No Consciousness or Perception in Buddhist Nirvana?

[RoseMary131]

I should put on my religion **catholic/buddhist **because when I became catholic I never left buddhism. Why should I.

Now, from this one simple statement, I understand much more.

Yes, express you are Catholic/Buddhist. While there may be disagreement if it actually can “be”… it is your belief, and explains much of what you have written.

I would not have been as confused if I read your statements and read you held Catholic/Buddhist belief.

 

[rossum]

I am not speaking of absolute certainty. I am asking if you have any certainty?

So far Buddhism has scored two out of three. So far it has not let me down. That gives me reasonable justification for following it.

At the start of the path we rely entirely on faith, because we have no experience. As we progress along the path, faith is replaced by experience. We pass the landmarks we are told to expect. That increases confidence and reduces the need for faith. By the end of the path, there is no faith needed since we have accomplished our task.

Just because peace and happiness came to you doesn’t mean Nirvana is coming too.

How many people alive today have gone to heaven? How many people alive today have attained nirvana?

Since you do not know if someone actually attained Nirvana (if you do, you haven’t mentioned it so far as to how you concluded that) it seems like you are following a myth with no basis to think it true in the first place, right?

Since you do not know, and cannot know, if someone actually attained heaven it seems like you are following a myth with no basis to think it true in the first place, right?

Yes, I do understand what you are saying. But all I am asking is how would you know if someone ever attained it?

By observation, how else?

If Buddha is a normal person, what reason do you and I have to think that

1. He had any knowledge beyond what we know?
2. He came to know concepts such as Nirvana to be true states rather than some mental issue he was having?

1. His methods work.
2. People have been attaining nirvana for the past 2,500 years and are still attaining it now. There is a great deal of accumulated knowledge in the various Buddhist schools about what is, and what is not, a valid mental experience:

People long for big thrills. Peak experiences. Some people come to Zen expecting that Enlightenment will be the Ultimate Peak Experience. The Mother of All Peak Experiences. But real enlightenment is the most ordinary of the ordinary. Once I had an amazing vision. I saw myself transported through time and space. Millions, no, billions, trillions, Godzillions of years passed. Not figuratively, but literally. Whizzed by. I found myself at the very rim of time and space, a vast giant being composed of the living minds and bodies of every thing that ever was. It was an incredibly moving experience. Exhilarating. I was high for weeks. Finally I told Nishijima Sensei about it . He said it was nonsense. Just my imagination. I can’t tell you how that made me feel. Imagination? This was as real an experience as any I’ve ever had. I just about cried. Later on that day I was eating a tangerine. I noticed how incredibly lovely a thing it was. So delicate. So amazingly orange. So very tasty. So I told Nishijima about that. That experience, he said, was enlightenment.

You need a teacher like that. The world needs lots more teachers like that. Countless teachers would have interpreted my experience as a merging of my Atman with God, as a portent of great and wonderful things, would have praised my spiritual growth and given me pointers on how to go even further. And I would have been suckered right in to that, let me tell you! Woulda fallen for it hook line and sinker, boy howdy. If a teacher doesn’t shatter your illusions he’s doing you no favors at all.

Boredom is what you need. Merging with the Mind of God at the Edge of the Universe, that’s excitement. That’s what we’re all into this Zen thing for, right? Eating tangerines? Come on, dude! What could be more boring than eating a tangerine?

– Zen is Boring, Brad Warner

rossum

 

[Jaberwocky]

So far Buddhism has scored two out of three. So far it has not let me down. That gives me reasonable justification for following it.

Not really. Peace and Happiness can be achieved by a myriad of other things ranging from drugs to a surgical removal of some parts of your brain.

Nirvana and Buddhism stands or falls on what merits we have to think its true. Not on our achievement of other things it claims. Right?

At the start of the path we rely entirely on faith, because we have no experience. As we progress along the path, faith is replaced by experience. We pass the landmarks we are told to expect. That increases confidence and reduces the need for faith. By the end of the path, there is no faith needed since we have accomplished our task.

