Nice guys finish last belief

[chevalier]

My favourite has been brought back from history’s dumpster.

Girls certainly like the nice guys. In fact, a real gentleman is far more attractive in the eyes of women.

I would say that is true although it does not always find reflection in the ultimate choice.

Maybe nice guys do finish last, but I believe they finish well.

As one of the former Polish prime ministers has put it, “you know a man not by how he starts but by how he finishes.” He was a commie but he had a shred of decency in him.

 

[Godisgreat23]

Nice guys finish last not sure… possibly! Nice guys not popular this is with sure certainty lol

 

[ack]

Wow, it looks like this old thread got resurrected yet again.

Over the past years, I have become more convinced that the whole concept of “nice”/“alpha”/“beta” men is flawed. The behavior of mature adults is so much more complex and multifaceted than the high school pettiness that many of us are unconsciously reliving.

The word “nice” could refer to:
1 - One who lives a Christian (moral) lifestyle
2 - One who tends to avoids overt or active confrontation in social interactions
3 - One who seeks to put the preferences and desires of others ahead of his own
4 - One who makes a priority of defending those who are in need
5 - One who is insecure and behaves in a way that’s calculated to win the favor of the greatest number of people
6 - One who makes an effort to avoid outward expressions that unnecessarily disrespect or discomfort others
7 - One who performs acts of chivalry in order to gain an advantage in social situations

Some of these attributes are apparent on the surface of a man, while others are not. Some are virtues, and others aren’t. Edit: Some men attempt to compensate for poor social skills by assuming some of the less-virtuous attributes in the list above.

Do nice guys finish last? The question is vague enough to be meaningless.

 

[chevalier]

Do nice guys finish last? The question is vague enough to be meaningless.

Naw, it’s not. But nice try, killing a thread single-handedly is always an impressive feat, even though merely attempted.

 

[Crescentinus]

Virtuous men need not finish last, for they can date the virtuous women.

 

[ack]

Naw, it’s not. But nice try, killing a thread single-handedly is always an impressive feat, even though merely attempted.

Come on – I’m sure that you’ve observed that guys will sometimes attempt to compensate for a lack of social skills by adopting exaggeratedly nice mannerisms. It doesn’t work, but does make it appear that being nice is a liability.

That isn’t the same as being virtuous (a word used in the previous post).

Do men (and women) with poor social skills finish last? Yep. But not the virtuous ones.

 

[chevalier]

Come on – I’m sure that you’ve observed that guys will sometimes attempt to compensate for a lack of social skills by adopting exaggeratedly nice mannerisms.

Of course. That’s what I do all the time.

It doesn’t work, but does make it appear that being nice is a liability.

Actually, in a corporate setting you will notice that someone with a conventional sense of courtesy and kindness will be at a disadvantage. Won’t get promoted or even noticed so fast, others will get either the credit or the cool assignments, sometimes people whom he helps will try to bring him down to cover up for the stinging awareness that they’ve needed help. Actually, non-psychopaths will generally be disadvantaged in that setting, with kind people getting the worst of it. Sometimes things actually are similar with the ladies (or with the guys, from a female perspective, I guess).

That isn’t the same as being virtuous (a word used in the previous post).

Kindness is a virtue!

Do men (and women) with poor social skills finish last? Yep. But not the virtuous ones.

There are people with high social skills who are nice and still finish last.

Please note that kindness and actually social skills themselves are the things that denote the “nice man” in fact. They’re the “gentle” in “gentleman” (not etymologically but anyway).

 

[erine]

Hmmm ok my blind reply.

As a woman I say the following guys “finish last” and do not interest me:

“Nice” guys who are obsequious, weak, impotent, effeminate. A turn off, a burden to me as I now have to be the leader, and deceptive because they often end up not being “nice” at all when they have resentments or don’t get their way. Also the men I’ve met like this always want some perverse form of femininity in a woman. The two examples that come to mind are those who idealize a strange superfemme; the height and looks of a Nordic supermodel and stereotypical Jessica Rabbit affectations mixed with a dominatrix…like they want to be rescued by this uber-femme who has now become masculine. I think it’s unnatural and disordered. The other wants this really creepily overly stereotyped feminine Stepford wife that is purely soft and a doll with no independent speech or thoughts. I’ve found both to be creepy preferences in normal seeming guys but the quality they shared is being “nice” in terms of impotent and groveling.

