No Consciousness or Perception in Buddhist Nirvana?

[Emese]

This is all well and good my friend, so how would you know that Jesus is Divine in origin?

And what is the basis for this belief?

To my knowledge there’s no “evidence” of this in the Bible. So I’m also interested to find out where in the Bible does Jesus say that he is God. I may have missed something…

 

[Emese]

So, which religion does still exist after 1000 years that is not divine in origin?

Actually, I would propose the first call of any religion is to define what spirituality means. Then, how can one become spiritual. Then, one can assess the fruits of that spirituality. “by their fruits ye shall know them…”

The fruits can be tested to see if they are goodly fruits or not. Why would you not test the fruits?

I never said anything about mental feelings. For me, in my faith, spiritual growth equates to how one can master the non-physical virtues of love, justice, truthfulness, reverence and prayerfullness, unity, kindness, thoughtfulness, creativity, courage, detachment from worldly desires, respect, courtesy (I could go on and on)

Here’s a website that reflects how one can “practice” spirituality, so that one’s life becomes like a prayer in action:

virtuesproject.com/

I don’t believe any of these qualities/vitues/attributes are mental feelings…they are expressions of the living Word…

I believe there are many paths heading towards the same destination. A path of love and virtue is a good path.

 

[Emese]

I would be interested to hear from rossum, how achieving Nirvana results in any societal changes? Since man is organic with his environment and society in general, does such “personal” advancement give rise to any “societal” advancements; are there any teachings of the Buddha that reflect these sorts of things?

Interesting question! Yes, I’d also like to think that humanity is “evolving”, and the positive changes in the few have a “pulling force” on the rest…

 

[Leelee82]

I found out that the idea that there is no consciousness once one attains parinirvana is more of a Theravada belief. At least one Mahayana sutra–the Lotus Sutra–says that Buddhas are still conscious and interact with the world after their parinirvana.

 

[Servant19]

That is this thread and this topic. You claim Jesus is divine, and show no evidence for it. I claim that the Buddha was human, and that requires less proof.

A human Jesus is in the same position as a human Buddha. It is up to you to show a difference if you claim there is one.

rossum

And I think they are both human too, with a Divine aspect (even though the Buddha placed no emphasis on it in a climate of extreme idolatry)

LOL

…but you make a valid statement rossum

 

[Servant19]

Interesting question! Yes, I’d also like to think that humanity is “evolving”, and the positive changes in the few have a “pulling force” on the rest…

Yes!!

I too see much evidence of this, and there is valid research to indicate this too.

There are twin forces occurring in global society today, one being disintegrative, and the other integrative. Man made ideas and institutions will continue to disintegrate (like communism etc etc) the outcomes of which contribute towards the pool of integrative forces.

 

[Servant19]

To my knowledge there’s no “evidence” of this in the Bible. So I’m also interested to find out where in the Bible does Jesus say that he is God. I may have missed something…

I think verses such as John 10:30 are evidence of Jesus’ “super-human” attributes. The question, for me is, how does one interpret such statements, and how does one account for the evolving “Godliness” of Jesus from the 1st to the 4th Gospel?

I also think, especially within Catholicism, a definition needs to be given on who is the Father and who is God?

 

[Reuben_J]

The Buddha’s wife and child were part of his large extended family, so he knew that they would be looked after in his absence. Once he had attained his goal he returned home, and gave them instruction. His son became a monk, while his wife and stepmother became nuns. His mother had died shortly after his birth.

What of a man who makes arrangements for his family and then leaves home to make his fortune. When he has made his fortune he returns to his family with magnificent gifts? Is that man to be criticised?

Thanks. Didn’t know that he returned home. Guess our history lesson was minimal on this (as a kid).

Miracles are a distraction. Monks who have gained miraculous powers are instructed not to use them except in very restricted circumstances. They distract from the main task of enlightenment. Supernatural beings, such as gods, can only really offer help if they are themselves enlightened, or close to it. Basically, Buddhism ignores them.

So does that mean Buddhism do not believe in miracles and if it does, miracles serve no useful purpose?

Pure Land Buddhism, or Shin Buddhism, has a near equivalent. The merit of the Amida Buddha cannot get you to nirvana, but it can get you reborn in the Pure Land that the Amida Buddha has set up, called Sukhavati. It is much easier to get to nirvana from Sukhavati than it is to get to nirvana from Earth. D T Suzuki wrote an excellent short study on this called “Shin Buddhism”.

Rossum

Actually I was asking about graces, for example, in helping one to overcome sin since this is difficult for humans to do and with God’s grace, it is possible. Nevertheless, it is interesting to know about Sukhavati. What is it and how was it ‘set up’? Who/what is Amida Buddha?

 

[rossum]

So does that mean Buddhism do not believe in miracles and if it does, miracles serve no useful purpose?

Yes, with sufficient spiritual attainments various miraculous powers are supposedly attainable. However, exercising those powers is a distraction from following the path, so their use is definitely discouraged.

Actually I was asking about graces, for example, in helping one to overcome sin since this is difficult for humans to do and with God’s grace, it is possible.

