sneer at her pain as she raises her children alone. At least be man enough to have some compassion for her from a distance. Don’t worry. She won’t complain to you. She doesn’t even know you exist. You never let her know.

 

[dakotagirl]

Don’t you ever doubt my coolness!

(Just kidding.)

Thank you. However, whoever loves me that much certainly does not disrespect me, nor do I fear it. I just draw conclusions from the presence of it.

Of course I can’t, nor would I want to, although sometimes it’s particularly stressful that you don’t know whatever you’re getting into with them.

I’m glad then to hear that. I forgot that men do need to learn “all by myself”, and so I will withdraw.

 

[Nec5]

Well, if the nice guy didn’t speak up in time to give the woman a real choice… if he left her to the bad boy… don’t sneer at her pain as she raises her children alone. At least be man enough to have some compassion for her from a distance. Don’t worry. She won’t complain to you. She doesn’t even know you exist. You never let her know.

Oh, but they do know. I meet them everyday. They are women in their 50s/60s, and they complain and wish they had met someone “nice”. Of course, they blame the guy they married as the problem. They never identified what matters, and they all refuse to listen to reason.

I don’t buy the argument that “it’s all up to the guy”. In this moral climate, it’s an outdated norm kind of like demanding that a wife cook dinner using fresh ingredients every night.

It applies to single dad’s too. I don’t chastise the women; the men, however, never bring up their past transgressions around me because they are still continuing the very mentality that caused them to choose a lemon and sleep around. I’ve set more than a few of them straight.

Considering the current climate regarding morality and sexual experiences, it really is a stacked deck against people that actually view infidelity, divorce, sleeping around, and betrayal as sins right up there with murder. These acts are not accidents like drinking a little too much or calling someone foul names. These are deliberate acts that directly reflect a person’s moral core.

And then we have people running around proclaiming that, as Christians, we should forgive and forget these actions. What nonsense. Forgiveness only works if the person truly attempts to reform their actions. Few of these folks ever make a real attempt. These folks rarely change, and past behavior is the single most reliable predictor of future behavior. It’s basic psychology and it’s Biblical (raising up sons/daughters yields joy or sorrow). If you do date someone with this type of immoral background, double or triple the time needed to trust this person. To do otherwise is really not due diligence.

This is why married couples are now a minority and living together or “coupling” has become the norm. Their childhood values or lack thereof have been reinforced from generation to generation. It’s tough to change such a systemic mentality of immorality. Marriage is certainly not the vehicle to change someone. Christ and the Holy Spirit are just about the only things I know of that can change these types of fundamental mindsets.

It is better to remain single than to marry a lemon and involve children in yet another broken and devastating family situation. My advice to chevalier is to simply be himself, and it either works out or it doesn’t. Don’t put on a veneer or change your attitude; it won’t end well. Going to more social outings can help you meet people, but the rest of the advice just doesn’t wash in today’s corrupt culture. Few people today share what used to be seen as commonplace values, and it is unwise to make assumptions at any level about people.

And if you deal with the occasional bout of loneliness as I and most singles do, have a glass of rum and coke and watch an action movie. Do not compromise on values, assuming people even know what that word means anymore.

 

[Liberanosamalo]

Not much in your post I find to disagree with there, Nec.

It’s why I’m waiting till my youngest is a little older to date. Though maybe if they had seen me around someone treating me with respect it may have made a difference. As it is, they have little up close example for their own lives in how a good man should treat a woman.

 

[Nec5]

Not much in your post I find to disagree with there, Nec.

It’s why I’m waiting till my youngest is a little older to date. Though maybe if they had seen me around someone treating me with respect it may have made a difference. As it is, they have little up close example for their own lives in how a good man should treat a woman.

That’s not how the game is played You’re supposed to argue and paint a rosy picture for all of the single folks out there. You’re also supposed to frequently throw out “Don’t judge”.

The part I always have trouble with is the ability of Christ to change a woman/man’s heart. In my experience, people really don’t change, yet there are those that miraculously defy their own backgrounds and do the right thing. We’re supposed to be open to that possibility and simultaneously watch for “false fruits”. Tough stuff.