Bad boys who have cold hearts and like to use women or dominate them aggressively for sport. Even if they use primal responses women have to strong men and pervert them, most healthy women trying to be virtuous dislike their own responses, however brief, to this perversion of primitive Instincts and don’t respect this man.

I think these would “finish first” in my book:

A strong, dominant because he’s in control of himself, loving and warm and masculine man trying to be virtuous. Someone kind and charitable so “nice” in that sense, but not giving up his masculinity. Which includes being caring and loving. So in this sense this “nice” guy wins but it’s not nice so much as Christ like. Christ was so gentle when He walked the earth yet so assertive when needed (cleansing of Temple.)

Also older priests and grandfatherly pastoral type men I really love. They are kind and loving and strong and gentle with their sheep, good leaders but soft too.

I know this is a bit psychological but I think it’s important to define “nice”

 

[ack]

Actually, in a corporate setting you will notice that someone with a conventional sense of courtesy and kindness will be at a disadvantage. Won’t get promoted or even noticed so fast, others will get either the credit or the cool assignments, sometimes people whom he helps will try to bring him down to cover up for the stinging awareness that they’ve needed help. Actually, non-psychopaths will generally be disadvantaged in that setting, with kind people getting the worst of it. Sometimes things actually are similar with the ladies (or with the guys, from a female perspective, I guess).

It is true that in the workplace, unethical behavior is often rewarded over ethical behavior. In my reply, I was specifically thinking about women accepting or rejecting men’s advances.

Kindness is a virtue!

There are people with high social skills who are nice and still finish last.

Please note that kindness and actually social skills themselves are the things that denote the “nice man” in fact. They’re the “gentle” in “gentleman” (not etymologically but anyway).

Having a “nice” personality isn’t the same as true kindness, though. Acts of true kindness are done primarily out of a desire to do good for others, while one can adopt a “nice” personality out of a desire to be liked.

One man may have a gruff and abrasive personality but perform acts of kindness with a pure heart, while another man may put on a show of being outwardly nice while engaging in resentful or passive-aggressive behaviors. (The latter case is the one to watch out for.)

 

[fgh_123]

Nice guys don’t finish last, boring guys who get steamrolled do.

Everyone wants respect from others, and just as importantly they want someone THEY can respect.

I don’t want some meek lily livered girl who bows down to my every word, and in my experience, girls don’t want a guy who wont occasionally put his foot down or stick by his guns.

Be yourself, be passionate about things, and be open to love, that is enough.

If you are GENUINELY a nice guy, eg a guy that has bests interests at heart (and not just trying to get into a girls pants/get close to her etc), then you’ll be find.

You’re also as rare as hens teeth.

 

[chevalier]

It is true that in the workplace, unethical behavior is often rewarded over ethical behavior. In my reply, I was specifically thinking about women accepting or rejecting men’s advances.

There are many parallels between competitive professional settings and mating scenarios. Business isn’t actually that far from skirt chasing, nor is a first date much different from a job interview.

Having a “nice” personality isn’t the same as true kindness, though. Acts of true kindness are done primarily out of a desire to do good for others, while one can adopt a “nice” personality out of a desire to be liked.

True but it often comes down to basic respect shown to others or not, where a less respectful person pursues an adversarial or downright self-centred style, while somebody else prefers to be more cooperative and act respectfully for motives that aren’t all selfless. Still counts as nice IMHO. To pick someone who doesn’t even try just because those who do aren’t perfectly genuine would be extreme… but yet people sometimes follow that type of logic.

One man may have a gruff and abrasive personality but perform acts of kindness with a pure heart, while another man may put on a show of being outwardly nice while engaging in resentful or passive-aggressive behaviors. (The latter case is the one to watch out for.)

A bit of passive-aggresive never killed anybody. Sometimes the passive aggressive label is used to invalidate the way sensitive people process emotional injuries and react to being hurt. Then again perhaps a bona fide jerk is preferable to someone like this, it’s hard to say as that’s not a region of female psyche that I’d understand well. As a man, though, I’m mostly interested in someone who just isn’t rude and doesn’t disappear on you.

 

[ack]

A bit of passive-aggresive never killed anybody. Sometimes the passive aggressive label is used to invalidate the way sensitive people process emotional injuries and react to being hurt. Then again perhaps a bona fide jerk is preferable to someone like this, it’s hard to say as that’s not a region of female psyche that I’d understand well. As a man, though, I’m mostly interested in someone who just isn’t rude and doesn’t disappear on you.