Sin is a Christina concept, not a Buddhist one. Buddhism has neither sin, not forgiveness of sin. All it has are actions and consequences. You are advised not to take actions with consequences you do not desire.

Nevertheless, it is interesting to know about Sukhavati. What is it and how was it ‘set up’? Who/what is Amida Buddha?

The Amida Buddha is one of the ‘celestial Buddhas’. He is more of an archetype than a historical entity. Taken literally, Sukhavati is on a planet many millions of light years away, westwards. More realistically, Sukhavati is an attitude of mind towards the world we live in.

rossum

 

[EmperorNapoleon]

So does that mean Buddhism do not believe in miracles and if it does, miracles serve no useful purpose?

The Kevaddha Sutta records Buddha as saying “The only miracles that should be performed are these: when you see a man full of passion, craving and greed, and you teach him to free himself from passion, craving and greed; when you see that a man is a slave to hatred and anger and you use your powers to help him control his hatred and anger; when you come across a man who is ignorant and who cannot see the true nature of the world (everything in this world is impermanent, sorrowful and egoless) and you use your powers to help him overcome his ignorance. These are worthy ‘miracles’ you can perform.”

 

[Reuben_J]

Rossum:

Yes, with sufficient spiritual attainments various miraculous powers are supposedly attainable. However, exercising those powers is a distraction from following the path, so their use is definitely discouraged.

It seems the way you say it that a person can have miraculous power through his own effort albeit ‘with sufficient spiritual attainment’. You have to correct me if that is not what you really said.

If that is the case, I can understand that a person, 1, can abuse his power and 2, in and by itself, miracles in this situation are distractions. Unless miracles are given and decided by a higher power/being than the one who uses it, then they certainly serve no useful purpose as they can be abused.

Rossum:

Sin is a Christina concept, not a Buddhist one. Buddhism has neither sin, not forgiveness of sin. All it has are actions and consequences. You are advised not to take actions with consequences you do not desire.

Okay, thanks, got it.

Sp can it be said then that a Buddhist, since he is a mere human will take action with undesirable consequences and depending on the case may be, he will be unable to overcome that habit? For example, a compulsive gambler out of his human weakness will not stop gambling even though he knows it will result in an undesirable consequence.

Rossum:

The Amida Buddha is one of the ‘celestial Buddhas’. He is more of an archetype than a historical entity. Taken literally, Sukhavati is on a planet many millions of light years away, westwards. More realistically, Sukhavati is an attitude of mind towards the world we live in.

My dictionary says celestial is extraterrestrial. He is not a human. What about Gautama Buddha, is he a Buddha in this category? Or he becomes one in a reincarnation?

Anyway, I take it to mean that the answer to my original question, is that Sukhavati is not created by a human person. I had the impression that Buddha is human.

 

[Reuben_J]

The Kevaddha Sutta records Buddha as saying “The only miracles that should be performed are these: when you see a man full of passion, craving and greed, and you teach him to free himself from passion, craving and greed; when you see that a man is a slave to hatred and anger and you use your powers to help him control his hatred and anger; when you come across a man who is ignorant and who cannot see the true nature of the world (everything in this world is impermanent, sorrowful and egoless) and you use your powers to help him overcome his ignorance. These are worthy ‘miracles’ you can perform.”

Human power is limited except for in an exceptional case. Miracles are outside of human power. Probably it’s the definition. So what is a miracle? Is it by sole human power or divine?

 

[EmperorNapoleon]

Human power is limited except for in an exceptional case. Miracles are outside of human power. Probably it’s the definition. So what is a miracle? Is it by sole human power or divine?

Rossum is free to correct me if I am wrong, but I don’t believe Buddhists regard miracles as supernatural and they can be performed by anyone who reaches a certain stage of enlightenment through meditation. The ability to perform miracles is not bestowed upon humans by the divine and those except practical miracles (I mentioned before) are discouraged.

 

[billcu1]

It seems the way you say it that a person can have miraculous power through his own effort albeit ‘with sufficient spiritual attainment’. You have to correct me if that is not what you really said.

If that is the case, I can understand that a person, 1, can abuse his power and 2, in and by itself, miracles in this situation are distractions. Unless miracles are given and decided by a higher power/being than the one who uses it, then they certainly serve no useful purpose as they can be abused.

Okay, thanks, got it.

Sp can it be said then that a Buddhist, since he is a mere human will take action with undesirable consequences and depending on the case may be, he will be unable to overcome that habit? For example, a compulsive gambler out of his human weakness will not stop gambling even though he knows it will result in an undesirable consequence.

My dictionary says celestial is extraterrestrial. He is not a human. What about Gautama Buddha, is he a Buddha in this category? Or he becomes one in a reincarnation?

Anyway, I take it to mean that the answer to my original question, is that Sukhavati is not created by a human person. I had the impression that Buddha is human.

Amitabh’s pureland or “heaven” Dewachen is the easiest to get into I know of. Amitabh said just say my name and he will let you go. Jesus require sanctifying grace and other buddhas or bodhisattvas let you in to grow and learn after you reach a certain point here or other world systems.

