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jeannetherese
Guest
Regarding confession, the use of the confessional in the church (as opposed to a confession room) might also be considered.
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fin
Guest
True. It protects both parties. Child from abuse, good priest from false accusations.
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fin
Guest
Ralph Martin penned a thoughtful letter:
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jeannetherese
Guest
These men are fallen, as are we all. They need to be removed from positions in which they are in the presence of children. I pray for them and for their victims. May all win the victory in Christ. Amen.
Hi Phillip,
I think my attitude is that promoted by our faith. We do want everyone to get to heaven and realize all are fallen and in need of salvation.
Yes, some sins are bigger than others, some are mortal. I am not trying to discount the gravity of these sins. I do support measures to deliver sinners from temptation: prudence in being alone, screening of candidates during vocation discernment, removal of those who have failed in this area from relations with the public. In my mind, this would, of course, already include those who have been prosecuted and found guilty and been imprisoned.
Praying for sinners is something we are called to do. Our responsibilities to each other do not end when sin happens.
My attitude does not cause people to molest children. This is their choice and they must take responsibility for choosing to sin. I pray that they may see the error of their ways and seek God’s forgiveness in the confessional and go and sin no more, even as I pray for those they have harmed.
May all be fit for the kingdom at the final judgement.
Amen.
Hi Phillip,
I think my attitude is that promoted by our faith. We do want everyone to get to heaven and realize all are fallen and in need of salvation.
Yes, some sins are bigger than others, some are mortal. I am not trying to discount the gravity of these sins. I do support measures to deliver sinners from temptation: prudence in being alone, screening of candidates during vocation discernment, removal of those who have failed in this area from relations with the public. In my mind, this would, of course, already include those who have been prosecuted and found guilty and been imprisoned.
Praying for sinners is something we are called to do. Our responsibilities to each other do not end when sin happens.
My attitude does not cause people to molest children. This is their choice and they must take responsibility for choosing to sin. I pray that they may see the error of their ways and seek God’s forgiveness in the confessional and go and sin no more, even as I pray for those they have harmed.
May all be fit for the kingdom at the final judgement.
Amen.
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JHFamily
Guest
They need to be put in jail for a good long time. Anyone else in the U.S. (or most of the world) that commit like crimes are punished. Victims need to start going to police departments not chanceries. What is happening now is not bringing about conversions in these men because they have nothing to lose. They need to hit rock bottom so they can reflect on their deeds, but right now, we are not allowing this to happen in the name of mercy.
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anon64350612
Guest
So if I am found liable for money damages in a civil court of law for intentional misconduct on my part, which intentional misconduct also rises to the level of criminal culpability, is it just (under the tenets of justice) for me to expect that you pay the monetary judgment imposed against me?
Now - I understand that you are expressing the expectation that we bear each other’s burdens. We can willingly take on penances in reparation for the sins of the world. Yes we should do what we freely want to do to remedy the situation.
But - in order to satisfy the demands of justice, the bishops are not in a position to expect/require that the laity pay the money damages awarded to the victims. God will not be mocked. If the bishops refuse to satisfy God’s demand for justice, and hold the proper people accountable for the money damages, God will work His justice in a way they never imagined.
I understand that sometimes it is impossible to hold the bad actors accountable. However, some of the bad actors actually have wealth that by all rights should be used to pay these awards and settlements. Further, other measures could be taken, like cutting budgets or selling property before taking up a special collection or assessments on church envelopes to pay for legal settlements and awards for damages.
Peace be with you!
Now - I understand that you are expressing the expectation that we bear each other’s burdens. We can willingly take on penances in reparation for the sins of the world. Yes we should do what we freely want to do to remedy the situation.
But - in order to satisfy the demands of justice, the bishops are not in a position to expect/require that the laity pay the money damages awarded to the victims. God will not be mocked. If the bishops refuse to satisfy God’s demand for justice, and hold the proper people accountable for the money damages, God will work His justice in a way they never imagined.
I understand that sometimes it is impossible to hold the bad actors accountable. However, some of the bad actors actually have wealth that by all rights should be used to pay these awards and settlements. Further, other measures could be taken, like cutting budgets or selling property before taking up a special collection or assessments on church envelopes to pay for legal settlements and awards for damages.
Peace be with you!
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jeannetherese
Guest
Hi luciavento,
You posed some very interesting issues for consideration. One seems to be the appropriateness or abililty of the church as an institution to separate itself from responsibility for these actions by a small number of member priests. In a civil court , when the church is sued, if a financial judgement is issued against the church (for emotional damages, for example), I do not think that the church is going to be able to say, We don’t pay that, talk to the priest who abused about making financing options. I would not expect the court to accept such an argument. I also wonder that if such an argument were to be accepted, it might have a dampening effect on the number of lawsuits and amount of damages requested as many priests have very small incomes and some religious orders take vows of poverty.