To use an example from the workplace, if you are unhappy with how a co-worker has treated you, an active-aggressive response is to scream at him, spraying spittle everywhere, while a passive-aggressive response is to selectively neglect your own duties in order to hinder his work.

An example from the dating world is when a woman “disappears on you” (quoting your post) rather than explaining she’s not interested and ending the relationship. The disappearance is a passive way to solve the problem while the “talk” is active. (I’m hesitant to add the “aggressive” qualifier here because the intent is to escape rather than to punish though.)

From your own experience, do you see that you’d rather have the woman take an active rather than a passive approach to conflict resolution? Yet, one error of self-described “nice guys” is to prefer passive-aggressive conflict resolution methods while believing they’re preferable to the active ones. In the first example I gave, I do think the yelling and screaming is the better approach of the two (although both are suboptimal).

 

[chevalier]

An example from the dating world is when a woman “disappears on you” (quoting your post) rather than explaining she’s not interested and ending the relationship. The disappearance is a passive way to solve the problem while the “talk” is active. (I’m hesitant to add the “aggressive” qualifier here because the intent is to escape rather than to punish though.)

I actually had something different in mind but probably my natural chaotic manner of expression took the better of me. I was thinking uncertainty about the future of the relationship used as a punishment.

From your own experience, do you see that you’d rather have the woman take an active rather than a passive approach to conflict resolution?

Pouting and expecting me to find out what I did wrong is something I understand to an extent, as is a tendency to withdraw and generally go silent or otherwise show displeasure without resolving the difference in a business-like manner because, well, human emotions aren’t meant to be resolved in a business-like manner. It’s not an ADR training, it’s life. Same way, I can take a bit of the aggressive style, but overall I prefer to ever so slightly inept passive style to the kind of active approach that’s quick to accuse and quick to condemn. And I’d really rather not be party to a business-like resolution process (transactional, yuck).

Yet, one error of self-described “nice guys” is to prefer passive-aggressive conflict resolution methods while believing they’re preferable to the active ones. In the first example I gave, I do think the yelling and screaming is the better approach of the two (although both are suboptimal).

Well, yelling may be dishonourable but certainly not to the same extent as sabotaging someone like that.

My chief worry about the stigmatisation of passive-aggressive reactions is how people who are upfront and transactional use that stigmatisation as a tool to brand anything else than playing their game as something less than mentally stable or civilised. (Manipulating the process, basically.)

 

[CompSciGuy]

I keep seeing this recurring theme of “girls like guys who have dreams.” Perhaps I’m misreading it but it seems to me a vague notion. What exactly do you mean by dreams? Material goals? Visions of grandeur? I don’t have any of these. My only dream is to live out my life and enjoy it, and to love my neighbor as best I can. This includes laughing, loving, praying, working, giving, playing, talking, listening, sacrificing and persevering. It’s a simple dream for a simple man and it doesn’t require help from anyone, so if it’s too boring for any woman, I’d just as well do without.

 

[guadalupe_fire]

One of the oldest hit videos on Youtube is about this. Wong Fu Productions made “Just a Nice Guy” series a very long time ago. It’s a bit outdated in quality, but very poignant.

 

[Paddy1989]

Nice lad’s don’t finish last. It’s only lad’s who lack any interest or passion and come across as boring with little to no interests. Woman want an assertive man. Being a gentlemen is always the best method of getting a** good** woman. The same question could be asked why do women who wear short short’s skirts and dresses etc get all the attention from men. Because they appear more feminine, exciting, sexy and confident.

 

[BillP]

That’s an interesting take on it, I didn’t know it originally came from game theory.

It didn’t. Leo Durocher, manager of the Brooklyn Dodgers said it in 1946. Nash’s thesis on “non-cooperative games” wasn’t written until 1950.

 

[chevalier]

Nice lad’s don’t finish last. It’s only lad’s who lack any interest or passion and come across as boring with little to no interests. Woman want an assertive man. Being a gentlemen is always the best method of getting a** good** woman. The same question could be asked why do women who wear short short’s skirts and dresses etc get all the attention from men. Because they appear more feminine, exciting, sexy and confident.

Not to me, personally, at least not in a good way.