 

[chevalier]

Whereas:

To be honest, there’s a difference between the guy that a woman wants to sleep with, and a guy that a woman wants to marry. This is NOT to say that most women don’t want to sleep with their husbands, just to say that when a woman is looking for a man to marry, she’s judging by a different set of criteria. In that set of criteria, nice guys definitely finish first, or far ahead of the “bad boy.”

That being said, if a guy is interested in a girl, and he doesn’t make any effort to show his interest to her, or to court her, then it’s his own fault if she chooses someone else

And whereas:

And when she ends up divorced and a single mom, we don’t want to hear from that woman about how there are no nice guys.

And whereas:

Well, if the nice guy didn’t speak up in time to give the woman a real choice… if he left her to the bad boy… don’t sneer at her pain as she raises her children alone. At least be man enough to have some compassion for her from a distance. Don’t worry. She won’t complain to you. She doesn’t even know you exist. You never let her know.

Now therefore, well, Lucy’s observation is very accute. It coincides also with what is said of some men sometimes that they are husband material but not really boyfriend material, thus implicitly they’re skipped because settling down (and growing up) isn’t being considered an option. I agree with Lucy that it’s hard to complain (to put it mildly) if a man doesn’t show his interest. How then is the woman supposed to know and what is she to do anyway?

However, Nec’s post doesn’t appear so simple as basically making the chase the woman’s thing to do, with which I wouldn’t agree. It looks to me more like Nec saw it in terms of “not enough interest” or “not enough sustained explicit interest at all times”, i.e. basically the “not enough” problem. And there I could agree because when there is doubt, it doesn’t hurt to ask; also, generally, there are many ways for a woman to show a man that his interest is welcome… or at least that it isn’t unwelcome, without any cost to the lady’s dignity (maybe some cost to pride, but that would be the wrong sort of pride). Moreover, there’s the problem of the no that means yes. Being hard to get is one thing, sending communicates that are directly false is another thing–one can’t blame a man for acting in accordance with a woman’s own words. In short, a categorical refusal or denial (“no, I don’t…”) is at speaker’s risk. The speaker’s situation is very tragic and potentially life-altering, I know this from an example of a very close female relative to whom this happen (the man took the no for a real no and didn’t come to ask again after fixing some things).

I agree wholeheartedly with Liberanos on sneering at the pain. The difference between a “nice” and a “bad” guy has very much to do with compassion. If we remove compassion, we might soon notice that the difference is in name only. On the other hand, there’s a poor link between the three posts because 1) Lucy is talking about a man who didn’t show interest, 2) Nec is apparently talking about a man who was expected to keep proving himself, which is different, 3) Liberanos talks about a man that the woman doesn’t know to exist. We obviously can’t all be talking about the same man.

So where does it all come down to? Communication. As G.B. Shaw said, “the single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place.” It may not seem to follow too clearly, but:

1. No means no, yes means yes.
2. Feedback.

These are the basic 2 things that will make everyone happier in romance terms.

Just in case, #1 doesn’t mean no subtleties, it means no (logically) false messages. Feedback doesn’t mean quarterly assessment, it means a simple acknowledgement or rebuke.This will assure that a man who respects a woman’s wishes and/or desires a mutual, partnership relationship, does not leave the field to whomever comes (and bad boys by defintion don’t really care about a woman’s wishes).

 

[chevalier]

It is better to remain single than to marry a lemon and involve children in yet another broken and devastating family situation. My advice to chevalier is to simply be himself, and it either works out or it doesn’t. Don’t put on a veneer or change your attitude; it won’t end well. Going to more social outings can help you meet people, but the rest of the advice just doesn’t wash in today’s corrupt culture. Few people today share what used to be seen as commonplace values, and it is unwise to make assumptions at any level about people.

And if you deal with the occasional bout of loneliness as I and most singles do, have a glass of rum and coke and watch an action movie. Do not compromise on values, assuming people even know what that word means anymore.

:tiphat:

The part I always have trouble with is the ability of Christ to change a woman/man’s heart. In my experience, people really don’t change, yet there are those that miraculously defy their own backgrounds and do the right thing. We’re supposed to be open to that possibility and simultaneously watch for “false fruits”. Tough stuff.

Seen it happen. Plus, “good” ones sometimes fall, too. Just can’t really cross out people basing on their backgrounds. Different thing if they’ve made a thought-out choice.

