'No compulsion in religiion' is not true in islam

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Reuben_J said:
These verses contradict the very nature of God that we know of. Whoever and whatever Allah is as being mentioned there, it is surely NOT God. The entity that deceives, dissolves obligations, breaks vows, hides the truth because he wants to disgrace and torture and purposely wants to lead unbelievers astray, is certainly not God. It could be anything else but certainly NOT God. The verses have put wrong representation on who and what God is.
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**Sura 3:54 "and [they] deceived and Allah deceived and Allah is the best of deceivers "

Qur’an 9:3 “Allah and His Messenger dissolve obligations.”

Qur’an 66:2 " Allah has already sanctioned for you the dissolution of your vows."

Qur’an 5:41 “Whomever Allah wants to deceive you cannot help. Allah does not want them to know the truth because he intends to disgrace them and then torture them.”

Qur’an 40:32 “O my People! I fear a Day when there will be mutual wailing. No one shall defend you against Allah. Any whom Allah causes to err, there is no guide. That is how Allah leads the skeptic astray.”**

Reuben, that was a bad translation, done on purpose. Please read the better translation below, of the verse of chapter 3 and other verses… that you have badly presented above.

Sura 3:54 "and they planned (to kill Jesus on the cross) and Allah also planned (to save Jesus from death on the cross) and Allah is the best of all the planners. "

3:55, “O Isa (Jesus), I will cause you to die a natural death (not on the cross or by the sword etc) and then I will raise you to myself ( after your death, in ranks) and I shall purify you from the allegations of your enemies and I shall cause your true followers to prevail upon your enemies till the day of judgement.”

( these were the four promises that Allah made to Jesus and they have all been fulfilled, in the correct order.)

Qur’an 9:3 " It is an announcement from Allah and His messenger that Allah and His messenger are not allied with the pagans anymore (forever, All treaties are cancelled… Muslims are not bound to follow any of their bad deeds.)

66:2 " Allah has already sanctioned for you the dissolution of your (wrong) vows. (which you make by mistake)"

Qur’an 5:41 “Whomever Allah wants to put in difficulty (temptation) he cannot be helped by any quarter. Allah does not want to purify them (their hearts)…”

Qur’an 40:32 " (And Moses said.)… O (Egyptian) People! I fear a Day for you when there will be mutual wailing. No one shall defend you (Egyptians) against Allah. Any whom Allah causes to err, there is no guide (for him). That is how Allah leads the skeptic astray."
 
Wait…Allah causes skeptics to stray? Can you explain the Islamic position on this, please? This seems like a very strange statement. In Christianity, it is Satan who is called the deceiver and the father of all lies. I don’t understand why God would be doing Satan’s job…
 
planten said:
**Sura 3:54 "and [they] deceived and Allah deceived and Allah is the best of deceivers "

Qur’an 9:3 “Allah and His Messenger dissolve obligations.”

Qur’an 66:2 " Allah has already sanctioned for you the dissolution of your vows."

Qur’an 5:41 “Whomever Allah wants to deceive you cannot help. Allah does not want them to know the truth because he intends to disgrace them and then torture them.”

Qur’an 40:32 “O my People! I fear a Day when there will be mutual wailing. No one shall defend you against Allah. Any whom Allah causes to err, there is no guide. That is how Allah leads the skeptic astray.”**

Reuben, that was a bad translation, done on purpose. Please read the better translation below, of the verse of chapter 3 and other verses… that you have badly presented above.

Sura 3:54 "and they planned (to kill Jesus on the cross) and Allah also planned (to save Jesus from death on the cross) and Allah is the best of all the planners. "

3:55, “O Isa (Jesus), I will cause you to die a natural death (not on the cross or by the sword etc) and then I will raise you to myself ( after your death, in ranks) and I shall purify you from the allegations of your enemies and I shall cause your true followers to prevail upon your enemies till the day of judgement.”

( these were the four promises that Allah made to Jesus and they have all been fulfilled, in the correct order.)

Qur’an 9:3 " It is an announcement from Allah and His messenger that Allah and His messenger are not allied with the pagans anymore (forever, All treaties are cancelled… Muslims are not bound to follow any of their bad deeds.)

66:2 " Allah has already sanctioned for you the dissolution of your (wrong) vows. (which you make by mistake)"

Qur’an 5:41 “Whomever Allah wants to put in difficulty (temptation) he cannot be helped by any quarter. Allah does not want to purify them (their hearts)…”

Qur’an 40:32 " (And Moses said.)… O (Egyptian) People! I fear a Day for you when there will be mutual wailing. No one shall defend you (Egyptians) against Allah. Any whom Allah causes to err, there is no guide (for him). That is how Allah leads the skeptic astray."
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So now you are rewriting the koran? Who has given you that authority?

