No cease fire for Hamas

[gilliam]

GAZA CITY (AFP) - Palestinian Islamist militant movement Hamas said that it was not bound by the ceasefire announced by Palestinian leader Mahmud Abbas at a Middle East peace summit in Egypt.

Abbas’s declaration “expresses only the position of the Palestinian Authority (news - web sites). It does not express the position of the Palestinian movements,” said Hamas spokesman Mushir al-Masri. In Beirut, Hamas spokesman Osama Hamdaneh said the ceasefire pledge “does not commit the Palestinian resistance.”

(Excerpt) Read more at story.news.yahoo.com …

 

[jlw]

How. Am. I. Not. Suprised?

 

[Richardols]

gilliam:

GAZA CITY (AFP) - Palestinian Islamist militant movement Hamas said that it was not bound by the ceasefire announced by Palestinian leader Mahmud Abbas at a Middle East peace summit in Egypt.

Fine, if its only their posturing. But, I believe that Abbas is serious about the peace process and will honestly enforce the ceasefire. He must succeed for the sake of Palestine.

 

[Lance]

If the Palestinians want peace they will turn the Hamas members into Abbas and he will prosicute them. I am not going to hold my breath for this to happen. I think a large portion of Palestinians want to overthrow Israel and take all the land.

 

[gilliam]

Lance:

If the Palestinians want peace they will turn the Hamas members into Abbas and he will prosicute them. I am not going to hold my breath for this to happen. I think a large portion of Palestinians want to overthrow Israel and take all the land.

Hamas is more popular with the Palestinians than Abbas is.

 

[Franze]

Mazen wants to win the war against Israel with children, and HAMAS must be stopped because the population weapon is more powerful and nice, it´s like an intoxication with CO, more sweet death , greetings

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

Richardols:

Fine, if its only their posturing. But, I believe that Abbas is serious about the peace process and will honestly enforce the ceasefire. He must succeed for the sake of Palestine.

Abbas may be serious about the peace process. Hamas is serious about driving the Israelis into the ocean and watching them all drown.

 

[Ghosty]

To be fair, the Palestinian Authority doesn’t have the resources to punish Hamas. They don’t have the prisons, the courts, or the police forces for such a job, and they never have. All demands that have hinged on the PA suppressing Hamas have been doomed from the start. Hamas has more money, more recruits, and a much wider range of operation than the PA has. It’s one of the supreme ironies of Israel not supporting the PA more.

Many Palestinians like Hamas, but not because of its war with Israel per se. Hamas has more money to contribute to schools, food, shelter, and general civic improvement than the PA ever has (no thanks the Arafat’s corruption). The Palestinians have basically had a choice between an ineffective figure head who squanders their money while making promises, or a very effective force for social relief that also just happens to run a genocidal terrorist campaign.

Personally I think we have reason to hope that with Arafat gone, the corruption in the PA will be much less, and it will actually be able to win back the support of the Palestinian people by being a real government, rather than a man with a microphone who’s locked in his basement (while his family lives in luxury in France). This might also be a first step in a true joint effort by Israel and Palestine to wipe out Hamas, if Abbas plays his cards right of course.

 

[Lance]

Ghosty:

To be fair, the Palestinian Authority doesn’t have the resources to punish Hamas. They don’t have the prisons, the courts, or the police forces for such a job, and they never have. All demands that have hinged on the PA suppressing Hamas have been doomed from the start. Hamas has more money, more recruits, and a much wider range of operation than the PA has. It’s one of the supreme ironies of Israel not supporting the PA more.

Many Palestinians like Hamas, but not because of its war with Israel per se. Hamas has more money to contribute to schools, food, shelter, and general civic improvement than the PA ever has (no thanks the Arafat’s corruption). The Palestinians have basically had a choice between an ineffective figure head who squanders their money while making promises, or a very effective force for social relief that also just happens to run a genocidal terrorist campaign.

Personally I think we have reason to hope that with Arafat gone, the corruption in the PA will be much less, and it will actually be able to win back the support of the Palestinian people by being a real government, rather than a man with a microphone who’s locked in his basement (while his family lives in luxury in France). This might also be a first step in a true joint effort by Israel and Palestine to wipe out Hamas, if Abbas plays his cards right of course.

The mentality that says, “We are poor Palestinians who need to be taken care of by someone” is what they have to give up. If they give up their support of Hamas and work on building their own country where they are not dependant on handouts from other countries or their government, they will find that their lives will improve and they can take care of themselves. They may need help to get started but need to start weaning themselves from depending on others to help them. They have lived in camps for over 50 years, it is time for them to take control of their own lives. It will not be easy but they can do it if they want to.