(which, unlike communicating effectively with women, actually is a very strange game with some quite odd rules and a language all of its own. Also unlike talking to women - the English men are rather good at it)

Communicating with women is not arcane science. It just requires certain adjustments and openness to the idea that some assumptions they come with differ from what men come with. Things get messier with emotional involvement and not only for men, for women too. From what I know, men can actually be hard to understand too for women.

In other words - take some constructive criticism from the good ladies of this forum: lighten up; stop over-analysing; just be yourself and above all, if you really do think there is a glimmer of hope for a future with the person you have refered to in your posts - don’t mess around composing cryptic, ambiguous and sometimes (ducks for cover) slightly pretentious treatises.

Hey, hey, we had just been joking. You can’t give me serious flak for what was part of a joke. I suppose it may sometimes be difficult to tell a general statement from more personal ramblings about one’s own situation.

Only the Killers have ever profited from such ventures (and on the quiet, nobody over 18 really loves a man who thinks ‘are we human or are we dancer’ is a profound statement) - oh and possibly lawyers too

Lawyers just want the patterns to hold together (the system mustn’t crumble down). In theory because in practice most are messy or normal.

:thumbsup:teasing aside, I have every faith in you to act wisely and I wish you all the best in your search for Mrs. Chev …the martyr

Well, thanks.

 

[Jay82]

Well, if the nice guy didn’t speak up in time to give the woman a real choice… if he left her to the bad boy… don’t sneer at her pain as she raises her children alone. At least be man enough to have some compassion for her from a distance. Don’t worry. She won’t complain to you. She doesn’t even know you exist. You never let her know.

This definitely applies to some ‘nice’ guys. But there are also some nice guys who are assertive and will go after the woman they want. It is the passive/shy ones that tend to over shadow the assertive ones in this discussion and the ‘nice guy’ term always seems to reflect those who do not take the risk and ask a woman out.

 

[whatevergirl]

This definitely applies to some ‘nice’ guys. But there are also some nice guys who are assertive and will go after the woman they want. It is the passive/shy ones that tend to over shadow the assertive ones in this discussion and the ‘nice guy’ term always seems to reflect those who do not take the risk and ask a woman out.

I agree…I don’t believe ‘‘nice’’ is synonymous with non assertive, and shy… My husband was very assertive when pursuing me, yet he was (and is) a nice man. Nice to me, means not a player, not arrogant, not pushy, not showy, not flashy, not sexually aggressive…a man who is confident and knows what he wants, but goes about attracting women the RIGHT way. That is what the term ‘‘nice’’ means to me, when it comes to men and dating.

 

[valient_Lucy]

And when she ends up divorced and a single mom, we don’t want to hear from that woman about how there are no nice guys.

Actually what will happen in the scenario I described (the woman marries someone else) the woman will pick a nice guy who lets her know that he’s interested in her over the nice guy who doesn’t.

 

[valient_Lucy]

Well, if the nice guy didn’t speak up in time to give the woman a real choice… if he left her to the bad boy… don’t sneer at her pain as she raises her children alone. At least be man enough to have some compassion for her from a distance. Don’t worry. She won’t complain to you. She doesn’t even know you exist. You never let her know.

Actually, I was pointing out that if the nice guy is quiet and never lets her know that he’s interested in her, the woman will marry a nice guy who DOES show his interest. So she’ll end up happily married to a nice guy who lets her know that she loves her, and the quiet nice guy ends up alone.

 

[Nec5]

Actually, I was pointing out that if the nice guy is quiet and never lets her know that he’s interested in her, the woman will marry a nice guy who DOES show his interest. So she’ll end up happily married to a nice guy who lets her know that she loves her, and the quiet nice guy ends up alone.

In the best of all worlds, sure. However, she won’t pick the nice/right/honest guy. The reality is that most folks today are divorced, single parent, living together, etc… so your scenario just doesn’t mesh with reality. Once upon a time, it may/did have made since to rely completely on the guy to ask the girl to dance/ have a drink all on his own. Today, it hardly seems worth the effort for the guy.

As for those that argue there are plenty of fish in the sea, both the sea and the fish have changed for the worse. And I’m not talking about Al Gore’s climate change. I’m also not arguing about perfection or ruling out people that have their inevitable quirks (like preferring cats to dogs or watching lifetime).