 

[rossum]

It seems the way you say it that a person can have miraculous power through his own effort albeit ‘with sufficient spiritual attainment’. You have to correct me if that is not what you really said.

That is correct. The various powers, and the levels of attainment needed to activate them, are described in Chapters 12 and 13 of the Visuddhimagga.

Sp can it be said then that a Buddhist, since he is a mere human will take action with undesirable consequences and depending on the case may be, he will be unable to overcome that habit?

Not always “will”, but all too often “may”. You are correct about undesirable habits. Part of Buddhism meditation is to closely examine our habits and to avoid just such bad habits as you describe. One of the steps of the eightfold path of Buddhism is Right Effort. This comes in four parts:

• Avoid: do not start doing the wrong actions that you are not doing.
• Overcome: stop doing the wrong actions that you are already doing.
• Develop: start doing the right actions that you are not yet doing.
• Maintain: keep doing the right actions that you are already doing.

The second part, “Overcome” includes the techniques to break bad habits.

My dictionary says celestial is extraterrestrial. He is not a human. What about Gautama Buddha, is he a Buddha in this category? Or he becomes one in a reincarnation?

Anyway, I take it to mean that the answer to my original question, is that Sukhavati is not created by a human person. I had the impression that Buddha is human.

Gautama was human. The Amida Buddha may have been human in earlier lives, but he was not human when he attained Buddhahood. Humans are not the only intelligent living beings in the universe. We are not even the only intelligent material living beings in the universe. Both Hindu and Buddhist scriptures contain many different worlds and many different suns.

rossum

 

[rossum]

Rossum is free to correct me if I am wrong, but I don’t believe Buddhists regard miracles as supernatural and they can be performed by anyone who reaches a certain stage of enlightenment through meditation. The ability to perform miracles is not bestowed upon humans by the divine and those except practical miracles (I mentioned before) are discouraged.

Correct. Miracles are, in principle, possible for any human being. Training may be required. A lot of people run marathons, but in all cases training is necessary beforehand. Miracles are similar. They are a potential power of all humans.

rossum

 

[Reuben_J]

That is correct. The various powers, and the levels of attainment needed to activate them, are described in Chapters 12 and 13 of the Visuddhimagga.

Not always “will”, but all too often “may”. You are correct about undesirable habits. Part of Buddhism meditation is to closely examine our habits and to avoid just such bad habits as you describe. One of the steps of the eightfold path of Buddhism is Right Effort. This comes in four parts:

• Avoid: do not start doing the wrong actions that you are not doing.
• Overcome: stop doing the wrong actions that you are already doing.
• Develop: start doing the right actions that you are not yet doing.
• Maintain: keep doing the right actions that you are already doing.

The second part, “Overcome” includes the techniques to break bad habits.

So miracles are through human effort and only miracles that change a person into a better person is sought after but not other miracles which are distractions. There are techniques to achieve this like the eightfold path. I hope I got that right.

Gautama was human. The Amida Buddha may have been human in earlier lives, but he was not human when he attained Buddhahood. Humans are not the only intelligent living beings in the universe. We are not even the only intelligent material living beings in the universe. Both Hindu and Buddhist scriptures contain many different worlds and many different suns.

rossum

I think I have heard this part – that humans can be any beings before and after reincarnation. That there are other intelligent beings that humans can become is new.

Since a Buddha, who was human before he was a Buddha, can set up Sukhavati, he must have a ‘God-like’ ability in order to do it. Another question, is Buddha now therefore a ‘god’ or a human with supernatural power? How does Buddhists know that it was indeed Amida Buddha who did it – was there a revelation saying that it was him and if there was, who gave this revelation and to who?

 

[Reuben_J]

Correct. Miracles are, in principle, possible for any human being. Training may be required. A lot of people run marathons, but in all cases training is necessary beforehand. Miracles are similar. They are a potential power of all humans.

rossum

Just an obvious comment. Miracles mentioned here, which are obviously necessary - to change for a better person, are possible but definitely hard to achieve. Probably not many ordinary people can achieve them especially if they are habitual, inborn or as a result of abuse by other people, examples, bad childhood, raped victim and traumatic abuse.

 

[rossum]

So miracles are through human effort and only miracles that change a person into a better person is sought after but not other miracles which are distractions. There are techniques to achieve this like the eightfold path. I hope I got that right

Gods can perform miracles as well. If you want to win the lottery then praying to the Buddha is useless. A god might intervene on your behalf, or not.

That there are other intelligent beings that humans can become is new.

Are angels intelligent? Are devils intelligent? Were the Nephilim intelligent? Buddhism merely has a wider range of non-human intelligent beings to pick from.

rossum

 

[notself]

I just dropped by to say hello. It’s nice to see another Buddhism thread rolling on.

"Mere suffering is, not any sufferer is found
The deeds exist, but no performer of the deeds.
Nibbana is, but not the one who enters it,
The path is, but no wanderer is to be seen.

No doer of the deeds is found,
No one who ever reaps their fruits,
Empty phenomena roll on,
This view alone is right and true.

No god, no Brahma, may be called,
The maker of this wheel of life,
Empty phenomena roll on,
Dependent on conditions all."

• Visuddhimagga XIX