The problem here is this. It is more than possible that you are experiencing the exact same mental states Buddha experienced. But that in no way says that Buddha knew some greater truth behind these states as being Nirvana or other supernatural state.

So for all we know, Buddha thought he achieved some special state when that was just a resultant state of mind after following the steps. It is merely a state of mind like feeling a sense of Joy but has no actual true significance. After death, he might have to face some different music.

How many people alive today have gone to heaven? How many people alive today have attained nirvana?

That is exactly why one would be very unreasonable to start believing in Catholicism or Buddhism because one gets to go to heaven/Nirvana. Those places may not even be true.

You only become Christian if you feel that there is good evidence to think Christ rose from the dead and that therefore it is worth listening to him. But in the case of Buddhism, its already stated that Buddha is just a normal human being. So it would be quiet unreasonable to even think of listening to him, yes?

Since you do not know, and cannot know, if someone actually attained heaven it seems like you are following a myth with no basis to think it true in the first place, right?

If I had started to believe Christianity for the sake of heaven then certainly.

By observation, how else?

What observations tell you that someone has attained Nirvana?

1. His methods work.

So far, there is no reason to think his methods work beyond that of a good Psychologist or Therapist. The supernatural claim (the most important one) on Nirvana and other states cannot be known to work or mean anything.

1. People have been attaining nirvana for the past 2,500 years and are still attaining it now. There is a great deal of accumulated knowledge in the various Buddhist schools about what is, and what is not, a valid mental experience:

Yes, I attained it yesterday too. But my point is how do you know anyone had actually attained it in the past 2500 years? Everyone just thinks they attained it.

People long for big thrills. Peak experiences. Some people come to Zen expecting that Enlightenment will be the Ultimate Peak Experience. The Mother of All Peak Experiences. But real enlightenment is the most ordinary of the ordinary. Once I had an amazing vision. I saw myself transported through time and space. Millions, no, billions, trillions, Godzillions of years passed. Not figuratively, but literally. Whizzed by. I found myself at the very rim of time and space, a vast giant being composed of the living minds and bodies of every thing that ever was. It was an incredibly moving experience. Exhilarating. I was high for weeks. Finally I told Nishijima Sensei about it . He said it was nonsense. Just my imagination. I can’t tell you how that made me feel. Imagination? This was as real an experience as any I’ve ever had. I just about cried. Later on that day I was eating a tangerine. I noticed how incredibly lovely a thing it was. So delicate. So amazingly orange. So very tasty. So I told Nishijima about that. That experience, he said, was enlightenment.
​

Experiences of this kind cannot tell you if Nirvana is true. People who do drugs get these sort of experiences but that doesn’t mean Drugs are a window to the ultimate reality of the Universe.

So while I am 100% with you that Buddhism can give you some pretty phenomenal experiences of the sort you listed, I am not sure you have demonstrated that there is reason to think it has anything more to offer.

You need a teacher like that. The world needs lots more teachers like that. Countless teachers would have interpreted my experience as a merging of my Atman with God, as a portent of great and wonderful things, would have praised my spiritual growth and given me pointers on how to go even further. And I would have been suckered right in to that, let me tell you! Woulda fallen for it hook line and sinker, boy howdy. If a teacher doesn’t shatter your illusions he’s doing you no favors at all.

Boredom is what you need. Merging with the Mind of God at the Edge of the Universe, that’s excitement. That’s what we’re all into this Zen thing for, right? Eating tangerines? Come on, dude! What could be more boring than eating a tangerine?

I agree that you need good teachers. But we also need good students, right? Would it not be the responsibility of a student to first ask what reason there is to think a particular teacher has any expertise on a certain matter?

When asked this question, it seems to me that Buddha and many other teachers like him do not fare that well. They were merely ordinary human beings documenting their experiences and also claiming ultimate truths that there is no reason to think they are aware of.

