No absolution possible if I am in disagreement about a sin being a sin?

[LilyM]

I was brought up SSPX catholic and have since lapsed. But even that, and even the conversation with my wife and how the priest feels about it don’t really cut to the core of what I am asking: As far as I know, even if one of the spouses is a of a different belief, it has to be promised that the children resulting from the marriage be brought up Catholic. So, in my circumstance, I am wondering if there is any point even going towards a church marriage if this not the case. And my wife would ask you the same question, because we have talked about it.

So are you saying neither of you is prepared to commit to bringing up the children Catholic? If not, it really does seem kinda hollow of her to be wanting to marry according to the rites of a faith that she does not feel strongly enough about to want to try to pass on to your children.

 

[po18guy]

Well, we cannot compartmentalize the Church as a human organization over in the EU. It is the Mystical Body of Christ, and speaks with His authority.

When we sin, we do not violate Church law - we violate God’s law.

And that should concern you.

You need a well-formed conscience. We all do. Although it will be a hard pill to swallow, and may seem insulting at times, a good examination of conscience will do your spirit a world of good. Here is but one example:

https://www.leafletonline.com/examination-of-conscience

 

[BartholomewB]

As far as I know, even if one of the spouses is a of a different belief, it has to be promised that the children resulting from the marriage be brought up Catholic.

I can tell you from my own experience what the rule was back in the twentieth century, but it may have changed since then. The Catholic spouse (my wife) gave a written undertaking that she would bring up our children as Catholics, and the non-Catholic spouse (me) gave a written undertaking that I would allow her to do that.

 

[1ke]

No.

There are provisions in canon law for marriage between a Catholic and a non-practicing Catholic. It is treated like a mixed marriage, so you as non-practicing aren’t expected to begin practicing.

Although that would certainly be wonderful if you did.

Also, sins require knowledge and will— many Catholics don’t know about church law on marriage.

 

[1ke]

but neither of us knows how to get married in the church.

Step one, call you local Catholic parish and make an appointment with the Catholic pastor and talk to him about it.

 

[Mary888]

Just as a ritual that you agree to do just to please with your wife temporarily and not agreeing to raise the kids Catholic, I don’t think the Catholic Church does give away matrimony as a personal whim.
However, considering pastoral reasons such as giving you a way to be wed in the eyes of God and no longer live in sin, and considering you two want this wedding for your own personal reasons, maybe some priests will agree to it. This would be the sensible reason why they should wed you - to fix your situation.
I think it depends on how you phrase your need in front of the priest. If you were to tell the priest that you are now against raising the kids Catholic but you cannot foresee what the future will bring, would this statement be a lie?

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

You really need to discuss with your wife the religious upbringing of the kids.
It’s not fair to have one parent undermine the other one.

 

[PetraG]

No.

There are provisions in canon law for marriage between a Catholic and a non-practicing Catholic. It is treated like a mixed marriage, so you as non-practicing aren’t expected to begin practicing.

Although that would certainly be wonderful if you did.

Also, sins require knowledge and will— many Catholics don’t know about church law on marriage.

I don’t understand what you mean by “it is treated like a mixed marriage”? There is no permission from the bishop required, right? Or is there? Besides, neither one is practicing. Is that a different case? Marriage is a natural right, so I could see why a priest wouldn’t do anything but heavily encourage that they start practicing, but yet agree to marry them. What I do not know is whether the intention of at least one parent to raise the children Catholic was a necessary part of the requirement to be open to children (in order to have a valid marriage).

As for knowledge and will, it seems clear that the OP and his fiance were well aware that sexual relations outside of marriage are morally forbidden, which I think is the sin the OP was refering to. That is not a matter of which one can be invincibly ignorant, is it? (I honestly do not know the answer to my question, but if I understand him correctly the OP isn’t saying he has been ignorant of the moral boundary or incapable of comprehending it but merely unwilling to submit to it?)

 

[TheLittleLady]

Let me give you an example from my own life.

DH and I conceived our son out of wedlock. The act of fornication was a sin, and I repented of that sin, expressed my sorrow that I broke God’s laws. This does not mean that I regret our son, that I do not celebrate and love him from the moment of his conception.

 

[TheLittleLady]

This is an excellent website from the US Bishops

https://www.foryourmarriage.org/

Edit to add:

You may ask your pastor about the possibility of a Radical Sanation.

 

[1ke]

I don’t understand what you mean by “it is treated like a mixed marriage”? There is no permission from the bishop required, right? Or is there?

Yes, there is.

Can. 1071 §1.4 Except in a case of necessity, a person is not to assist without the permission of the local ordinary at a marriage of a person who has notoriously rejected the Catholic faith;

§2. The local ordinary is not to grant permission to assist at the marriage of a person who has notoriously rejected the Catholic faith unless the norms mentioned in can. 1125 have been observed with necessary adaptation.

Can. 1125 The local ordinary can grant a permission of this kind if there is a just and reasonable cause. He is not to grant it unless the following conditions have been fulfilled:

1/ the Catholic party is to declare that he or she is prepared to remove dangers of defecting from the faith and is to make a sincere promise to do all in his or her power so that all offspring are baptized and brought up in the Catholic Church;

2/ the other party is to be informed at an appropriate time about the promises which the Catholic party is to make, in such a way that it is certain that he or she is truly aware of the promise and obligation of the Catholic party;

3/ both parties are to be instructed about the purposes and essential properties of marriage which neither of the contracting parties is to exclude.