Jesus is not mentioned in any of the accepted translations, and in fact they refer to the unbelievers - not Jesus.
 
Originally Posted by sedonaman:
What a laugh. When did Muslims ever come to the aid of oppressed non-Muslims?
Reply by Sister Amy:
It has been the goal of Islam from the get-go.
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Gosh, sedonaman, don’t you understand, from almost the start of Islam, muslims had to go out and oppress all non-muslims so they could come to their aid. So busy for muslims, so much oppressing to do and so much aiding the subsequently oppressed - to stay oppressed.

Islamic history as its known to most muslims is not historically factual, but rather an historical narrative, where if the facts don’t fit the narrative, then the narrative becomes the facts.
 
dzheremi said:
Wait…Allah causes skeptics to stray? Can you explain the Islamic position on this, please? This seems like a very strange statement. In Christianity, it is Satan who is called the deceiver and the father of all lies. I don’t understand why God would be doing Satan’s job…
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Al Azhar has removed the most beautiful name of allah : The Greatest of Deceivers recently, as the fact that Christians call Satan the Greatest of Deceivers was a little bit obvious as to who allah might be.

🍿
 
Agabriel said:
So now you are rewriting the koran? Who has given you that authority?

Jesus is not mentioned in any of the accepted translations, and in fact they refer to the unbelievers - not Jesus.
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He hasn’t re-written, that’s the sanitised English translation. It’s still there in Arabic. They picked up that The Greatest of Deceivers didn’t work so well in the West.
 
chrisse said:
He hasn’t re-written, that’s the sanitised English translation. It’s still there in Arabic. They picked up that The Greatest of Deceivers didn’t work so well in the West.
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That is why I downloaded a few different translations of the Quran (I have 4 of the accepted 5) because I figured they would start rewriting their ‘perfect’ word of their god. I also downloaded all the accepted translations of the hadiths.

Yes, it took me some time, but it is better than being lied to by muslims about their own texts.
 
Quote from Planten:
Sura 3:54 "and they planned (to kill Jesus on the cross) and Allah also planned (to save Jesus from death on the cross) and Allah is the best of all the planners. "
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**My contribution to this post from Planten is taken from a reliable koran… Link included for reference and all translations included for reference.

searchquran.net/quran.php?q=3**

The problem I see from #54 is that the name Jesus/Isa is only on **one **of the “translations” and since it’s in brackets, it was inserted by the “translator”. **All other translations in #54 do not use the name Jesus… **

54:
Muhsin Khan: And they (disbelievers) plotted [to kill 'Iesa (Jesus) ], and Allah planned too. And Allah is the Best of the planners.

Yusuf Ali: And (the unbelievers) plotted and planned, and Allah too planned, and the best of planners is Allah.

Pickthal: And they (the disbelievers) schemed, and Allah schemed (against them): and Allah is the best of schemers.

Shakir: And they planned and Allah (also) planned, and Allah is the best of planners.

Transliteration: Wamakaroo wamakara Allahu wallahukhayru almakireen

Sahih International: And the disbelievers planned, but Allah planned. And Allah is the best of planners.

Dr. Ghali: And they schemed, and Allah schemed, and Allah is The Most Charitable of schemers.

**Planteen, I was going to post each and every verse you have, but decided not to.

I would like to know what koran are you using and is it on line… Please provide link…

And for anyone who can read English/Arbic… Can you translate this into pure English and let me know if the name Jesus/Isa is in it…**

**Here is the Transliteration: Wamakaroo wamakara Allahu wallahukhayru almakireen **

Thanks!
 
chrisse said:
Al Azhar has removed the most beautiful name of allah : The Greatest of Deceivers recently, as the fact that Christians call Satan the Greatest of Deceivers was a little bit obvious as to who allah might be.

🍿
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yeah, that’s not one of “the 99 most beautiful names of Allah”
 
Jay53 said:
You don’t see a problem with murdering someone because they criticize Muhammad? Seriously?
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Something interesting about religious tolerance, isn’t it? Imagine all the lies people would stop spreading, all the slander that would come to an end. Interesting. At any rate, murder isn’t allowed.
I’m beginning to think you don’t actually read the posts here. The story I quoted was an Islamic government in Indonesia forcing Islamic rules on NON-MUSLIMS. If Islamic governments are supposed to be for Muslims only, why are they forcing their rules on non-muslims. Or, are you actually saying that these people should be Muslim or move?