Another issue which arises is that definition of church. Oftentimes on CAF, members will state : “we are church”. Ought we to read this statement as we have the obligation of paying damages when church hurts others? In this case, I wonder, if we might be considering individualism vs. corporatism and our roles and responsibilities as Catholics. If we are many parts and all one body what is our obligation when offense is given, or when the body is sued? Without discounting the very real problem of sexual sin, I am also cognizant that all of us, Catholic and non-Catholic are fallen and that there will be unjustifiable lawsuits over varying issues as well as well-founded lawsuits with varying amounts of damages awarded or not awarded. Is my obligation to Holy Mother Church an obligation at all times? How ought it to be fulfilled? Who makes that determination and on what grounds should it made? This brings me back to ideas concerning individualism and corporatism.
And always, there is the the call to align our will with that of our Creator who gave us the barque of Peter. The world and its interests vs. His will be done-it is a big challenge.
I’m kind of thinking out loud without any solid answers for you, but I very much appreciate the questions you have raised. May God bless you and all who visit this thread.
Amen.
jt
You posed some very interesting issues for consideration. One seems to be the appropriateness or abililty of the church as an institution to separate itself from responsibility for these actions by a small number of member priests. In a civil court , when the church is sued, if a financial judgement is issued against the church (for emotional damages, for example), I do not think that the church is going to be able to say, We don’t pay that, talk to the priest who abused about making financing options. I would not expect the court to accept such an argument. I also wonder that if such an argument were to be accepted, it might have a dampening effect on the number of lawsuits and amount of damages requested as many priests have very small incomes and some religious orders take vows of poverty.
Another issue which arises is that definition of church. Oftentimes on CAF, members will state : “we are church”. Ought we to read this statement as we have the obligation of paying damages when church hurts others? In this case, I wonder, if we might be considering individualism vs. corporatism and our roles and responsibilities as Catholics. If we are many parts and all one body what is our obligation when offense is given, or when the body is sued? Without discounting the very real problem of sexual sin, I am also cognizant that all of us, Catholic and non-Catholic are fallen and that there will be unjustifiable lawsuits over varying issues as well as well-founded lawsuits with varying amounts of damages awarded or not awarded. Is my obligation to Holy Mother Church an obligation at all times? How ought it to be fulfilled? Who makes that determination and on what grounds should it made? This brings me back to ideas concerning individualism and corporatism.
And always, there is the the call to align our will with that of our Creator who gave us the barque of Peter. The world and its interests vs. His will be done-it is a big challenge.
I’m kind of thinking out loud without any solid answers for you, but I very much appreciate the questions you have raised. May God bless you and all who visit this thread.
Amen.
jt
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anon64350612
Guest
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anon64350612
Guest
Why Don’t the Priests Blow the Whistle?
From the Pastor: Why Don’t the Priests Blow the Whistle? One question that was asked after last week’s homily was, “Why don’t ‘good’ priests and ‘good’ bishops...
www.epiphanytampa.com
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anon64350612
Guest
And then this comment after the above^
Avatar
"Fr. RP Mod • 15 hours ago
Let me say this, and please everyone pay attention to it for it is very real and a serious problem: Active sodomites in the clerical order often seek out a non sodomite orthodox priest for confession, with the sole intention of binding him to silence about them and their activities. They are not seeking to truly repent, they are effectively shutting him up permanently about their evil activities.
I have never seen this mentioned or reported anywhere, but it is very real. And it’s one of the reasons why many ‘good’ priests and bishops are silent when it comes to specific clerics and their grievous sins. For they have been manipulated via the sacrament of penance to permanent silence on certain members of the clergy. And this is also how many of these deviants make it through seminary.
My advice to all good priests is that if a cleric wants to come to confession to you and you have any doubts or suspicions about them that are serious, then you must refuse to hear their confession. Don’t get manipulated by these vile men! If you don’t know them then refer them to someone else! And I promise you, every priest who has been around for a couple of years or more, and is known to be solidly orthodox, knows by experience what I am saying is true."
Avatar
"Fr. RP Mod • 15 hours ago
Let me say this, and please everyone pay attention to it for it is very real and a serious problem: Active sodomites in the clerical order often seek out a non sodomite orthodox priest for confession, with the sole intention of binding him to silence about them and their activities. They are not seeking to truly repent, they are effectively shutting him up permanently about their evil activities.
I have never seen this mentioned or reported anywhere, but it is very real. And it’s one of the reasons why many ‘good’ priests and bishops are silent when it comes to specific clerics and their grievous sins. For they have been manipulated via the sacrament of penance to permanent silence on certain members of the clergy. And this is also how many of these deviants make it through seminary.
My advice to all good priests is that if a cleric wants to come to confession to you and you have any doubts or suspicions about them that are serious, then you must refuse to hear their confession. Don’t get manipulated by these vile men! If you don’t know them then refer them to someone else! And I promise you, every priest who has been around for a couple of years or more, and is known to be solidly orthodox, knows by experience what I am saying is true."
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