 

[Michael_C]

Then this means the Palestinian authorities first priority is to deal with Hamas. There can be no peace while extremists are blowing up civilians.

 

[Norwich]

Lance:

The mentality that says, “We are poor Palestinians who need to be taken care of by someone” is what they have to give up. If they give up their support of Hamas and work on building their own country where they are not dependant on handouts from other countries or their government, they will find that their lives will improve and they can take care of themselves. They may need help to get started but need to start weaning themselves from depending on others to help them. They have lived in camps for over 50 years, it is time for them to take control of their own lives. It will not be easy but they can do it if they want to.

Wonderful idea, lets everyone stop supporting Palestine and then it will have to make its own future. Brilliant. Do you think America should do the same for Israel?

 

[bapcathluth]

It’s very important that America and the rest of the world support the Palestinian authority right now, and let the Palestinian people see some real change for the good with their new government. It is true that Hamas has funding and wins hearts and minds by providing free preschools etc.

Unfortunately, when the second intifada began, many of the joint economic development projects that had just started off the ground
fell through. This hurt both Israel and the Palestinians, but it really devestated any hope for a Palestinian economy. We must help those people see the hope that peace can bring. Only then will they stop supporting Hamas.

 

[Matt25]

Lance:

. If they give up their support of Hamas and work on building their own country where they are not dependant on handouts from other countries or their government, they will find that their lives will improve and they can take care of themselves. **They may need help to get started **but need to start weaning themselves from depending on others to help them.

To build a country you have to have a country. Palestinians are under Israeli Occupation. Their land, the Gaza Strip, West Bank and East Jerusalem is not contiguous nor under the effective control of any single body except the Israeli Defence Force IDF.

There is a wall snaking its way down the West Bank, supposedly for security reasons, which separates villages from their farms. Water supplies are exclusively in the hands of Israel. Most illegal settlements are in strategically significant locations and act to divide and partition Palestinian land into policeable cantons.

To meet the needs of the illegal settlers in the illegal settlements in the illegally occupied territories new roads, which only Israeli’s can use have been built, without compensation across Palestinian lands and houses.

Yes it is possible they may need outside help. And yes how surprising is it that some Palestinians have reacted to all this by turning to extremist responses. Just like some Americans might do under similar circumstances.

By the way I can understand Protestants being so pro-Zionist but don’t you guys realise that a sizeable minority of Palestinians are Catholic. So when you condemn and sneer at the Palestinians you are attacking our sisters and brothers in faith.

 

[cestusdei]

I was at the wall. Why is it there? Because Palestianian suicide bombers were routinely blowing up Israeli buses. That has happened much since the wall went up. The moral of the story? Stop terrorism and you won’t have walls going up. Simple.

I believe that Abbas does want to try for peace. However Hamas does not. In fact some of them want to take back everything that was once Muslim. They mention Spain and Sicily as examples. Hard to reason with people like that.

 

[Matt25]

cestusdei:

I was at the wall. Why is it there? Because Palestianian suicide bombers were routinely blowing up Israeli buses. That has happened much since the wall went up. The moral of the story? Stop terrorism and you won’t have walls going up. Simple.

So why does it follow a line that inludes large chunks of the West Bank, including water sources, instead of the pre-1967 border? It would serve the same security purposes and would not divide villages from their own fields.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

They seem to forget that the areas they consider “once Muslim” were prior to that, once Christian, and before that, once pagan. Maybe the Druids should start a holy war on all of Europe to reclaim their land.

cestusdei:

I was at the wall. Why is it there? Because Palestianian suicide bombers were routinely blowing up Israeli buses. That has happened much since the wall went up. The moral of the story? Stop terrorism and you won’t have walls going up. Simple.

I believe that Abbas does want to try for peace. However Hamas does not. In fact some of them want to take back everything that was once Muslim. They mention Spain and Sicily as examples. Hard to reason with people like that.

 

[Matt25]

Scott_Lafrance:

They seem to forget that the areas they consider “once Muslim” were prior to that, once Christian, and before that, once pagan. Maybe the Druids should start a holy war on all of Europe to reclaim their land.

Who, on this thread talked about land that was “once Muslim”?

We are talking about land currently inhabited by Palestinians, most of whom are Muslim though some are Catholic.

Altough the land is inhabited by Palestinians it is occupied by the IDF and illegal, armed settlers. This is not good, either for Palestinians or for Israeli’s. This should be resolved justly and peacefully in a way that recognises the rights of all people to live in peace and security within internationally recognised boundaries.