The government is not Islamic–first of all, it’s not implementing Shari’ah fully. That’s the first problem.
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Where in the world did you get that I am praying for corruption, evil and wickedness? :confused: I’m actually praying for the spreading of Christ’s kingdom here on earth. I pray for the conversion of all sinners - that everyone, including myself and all Christians (because we can all strive to be better people) will come to know God’s love and peace through Jesus, our Savior.
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You seem to be okay with adultery–by opposing the penalty for it. You seem to be okay with violations of justice, by not enforcing God’s commands. And clearly you are in favor of the worst sin of all, by your last sentence.
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Jesus’s name is not in the verse, but the meaning is clear from the context. (Read from a few verses before.)

Want to know something interesting about Jesus’s name in the Qur’an? Sometimes he is named, and sometimes he is just called Ibn Maryam or al-Masih or the the messenger, etc.

But his name appears exactly 25 times.

The Qur’an says that the likeness of Jesus (in his birth) is that of Adam. Jesus was created without a father, and Adam was created without mother or father. (Actually, here’s the verse: The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: “Be”. And he was.)

Adam’s name (even when talking about the “Children of Adam” that includes his name) appears in the Qur’an exactly 25 times.

Jesus’s name, 25 times. Adam’s name 25 times. Neat, huh?
 
jakasaki said:
**My contribution to this post from Planten is taken from a reliable koran… Link included for reference and all translations included for reference.

searchquran.net/quran.php?q=3**

The problem I see from #54 is that the name Jesus/Isa is only on **one **of the “translations” and since it’s in brackets, it was inserted by the “translator”. **All other translations in #54 do not use the name Jesus… **
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** jakasaki, forget about name of Jesus not being in that verse. Read the verse before and the verse after that. the name of Jesus is there. So what is your problem.

It is being told in verse 3:54 “They planned.” It means there were some people who planned something. Okay. The plan is not told in that verse. They planned to do some thing. Before that verse, Jesus is found to be crying for help. His Disciples confirmed their help.

It is said that “Allah also planned.” Okay, In return, Allah also planned to do something. that must have been to thwart the plan of the enemies of Jesus.

It further says that Allah is the best of all Planners. It means that the plan of the Jews failed by the plan of Allah.

You know very well what was the plan of the Jews about Jesus. You bible is full of that. So please do not catch at the straws. Come straight. I had inserted the extra words in brackets to enlighten you all about what was the subject matter. I hope you understand now that the plan of the Jews to kill Jesus on the cross failed. That is all**.
 
I was wondering if one of the Muslims posters could respond to this.
*
I think most serious individuals who are well read in the area (Bernard Lewis comes to mind) would say that, for the most part, religious tolerance in the Islamic world was quite superior to anywhere before the advent of secularism in Europe. However despite the progressive stance of traditional Islam on religious minorities its progressiveness seems relative to the draconian practices in Christendom, true religious freedom, as seen in most modern secular republics, did not exist. Would you say the traditional fiqh has put religious minorities in a position of structural inequality to Muslims citizens? I don’t so much mean Jizyah as the court systems, prohibition on proselytizing (although Muslims proselytizing religious minorities is permitted), not being able to build a taller house than a Muslim neighbor et cetera?

I think it takes a lot of hutzpa for Christians to lecture Muslim on religious tolerance but I do think nonetheless there can be serious reservations about the position religious minorities would occupy under Islamic rule.

How would you respond to this? *
 
Sister Amy;4914951]Something interesting about religious tolerance, isn’t it? Imagine all the lies people would stop spreading, all the slander that would come to an end. Interesting. At any rate, murder isn’t allowed.
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So the ends justify the means?

And apparently you think all criticisms of Muhammad are lies? If so, then somewhere in your Islamic studies you’ve lost all objectivity.

You don’t want to call it murder, fine. So you think the taking of someone’s life (in direct violation of the Ten Commandments “Thou shalt not kill”) is OK for criticizing Muhammad?
I’m sorry, but attitudes like this are why I sometimes doubt intellectual discussions can be fruitful. How do you reason with someone who actually thinks this is OK.
The government is not Islamic–first of all, it’s not implementing Shari’ah fully. That’s the first problem.
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They are trying to implement the Islamic law of wearing the hijab on NON-MUSLIMS! Or are you actually saying that this government is in error and should not be doing this. Perhaps I don’t understand your position.
You seem to be okay with adultery–by opposing the penalty for it. You seem to be okay with violations of justice, by not enforcing God’s commands. And clearly you are in favor of the worst sin of all, by your last sentence.
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How is opposing killing someone for committing adultery mean I’m ok with that? :dts: I have no problem enforcing God’s commands - the problem is I know the commands in the Quran are not from God, so no, I don’t want barbaric penalties enforced. Jesus specifically stopped the stoning of a woman who committed adultery and said “Let him who is without sin among you be the first to cast a stone at her.” (John 8:7)

And, my last sentence was definitely NOT a sin - Jesus IS God and I will praise His name for all eternity. :highprayer::angel1:
 
Jay53 said:
So the ends justify the means?

