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kaycee
Guest
Thats the good news? A significantly large list of requirements?
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jmcrae
Guest
I tend to think of it as a significantly large list of gifts, actually.
What is required depends on the individual - to whom much is given, from him, much is expected. Jesus said that - it was the lesson of the Parable of the Talents. With great gifts come great responsibilities. Ultimately, we are saved by God’s grace, but all of these things are means to receive God’s grace.
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NickB
Guest
Your post always seem to imply that faith and faith alone is all that is required from your scripture post and that for some reason you have failed to read in all the threads that deal with this topic, that Catholics believe that we are justified by Faith, but not by faith alone, and when the subject of the necessasity of baptism is broached and then supported from scripture…you, dismiss the citation and post some scripture that you feel some how dismisses the other scripture citations, this is where you fall into an either or theology, where as the catholic postion does not take an either or position, but a fuller and broader perspective in how one is to be justified, let me repeat what and how Catholics believe Yes, we as Catholics believe that we are justified through faith in Jesus Christ, but not by faith alone, and this is scriptural. But, if you are going to tell me that a person is justified by Faith Alone, you must show me in scripture where this is said, not implied, but specific scripture that say’s a person is saved or justified by faith alone, the only place it is said in scripture is in James 2:24, “See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone”. Hear are a few other means by which scripture say’s we can gain salvation, eternal life, new birth, justification.
By believing in Christ (Jn 3:16; Acts 16:31)?
By Repentance (Acts 2:38; 2 Pet 3:9)?
By Baptism (John 3:5; Acts 2:38; 22:16; 1 Pet 3:21; Titus 3:5)?
By the work of the Spirit (Johnn 3:5; 2 Cor 3:6)?
By declaring with our mouths (Luke 12:8; Rom 10:9)?
By coming to a knowledge of the Truth (1 Tim 2:4; Heb 10:26)?
By Works (Rom 2:6, 7; James 2:21, 24-25)?
By Grace (Acts 15:11; Eph 2:8)?
By His blood (Rom 5:9; Heb 9:22)?
By His righteousness (Rom 5:17; 2 Pet 1:1)?
By His cross (Eph 2:16; Col 2:14)?
Can we cut any one of these out of the list and proclaim it alone as the means of salvation? Can we be saved without faith? without God’s grace? without repentance? without baptism? without the Spirit? These are all involved and necessary; not one of them can be dismissed as a means of obtaining eternal life. Neither can one be emphasized to the exclusion of another. They are all involved in salvation and entry into the Church. The Catholic Church does not divide these various elements of salvation up, overemphasizing some while ignoring others; rather she holds them all in their fullness.
By believing in Christ (Jn 3:16; Acts 16:31)?
By Repentance (Acts 2:38; 2 Pet 3:9)?
By Baptism (John 3:5; Acts 2:38; 22:16; 1 Pet 3:21; Titus 3:5)?
By the work of the Spirit (Johnn 3:5; 2 Cor 3:6)?
By declaring with our mouths (Luke 12:8; Rom 10:9)?
By coming to a knowledge of the Truth (1 Tim 2:4; Heb 10:26)?
By Works (Rom 2:6, 7; James 2:21, 24-25)?
By Grace (Acts 15:11; Eph 2:8)?
By His blood (Rom 5:9; Heb 9:22)?
By His righteousness (Rom 5:17; 2 Pet 1:1)?
By His cross (Eph 2:16; Col 2:14)?
Can we cut any one of these out of the list and proclaim it alone as the means of salvation? Can we be saved without faith? without God’s grace? without repentance? without baptism? without the Spirit? These are all involved and necessary; not one of them can be dismissed as a means of obtaining eternal life. Neither can one be emphasized to the exclusion of another. They are all involved in salvation and entry into the Church. The Catholic Church does not divide these various elements of salvation up, overemphasizing some while ignoring others; rather she holds them all in their fullness.
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mikeledes
Guest
When the Bible says that you are saved through faith or by believing, it is using shorthand because the assumption is that the person will be baptized. For example, in order to use the subway in New York City, you have to buy what is called a Metrocard. The fare is $2.00. If I said you need a metrocard in order to use the subway, I am not saying that a metrocard with no money in it is going to work. You need to have a metrocard with money in it. In other words, by saying “you need a metrocard in order to use the subway,” it presuposes that the metrocard has to have money. Similarly, when the Bible says you need to believe in order to be saved, it presupposes that the person will get baptized.