Now tell me, in the name of God, what is anti-semitic or anti-American about holding these belief’s?

 

[Brad]

Matt25:

To build a country you have to have a country. Palestinians are under Israeli Occupation. Their land, the Gaza Strip, West Bank and East Jerusalem is not contiguous nor under the effective control of any single body except the Israeli Defence Force IDF.

Why is it “their land”? Why doesn’t Jordan, Syria, and Egypt allow these people back into their respective countries? Why is it that prior to 1948 there was never a claim to such land for “Palestinian” people that are not Jewish?

**Way back on March 31, 1977, the Dutch newspaper Trouw published an interview with Palestine Liberation Organization executive committee member Zahir Muhsein. Here’s what he said:

The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct “Palestinian people” to oppose Zionism.

For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan. **

 

[INRI]

While I am sympathetic to the plight of the Palestinians, they have squandered much of my sympathy through their actions, which are largely directed against Israeli civilians on the Israeli side of the border.

I understand that the wall is a big inconvenience for the population living there, but then again so is having a bus blown up when you’re riding it. Suicide bombing attacks have dropped off precipitously since it was erected.

I am encouraged by Abbas’s gestures, however it is clear that he doesn’t hold all the cards as far as control of the Palestinian people. It would have been nice if Arafat had used some of the $1 billion+ that he stashed away in Swiss bank accounts to help his own people. Could have built some mighty nice apartment buildings with that kind of money. Instead, Arafat directly encouraged bombing of civilians and helped to import arms into the West Bank and Gaza.

I am also not encouraged when I read articles like this one:

Some wag once put it that the Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. I’m not going to hold my breath that this latest attempt at peace is going to amount to much, especially given that PA school textbooks omit any reference to any state called “Israel” from their maps.

 

[Matt25]

Brad:

**Way back on March 31, 1977, the Dutch newspaper Trouw published an interview with Palestine Liberation Organization executive committee member Zahir Muhsein.
**

So who was Zahir Muhsein? middleeastreference.org.uk/palbiograph.html

Zuhayr Muhsin: Sec-Gen of Sa‘iqa from 1971 to 1979. b.1936, from Tulkarm. Trained as a teacher in Amman, but lost his job in Jordan due to Ba‘thist activism; then moved to Qatar, Kuwait & then Syria in 1967. As an Asad loyalist & Ba‘th party member, was appointed to head Sa‘iqa when the pro-Jadid leadership was purged. A member of the PLO-EC throughout his leadership of Sa‘iqa, he served as head of the military department. Was repeatedly promoted by Syria to become chairman of the PLO-EC whenever dissatisfied with ‘Arafat (esp during early76 clashes). Famously declared that the assertion of Palestinian identity was just a tactical manoeuvre in the struggle (Mar77 interview). **His family’s house in Tulkarm was picketed after gave support to Syria in 1976 Lebanon clashes with Palestinians. **Was assassinated in Cannes on 15Jul79.

And what is Sa iqa? globalsecurity.org/military/world/para/al-saiqa.htm

Syrian members of the Ba’athist party were among the original founders of al-Sa’iqa when it was established in 1966. Since its founding, al-Sa’iqa has backed the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO), but** its Syrian origin has occasionally hindered its support of a Palestinian state .Al-Sa’iqa is sponsored by the state of Syria.
**

Syrian General Salah Jadid was the first to lead the al-Sa’iqa organization, but he was quickly removed when rival Hafez al-Asad came to power in Syria. Mahmud al-Ma’ayta and Yusuf Zu’ayyin were also among al-Sa’iqa’s primary leaders until Hafez al-Asad supporters replaced them in November 1970. In June 1971, Zuhayr Muhsin was appointed Secretary General of the organization, and his brother Majid Muhsin later became the head of operations in Lebanon. In July 1979, Zuhayr Muhsin was assasinated in Cannes and was soon replaced by 'Isam al-Qadi. In the same year, Muhammed Khalifah became Deputy Secretary General, who also served on the Executive Committee of the PLO.

In February 1979, al-Sa’iqa was suspected for a bombing of a Sheraton Hotel in Cairo, Egypt. In June of the same year, a suspected member of al-Sa’iqa was arrested in Cairo while carrying a suitcase full of explosives. In May 1984, a former member of al-Sa’iqa was found dead in Cyprus; three Syrians were questioned and stated that the man had joined Fatah, a rival faction within the PLO.

So a Syrian agent saw the Palestinian struggle as an opportunity to great a Greater Syria. what does that prove exactly?