And apparently you think all criticisms of Muhammad are lies? If so, then somewhere in your Islamic studies you’ve lost all objectivity.

You don’t want to call it murder, fine. So you think the taking of someone’s life (in direct violation of the Ten Commandments “Thou shalt not kill”) is OK for criticizing Muhammad?
I’m sorry, but attitudes like this are why I sometimes doubt intellectual discussions can be fruitful. How do you reason with someone who actually thinks this is OK.

They are trying to implement the Islamic law of wearing the hijab on NON-MUSLIMS! Or are you actually saying that this government is in error and should not be doing this. Perhaps I don’t understand your position.

How is opposing killing someone for committing adultery mean I’m ok with that? :dts: I have no problem enforcing God’s commands - the problem is I know the commands in the Quran are not from God, so no, I don’t want barbaric penalties enforced. Jesus specifically stopped the stoning of a woman who committed adultery and said “Let him who is without sin among you be the first to cast a stone at her.” (John 8:7)

And, my last sentence was definitely NOT a sin - Jesus IS God and I will praise His name for all eternity. :highprayer::angel1:
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Well one can have problems with some things in Sharia’ (as I do) and still admit that Saudi Arabia and Iran are not examples of a state run by Sharia’.

I find stoning for adultry barbaric as well. I suppose I find it odd that you would say that seeing as your God commands it in Levatical law (I beleive)
 
planten said:
** jakasaki, forget about name of Jesus not being in that verse. Read the verse before and the verse after that. the name of Jesus is there. So what is your problem.

It is being told in verse 3:54 “They planned.” It means there were some people who planned something. Okay. The plan is not told in that verse. They planned to do some thing. Before that verse, Jesus is found to be crying for help. His Disciples confirmed their help.

It is said that “Allah also planned.” Okay, In return, Allah also planned to do something. that must have been to thwart the plan of the enemies of Jesus.

It further says that Allah is the best of all Planners. It means that the plan of the Jews failed by the plan of Allah.

You know very well what was the plan of the Jews about Jesus. You bible is full of that. So please do not catch at the straws. Come straight. I had inserted the extra words in brackets to enlighten you all about what was the subject matter. I hope you understand now that the plan of the Jews to kill Jesus on the cross failed. That is all**.
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From jakasaki
54:
Muhsin Khan: And they (disbelievers) plotted [to kill 'Iesa (Jesus) ], and Allah planned too. And Allah is the Best of the planners.
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Planten, this is a translation above from Khan and it states Jesus but however, if you look at the verse [to kill 'Iesa (Jesus) ], it’s in brackets, therefore added by this person who wrote this/transcribed this verse.
Yusuf Ali: And (the unbelievers) plotted and planned, and Allah too planned, and the best of planners is Allah.
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Planten, this one above from Yusuf Ali has NO mention/translation of Jesus which is noted in Khan’s verse.
Pickthal: And they (the disbelievers) schemed, and Allah schemed (against them): and Allah is the best of schemers.
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And this one Planten, above from Pickthal again has NO mention of Jesus.
Shakir: And they planned and Allah (also) planned, and Allah is the best of planners.
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Same here Planten at the above verse.
Transliteration: Wamakaroo wamakara Allahu wallahukhayru almakireen
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What does the above say in English please??
Sahih International: And the disbelievers planned, but Allah planned. And Allah is the best of planners.
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And this one…
Dr. Ghali: And they schemed, and Allah schemed, and Allah is The Most Charitable of schemers.
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And this one as well…

Which ONE of these transcribed verses is correct? They all seem to be correct based on the different translations of the koran… are they no?

And please don’t tell me to read above and below… I’ve done that… and I am looking for clarification of this particular verse…
 
jakasaki said:
Planten, this is a translation above from Khan and it states Jesus but however, if you look at the verse [to kill 'Iesa (Jesus) ], it’s in brackets, therefore added by this person who wrote this/transcribed this verse.

Planten, this one above from Yusuf Ali has NO mention/translation of Jesus which is noted in Khan’s verse.

And this one Planten, above from Pickthal again has NO mention of Jesus.

Same here Planten at the above verse.

What does the above say in English please??

And this one…

And this one as well…

Which ONE of these transcribed verses is correct? They all seem to be correct based on the different translations of the koran… are they no?

And please don’t tell me to read above and below… I’ve done that… and I am looking for clarification of this particular verse…
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You are not say that verse is refering to something other than the situation Jesus was facing are you?
 
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