Besides, neither one is practicing. Is that a different case?

When I responded to his question, I did not know neither one was practicing. It sounded like he was non-practicing and she wanted to practice. He makes that clear in a late post. In that case, they need to speak to their pastor. The pastor will need to counsel them. If neither intends to practice, it is unlikely the pastor will proceed with the sacrament, it might be postponed.

Marriage is a natural right, so I could see why a priest wouldn’t do anything but heavily encourage that they start practicing, but yet agree to marry them.

It’s a natural right, but not an unlimited one. If they can’t validly enter a marriage, he cannot proceed.

As for knowledge and will, it seems clear that the OP and his fiance were well aware that sexual relations outside of marriage are morally forbidden, which I think is the sin the OP was refering to.

But they may not have been aware that they were not considered married.

 

[PetraG]

It’s a natural right, but not an unlimited one. If they can’t validly enter a marriage, he cannot proceed.

That is what I had thought, but in matters of law I don’t know where the limits are.

I somehow thought he was talking about confessing that they were cohabitating prior to their civil marriage; I don’t know why. (Actually, at the beginning I thought they weren’t even civilly married–I’m not reading very carefully!!) I get the impression that the wife knew they weren’t married “in the eyes of the Church” but the husband might have simply not given it any thought as morally relevant one way or the other.

Yes, I would think this isn’t something that is going to come up at this point unless at least one of them wants to start practicing and to bring their children up as Catholics. That possibility is well worth discussing before the children arrive, since so many Catholics do feel moved to come back to the faith when they become parents.

Your answer seems to be that in order to have the marriage convalidated the practicing spouse would have to promise to raise the children Catholic, but the non-practicing Catholic would not. In other words, a Catholic who marries a non-practicing Catholic does not have a higher standard to meet than the Catholic who marries a non-Catholic. Is that the essential situation?

 

[PetraG]

Just wondering if it’s even possible to get married in the church, given the circumstance. Not asking for relationship advice, we are pretty good on that front.

I owe you a big apology; for some reason when you refered to your wife I took you to mean that in the future tense. I got it in my head that you were contemplating marriage not that you were already civilly married! Sorry about that!!! That’s what all the Engaged Encounter stuff was about. The procedure is different for two Catholics who have been civilly married who go to a priest about getting married in the eyes of the Church than it would be for two Catholics who have been living together without any marriage vows at all.

 

[1ke]

Your answer seems to be that in order to have the marriage convalidated the practicing spouse would have to promise to raise the children Catholic, but the non-practicing Catholic would not. In other words, a Catholic who marries a non-practicing Catholic does not have a higher standard to meet than the Catholic who marries a non-Catholic. Is that the essential situation?

yes. that is what i am saying.

 

[InThePew]

Thanks for your answer. She is non-practising, together with me, has some stronger affinity to it, more of a positive history with it than I do, but also issue with it on her own. She expressed a wish “to get married in the church”. As far as I understand that would entail all the sacramental preparation, including a promise to bring any future children up catholic. We are both Catholic “on record”, with slightly different outlooks on it, but neither of us knows how to get married in the church.

You’d hardly be the first couple where one party wanted to get married “in the church” and the one was indifferent about it. You’d also hardly be the first couple in this situation where both parties were baptised but non-practising. The desire to get married in a religious ceremony (instead of say in a “pretty” church) can sometimes be the first step towards getting your faith back on the right track. In this way, marriages are often an opportunity for evangelisation (albeit one that’s often overlooked). I’d also note that marrying outside of the Church isn’t necessarily sinful (it really depends on your reasons and attitude at the time). Tbh I’d advise you to meet with a priest and discuss your situation and take it from there - you might be surprised where it takes you!

 

[Used2beSherryG]

no, a priest would not marry you or give a sacramental blessing to your marital union if you have no intention of bring up any children as Catholics. Best to go and talk to a priest of course, but the whole idea is totally pointless if you are not planning to abide by church teachings. It would make a mockery of the sacrament.

 

[paspec]

Thank you all for your detailed answers! On balance, it seems there are two points that crystallized:

1. Talk to a priest about it
2. A Catholic wedding seems pointless, given the circumstance of at least one of the couple being unwilling to return to the faith/bring the children up Catholic.

Thanks for your opinions, folks! P

 

[PetraG]

Thank you all for your detailed answers! On balance, it seems there are two points that crystallized:

1. Talk to a priest about it
2. A Catholic wedding seems pointless, given the circumstance of at least one of the couple being unwilling to return to the faith/bring the children up Catholic.

Thanks for your opinions, folks! P

Yes, talk to a priest if your wife is interested in getting married in the Church. It would help her to have peace about whatever you decide far more than our discussion here. I’m sure that is the most important thing to you at this point. If you call your diocese and tell them your address, they can tell you what your geographic parish is, where you have a right to the sacraments (provided you are properly disposed to recieve them). Unless you have a personal friend who is a priest to talk to, that’s where I’d start.

 

[paspec]

Thank you for your consideration and suggestions. My wife has the necessary contacts within our diocese, as this is where she got her annulment of her previous marriage from (another interesting detail, I know lol). We will consult the relevant people as and when the need arises. Thanks again!