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mikeledes
Guest
I would like to see Kaycee address the verse in which Jesus responded that in order to gain eternal life you have to follwo the commandments. I would also like to see him respond to the verse I quoted in Romans. He keeps giving other verses, but does not respond to the verses in question.
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kaycee
Guest
1 Pet 3:21
Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you–not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience–through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
How do you know that water means the rite of baptism? And if it is baptism, how do you know that it is the cause, rather than the sign, of regeneration? You are simply assuming that it refers to baptism. However, there are no compelling reasons why it must have that meaning and there are strong arguments against such an interpretation. Water is often used in Scripture to signify spiritual cleansing by the Word and the Spirit. So “water” could be referring to the inward work of the Holy Spirit by His Word, cleansing the soul, rather than the rite of baptism.
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jmcrae
Guest
Because it says “Baptism” right there in the verse.
The Rite of Baptism (baptize = to immerse or cover with water) is how the Holy Spirit cleanses the soul.
The water of baptism isn’t “symbolic water” (with what do we “symbolize” water?) - rather, real water is the symbol that shows us the cleansing action of the Holy Spirit. But without real water, we don’t have the symbol that shows us the real action of the Holy Spirit.
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kaycee
Guest
Peter explains himself. Negatively, baptism does not save because water is applied to the body: “not the removal of the filth of the flesh.” Water can only cleanse the flesh outwardly; it does not cleanse the heart from sin. Positively, **baptism saves because it follows a personal response to God as indicated by the phrase “the answer of a good conscience toward God.” **
The Bible usually uses such terms as “believe,” “repent,” and “call upon” to describe this personal response to God. It is that aspect of baptism (what is signified, “the answer of a good conscience toward God”) rather than the external rite (the sign, the application of water) that saves. In this sense, we affirm that baptism saves.
A wedding ring is a good analogy. Strictly speaking, the husband is united to his wife because of the marriage vows rather than the ring. Yet since the latter is the sign of their union, it is natural to speak of the ring to mean the reality it represents. He is married because he wears a marriage ring.
So, when we say that baptism saves us, we do not mean that the sacrament saves us apart from faith in Christ; we mean that baptism signifies our salvation by faith in Christ.
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mikeledes
Guest
1 Peter 3:20 ends by saying that the eight souls were “saved through water.” Verse 21 makes it clear that this prefigured baptism. Hence, he is talking about water baptism. Secondly, the part where its says “not the removal of dirt from the flesh” is not saying that he is not talking about water baptism. Rather, he is saying that it is not the water itself that saves you, but God working through the water.
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Mickey
Guest
*Gen 1:2 *The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters.
Water and the Holy Spirit have been mystically connected since the beginning of time.
Water and the Holy Spirit have been mystically connected since the beginning of time.
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kaycee
Guest
Think of Paul’s argument in Romans 3 and 4. He uses Abraham as an example of justification by faith. At least for Abraham, faith was sufficient to justify him (Abraham was never baptised, and he was justified by faith before he received the sign of circumcision). Moreover, since Paul uses Abraham as a model for all of us (in New Testament times), it is impossible to deny the saving efficacy of faith even before it is accompanied by good works and rituals.
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jmcrae
Guest
But he did receive the sign of circumcision. So did every one of his male decendants. Also, take a look at what he was doing when he was “saved by faith.”
Was he thinking, “Hey, wouldn’t it be nice to believe that there is One True God who is our Creator? I think that from now on, I will believe that this is so.” No - he was making a blood sacrifice to the One True God.
He figured out (by God’s grace) that God existed, but that wasn’t the end of it for him. Once he figured out that God existed, he responded in faith by doing an action - the sort of an action that one does in response to a God - his “faith alone” was to make a ritual sacrifice to God, to see what transpired. God indeed heard him, and gave him the covenant of circumcision.
Do you think that if Abraham had just sat there on his bed thinking “Yes, there is a God” and then just rolled over and gone back to sleep, without making any kind of response to this information other than “just believe it”, that he would have received the covenant of circumcision?
Abraham also shows us that we need to respond to what we know by faith - that we need to act on it, and take it to the next level.
