'No compulsion in religiion' is not true in islam

[ralphinal]

It is fair to say that in no parts of the world today can “apostates” be legally executed–that is, according to proper implementation of Shari’ah. If they are executed (and it does happen sometimes), then it is malpractice of justice, and not according Shari’ah.

Moreover, if Christians are ever targeted, or harassed, or forbidden to worship freely in a Muslim country, that is also a violation of Shari’ah.

Perhaps you don’t understand what the religion is. Leaving the religion is more than just a change of heart. It’s not like leaving your wife, leaving your school, getting a haircut, or changing your clothes. It’s pretty serious.

But since nowhere in the world today can jizya be legally levied, nor can apostates be legally executed, none of this should be an issue at all, should it?

I bet you know where I am headed with this…

If it is against the laws of Islam to be acting in this way, why are more Muslims not putting an end to it? Why don’t the American Muslims demand that the US government end aid to nations that act in such a way? Why do the more mainline Muslim nations not put political and if needed military pressure on those giving the faith a bad name?

Oh, I do like the idea of saying “mainline” instead of “moderate”

 

[Sister_Amy]

I bet you know where I am headed with this…

If it is against the laws of Islam to be acting in this way, why are more Muslims not putting an end to it? Why don’t the American Muslims demand that the US government end aid to nations that act in such a way? Why do the more mainline Muslim nations not put political and if needed military pressure on those giving the faith a bad name?

Oh, I do like the idea of saying “mainline” instead of “moderate”

The way I see the world: Corrupt dictators run “Muslim countries” oppressing the Muslims therein. This permits the US to rape and pillage these nations, so it’s in the best interests of the US government to support such corrupt dictatorships.

Muslims are not free.

Muslims have not united politically or militarily or any way even to protect themselves from oppression and persecution.

Muslims do not have the power you seem to think they have.

 

[Sister_Amy]

I don’t lie, ma’am. While you belong to a religion that tells its adherents to lie to us, it seems that maybe you should take your own advice.

If you don’t like what you hear then discuss the message. By bashing me it just tells me that you don’t have too much else.

Thanks. :clapping:

I’ve refuted your nonsensical posts, I don’t think anyone but a fool would believe the garbage you post.

Saying that nearly half the chapters in the Qur’an have been abrogated is such a notion so far beyond reality it barely even deserves a response. It’s just a lie, for which you have no proof. You have no authority to pick and choose which verses from the Qur’an you want to use to bash Islam, while ignoring everything else which disagrees with you by calling it “abrogated.” It’s just so dumb to do that, I don’t even know why I bother to reply.

 

[Sister_Amy]

That’s a cop out if I ever read one! :tsktsk: What’s considered “waging war against Islam”? Speaking against it? Openly practicing another faith where you live and used to practice Islam? Pointing out the violence in it? Criticizing Muhammad? Protesting the implementation of sharia law in one’s country? I would venture to say all kinds of excuses could be invented as to why an apostate is “waging war against Islam” and should be killed.

And is it such a “silly question” to those being killed? I think they would have a different opinion about that.

Waging war?

This phrase makes perfect sense to me. What exactly do you not understand? Maybe apostates are waging war against Islam. But my point was really just to prevent you from taking my statement out of context later on (typical for people like R_not to do, you see how she just claimed that she plans to do exactly that.)

It seems to me that none of you really understand what apostasy is in the first place. Or else you believe atheism and secularism is superior to faith. I dunno. I shouldn’t be surprised anymore, I guess, with the hatred non-Muslims exhibit towards those who sincerely believe in God and choose to worship Him only.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Are you kidding me with this note? Do you have a clue as to what is going on in the world today, especially in islam? Do you go past your cleric for any news as to what the muslims do to others? How about the kidnappings/forced conversions/rapes of girls and women? Or about the driving off the Christians in Iraq, Pakistan, and other places and stealing their lands? Or how about the killing of 7 priests in 2007-2008 alone, and this year one priest was burned to death? I can’t even tell you how many have died around this globe since 9/11 - Jews, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, etc by muslim hands JUST BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT MUSLIMS. I won’t even go into how many died before that! Just because they were not muslims.

Or how many muslims died because they were in the way of muslims trying to kill others?

This is just sick. The number of churches destroyed by muslims and according to sharia laws they cannot be rebuilt. Of course, Christians don’t need a church, but it is also the number of people that have died and you just write it off in a few sentences like it just never happened. ladedahlaalaaalaaa I mean are we talking to someone from outer space here?

Ignoring these things don’t mean they do not happen. Or is it that you truly believe that they are not human beings because they are not ‘believers’ in your god?

Ignorance surpassing all bounds. Did you even read my post?

There are certainly some very serious atrocities committed in Islam. Sometimes even committed in the name of Islam. All I’m telling you is that they are actually illegal in Islam. And try as you might, you cannot make me accept them as legal in Islam.