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LSK
Guest
Actually that is not completely accurate - those who brought their entire households to be Baptized were committing them to the New Covenant in much the same manner as Jewish Parents committed their sons to the Old Covenant through circumcism (pls excuse my poor spelling). If one believes the Bible then one must assume that an entire household would include all members - even those not yet old enough to profess their belief in Jesus Christ.
To be Baptized is the first step toward being born again as it washes away the Original Sin and any sins committed before Baptism. To simply say “I believe” means little, as Satan believes in Jesus. To simply say, once, ‘I repent’ means little unless followed by a life and works of love because the Bible tells us we must persevere to the end, and that not all who say “Lord Lord” will enter into Heaven.
But that is only if one believes in the Bible, as Catholic’s do.
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kaycee
Guest
Not sure what your arguing about here. Abraham was saved by Faith. All those who are saved by Faith will produce fruit of good works, but its not the works that saved, its the Faith.
Abraham was saved by Faith with out anything else, including circumsision or baptism.
Seems like your rehashing the book of James.
Eph 2:8-10
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
We were saved to do good works. The good works dont save us, they are the mark of a true believer.
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jmcrae
Guest
Last time I looked, the Book of James was in the Bible.
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jmcrae
Guest
Abraham was saved by active, responding faith. Getting up in the middle of the night and making sacrifices kind of faith.
Abraham was not an “easy believer” - not by a long shot.
Nor is St. Paul saying that Abraham was an easy believer – rather, when asked what Christian faith looks like, he said, “Look at Abraham.” That’s the kind of faith that we as Christians must have - faith that gets out of bed in the middle of the night and starts making sacrifices. Not easy-believism.
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mikeledes
Guest
Kaycee, do you believe that when we are justified through faith we receive forgiveness of sins and the Holy Spirit? If you do, then why does Peter connect baptism and the gift of the Holy Spirit in Acts 2:38:
“Then Peter said to them, ‘Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit’.”
Also, reread Acts 19:1-6. They “believed” but did not receive the Holy Spirit until Paul baptized them and placed his hands on them. You might say, they did not receive the Holy Spirit at baptism. Let’s say, for argument sake, that were true. However, they did not receive it when they believed either. Rather, they recieved it after a ritual was performed, the laying on of hands. The moment you are born again in the Spirit, you’re justified, right? But in this case, they are justified after a ritual is performed. Like Apollos before them (Acts 18:25-28), they had faith in Jesus Christ, but only received the Holy Spirit and were justified after being Baptized and receiving the Laying on of Hands. Moreover, the questions Paul ask in verses 2 and 3 make it clear that baptism includes the reception of the Holy Spirit.
God Bless
“Then Peter said to them, ‘Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit’.”
Also, reread Acts 19:1-6. They “believed” but did not receive the Holy Spirit until Paul baptized them and placed his hands on them. You might say, they did not receive the Holy Spirit at baptism. Let’s say, for argument sake, that were true. However, they did not receive it when they believed either. Rather, they recieved it after a ritual was performed, the laying on of hands. The moment you are born again in the Spirit, you’re justified, right? But in this case, they are justified after a ritual is performed. Like Apollos before them (Acts 18:25-28), they had faith in Jesus Christ, but only received the Holy Spirit and were justified after being Baptized and receiving the Laying on of Hands. Moreover, the questions Paul ask in verses 2 and 3 make it clear that baptism includes the reception of the Holy Spirit.
God Bless
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NotWorthy
Guest
Yes, Abraham’s faith was evidenced in his obedience. If God had told him to get baptized, he’d be jumpin’ in the nearest river. But God didn’t tell Abraham… He told us that Baptism is necessary for our Salvation.
That’s good enough for me!!!
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kaycee
Guest
Who ever said I was talking easy believism. Good works are motivated by a saving Faith. A True believer will always produce good works! We dont put the cart before the horse. A saving faith produces works! Works yes, but not for salvation!
Eph 2:8-10
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sara888
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**
I am just wondering how your statement here makes any kind of sense.? If a true Christian or believer is required to produce works as taught and preached by Christ to obey his commandments, how is it that works are essential to faith, yet have nothing to do with ones salvation…??
They cannot be seperated., as commandment keeping is required by a true follower with faith.
Jan**
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