And I will remind you that there is no such thing as a clerical class in Islam. The word is wholly inappropriate when applied to Islam. It’s time for you to start speaking with knowledge, instead of deceiving the people.

 

[Muslim_Woman]

In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

Salaam/peace

I’ve refuted your nonsensical posts, I don’t think anyone but a fool would believe the garbage you post.

I did not visit this thread earlier because I don’t read posts of R-not anymore . I came here to read your reply. Sis , May be , it’s better if we totally ignore the posts of those Christians who are spreading lies & hatred here.

http://theislampath.com/smf/Smileys/default/barakallah.gif

 

[Jay53]

Waging war?

This phrase makes perfect sense to me. What exactly do you not understand? Maybe apostates are waging war against Islam. But my point was really just to prevent you from taking my statement out of context later on (typical for people like R_not to do, you see how she just claimed that she plans to do exactly that.)

It seems to me that none of you really understand what apostasy is in the first place. Or else you believe atheism and secularism is superior to faith. I dunno. I shouldn’t be surprised anymore, I guess, with the hatred non-Muslims exhibit towards those who sincerely believe in God and choose to worship Him only.

My understanding of apostasy is that it is the renunciation and criticism of one’s religion. Perhaps Muslims have a different understanding that requires a death sentence?

The phrase may make perfect sense to you because you have been immersed in the Islamic mindset. What is considered waging war against Islam? Speaking against it? Openly practicing another faith where you live and used to practice Islam? Pointing out the violence in it? Criticizing Muhammad? Protesting the implementation of sharia law in one’s country? Are these actions considered waging war against Islam?

 

[Sister_Amy]

In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

Salaam/peace

I did not visit this thread earlier because I don’t read posts of R-not anymore . I came here to read your reply. Sis , May be , it’s better if we totally ignore the posts of those Christians who are spreading lies & hatred here.

http://theislampath.com/smf/Smileys/default/barakallah.gif

Yeah, R_not is on my ignore list, I normally don’t read her posts. I decided to make a special exception in this thread, when I realized she was saying Al-Baqarah was abrogated.

Thanks for the tip, though. I think from now on I will take your advice inshaaAllaah.

Baarakallahu feeki, wassalaamu alaikum

 

[Sister_Amy]

My understanding of apostasy is that it is the renunciation and criticism of one’s religion. Perhaps Muslims have a different understanding that requires a death sentence?

Indeed they do.

The phrase may make perfect sense to you because you have been immersed in the Islamic mindset. What is considered waging war against Islam? Speaking against it? Openly practicing another faith where you live and used to practice Islam? Pointing out the violence in it? Criticizing Muhammad? Protesting the implementation of sharia law in one’s country? Are these actions considered waging war against Islam?

Maybe.

 

[Jay53]

Indeed they do.

How is the Islamic definition different and why is it different?

Maybe.

And you honestly don’t see anything wrong with murdering someone / taking their life for these actions? Seriously? You honestly believe this is what God wants?

 

[jakasaki]

Majmoo’ al-Fataawa, 4/257, 268)

With regard to the shar’i rulings on apostates, if the apostate does not return to Islam, he must be executed.

It was narrated that ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Mas’ood said:

the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “It is not permissible to shed the blood of a Muslim who bears witness that there is no god except Allaah and that I am the Messenger of Allaah except in one of **three **cases:

a soul for a soul (i.e., punishment for murder),

a married man or woman who commits adultery,

and** one who leaves his religion **and separates from the jamaa’ah (main body of Muslims).”

Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 6484; Muslim, 1676

It was narrated that Ibn ‘Abbaas said: the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “**Whoever changes his religion, execute him.” **

islam-qa.com
Fatwa #20060

Doesnt’ this fatwa state to kill and apostate?

 

[sedonaman]

Les définitions; toujours les définitions.

“There is no compulsion in religion.”

What does it mean? Why, anything a Muslim wants it to mean.

All these arguments back and forth with them here are just so many meaningless words because Muslims can say anything they want, true or not, as long as it advances Islam. And it’s always an advantage to Islam to have an unwary “enemy”. You want “peace”? No problem; we bring you greetings of “Salam, peace” Psssst. But it will be Islamic peace]. You want “justice”? No problem; we will give you “justice” Psssst. But it will be Islamic justice]. You want to practice another religion? No problem Psssst. But you will practice it in the next life]. And so on.

Remember MW’s claim that Mohammed sparing the lives of innocent Meccan captives he took while attacking them was an example of “forgiving” your enemies? If a better example of Orwellian newspeak exists, I’d like to know what it is.

If the statement is true that “There is no compulsion in religion,” one must always ask what the alternatives are; a sword over your head with the demand, “Convert or die!” is still technically a choice. No matter which one you choose, to the Muslim mind, the choice was yours.

“No compulsion in religion”?

Les définitions; toujours les définitions.

“You can have any color car you want, just so long as it’s black.” – Henry Ford

 

[R_not]

I’ve refuted your nonsensical posts, I don’t think anyone but a fool would believe the garbage you post.

Saying that nearly half the chapters in the Qur’an have been abrogated is such a notion so far beyond reality it barely even deserves a response. It’s just a lie, for which you have no proof. You have no authority to pick and choose which verses from the Qur’an you want to use to bash Islam, while ignoring everything else which disagrees with you by calling it “abrogated.” It’s just so dumb to do that, I don’t even know why I bother to reply.

Well, you haven’t refuted anything. You gave your opinion and now you start calling me names.

And usually when a person starts calling another a name - that is what they are.

The idea that muslims allow thugs to be in charge of them is just mindboggling. Is that what Saudi Arabia’s excuse is? or how about Egypt? Or Pakistan? Or even the Gaza? But, but I thought they had the right to vote in some of those countries? is it that they can’t rule themselves? Why is that? An inquiring mind would like to know.

Oh, here is a current article about the violence that muslims perpetrate upon the Christians

Archbishop Sleiman told reporters that while economic and political problems are major reasons for leaving, Christians in countries like Iraq and the Palestinian territories leave out of “fear of Islamic fundamentalism and being legally discriminated against” in an Islamic republic or under Shariah, the religiously based law of Islam.

By the way - all of the koran should be abrogated, as should the hadiths. Just tossed away, used as a reference for ‘how not to behave’ and learn our lessons on what a scourge on humanity islam was. Replace it. The Girl, and Boy, Scout handbooks are far superior than the koran.

In the islamic books the word ‘kill’ or ‘fight’ was mentioned 33213 times.

 

[R_not]

Yeah, R_not is on my ignore list, I normally don’t read her posts. I decided to make a special exception in this thread, when I realized she was saying Al-Baqarah was abrogated.

Thanks for the tip, though. I think from now on I will take your advice.

Putting me on your ignore list means I can pretty much get away with a lot without having to deal with you. So, go ahead.

Keep in mind that I don’t have you on my ignore list and know what you are telling others, so I can refute you without any comeback from you. thanks.

 

[sedonaman]

In the islamic books the word ‘kill’ or ‘fight’ was mentioned 33213 times.

I wonder what the Arabic word for “godfather” is.

 

[R_not]

I wonder what the Arabic word for “godfather” is.

mohammed.

 

[sedonaman]

mohammed.

 

[Sister_Amy]

How is the Islamic definition different and why is it different?

When a person became a Muslim, they pledged allegiance to the Islamic state. This is not the case anymore, but that historical angle needs to be analyzed when discussing this issue.

And you honestly don’t see anything wrong with murdering someone / taking their life for these actions? Seriously? You honestly believe this is what God wants?

Oppression is worse than slaughter.

 

[ralphinal]

The way I see the world: Corrupt dictators run “Muslim countries” oppressing the Muslims therein. This permits the US to rape and pillage these nations, so it’s in the best interests of the US government to support such corrupt dictatorships.

Muslims are not free.

Muslims have not united politically or militarily or any way even to protect themselves from oppression and persecution.

Muslims do not have the power you seem to think they have.

A billion people speaking together has power. If 80% of them want your form of Islam to be in charge, it should be no problem.

Let’s take any one of these nations where we see these problems. Say, Sudan. If 80% of the Muslims there do not want Christians and Anamists killed, or apostates executed, they should stand up and say so.

I know, they will risk death if they do so. But, aren’t some things worth that? A couple hundred years ago, a small group of men stood up to the most powerful empire of the era. We ended up with the United States. Sometimes, doing what is right is hard, but someone must do it. Sometimes you must stand when sitting is easier.

 

[dzheremi]

When a person became a Muslim, they pledged allegiance to the Islamic state. This is not the case anymore, but that historical angle needs to be analyzed when discussing this issue.

How is the idea of the Islamic state a thing of the past? Isn’t this the ultimate goal of all the Islamic fighters/terrorists around the world - to establish the worldwide Islamic government to rule us all like in the days of the Khalifat?

I understand the distinction you are making, but I think so long as the ideology is still there (and how could it not be, when it is part of Islam itself!), it is not very useful. It is like saying that since slavery is no longer legal in the United States, racism is a thing of the past…

Oppression is worse than slaughter.

This is an interesting idea, and I should think on its face, one that a Christian would agree with. After all, there are sooooo many martyrs for the faith all around the world, particularly in the Muslim-majority lands. The difference, however, is that 9 times out of 10, martyrdom is brought to the Christians’ doorstep at the hands of someone else simply because they will not convert or be extorted (remember Fathers Ragheed Ganni and Paulos Faraj Rahho, and all the others who have been killed for refusing to renounce their faith!) , while it seems that Muslims will to bring it to themselves, if it means they can free their land from “oppressors” (even in cases where those “oppressors” are other Muslims, or when the infidel governments have given the Muslims rights to autonomy so long as they do not attempt to seceede or extend their Shari’a law beyond their community).

So, yes, oppression is worse than slaughter…but self-slaughter in the process of killing others is worse than either.