Or am I missing something?​

 

[rossum]

Or am I missing something?

Yes. You are missing the practice of meditation.

To avoid all evil,
to cultivate good,
and to cleanse one’s mind -
this is the teaching of the Buddhas.

– Dhammapada 14:5
You can avoid evil by following the Ten Commandments. You can cultivate good by following Jesus’ commandment to, “love your neighbour as yourself”. For Christians I usually suggest, Saying the Jesus Prayer for the third, which is meditation.

I am sure you already follow the first two. I suggest that you add the third as well.

If you do then please bear in mind Bishop Ware’s warning:

“But those who have no personal contact with starets [teacher] may still practice the Prayer without any fear, so long as they do so only for limited periods - initially, for no more than ten or fifteen minutes at a time - and so long as they make no attempt to interfere with the body’s natural rhythms.”

rossum

 

[Jaberwocky]

Yes. You are missing the practice of meditation.

To avoid all evil,
to cultivate good,
and to cleanse one’s mind -
this is the teaching of the Buddhas.

– Dhammapada 14:5
You can avoid evil by following the Ten Commandments. You can cultivate good by following Jesus’ commandment to, “love your neighbour as yourself”. For Christians I usually suggest, Saying the Jesus Prayer for the third, which is meditation.

I am sure you already follow the first two. I suggest that you add the third as well.

If you do then please bear in mind Bishop Ware’s warning:

“But those who have no personal contact with starets [teacher] may still practice the Prayer without any fear, so long as they do so only for limited periods - initially, for no more than ten or fifteen minutes at a time - and so long as they make no attempt to interfere with the body’s natural rhythms.”

rossum

I am only asking why you think Buddha knows anything better than you and I about what the ultimate truth of this world is like? Do you have a reason for it?

Because so far you say it works. I have explained to you how it certainly must work in the sense that you will feel the same mental states as Buddha did by following his advise. But that does not tell you if Buddha knew the ultimate meaning behind things or whether there is an actual state known as Nirvana.

So can you shed some light on that matter?

 

[rossum]

I am only asking why you think Buddha knows anything better than you and I about what the ultimate truth of this world is like? Do you have a reason for it?

Because so far you say it works. I have explained to you how it certainly must work in the sense that you will feel the same mental states as Buddha did by following his advise. But that does not tell you if Buddha knew the ultimate meaning behind things or whether there is an actual state known as Nirvana.

So can you shed some light on that matter?

[The Buddha said:] 'It is as if, Malunkyaputta, a man is shot with an arrow thickly smeared with poison, … and the wounded man were to say “I will not have the arrow taken out until I know the caste of the man who shot it, … his tribe … his clan … his village … his height etc.” [many questions omitted here] That man would die Malunkyaputta, before he learned all that he wanted to know.

'In exactly the same way, Malunkyaputta, any one who says “I will not lead the religious life under the Blessed One until the Blessed One explains to me whether the universe is eternal, whether the universe is not eternal, whether the universe is finite, whether the universe is infinite etc.” [many questions omitted here] That person would die Malunkyaputta, before I had ever explained all this to that person.

‘The religious life, Malunkyaputta, does not depend on the dogma that the universe is eternal, nor does it depend on the dogma that the universe is not eternal etc. [many dogmas omitted here] Whatever dogma obtains there is still birth, old age, death, sorrow, lamentation, misery, grief and despair, of which I declare the extinction in the present life.’

– Cula-Malunkyovada sutta, Majjhima Nikaya 63

rossum

 

[billcu1]

Sort of. My practice is mostly Theravada, with some Soto Zen thrown in. My theory is Mahayana, Prasangika-Madhyamika. I often use the Theravada approach as an introduction to those who have little knowledge of Buddhism. Jumping straight into Nagarjuna can be disconcerting for those who do not have a grounding in the Theravada background.

I have tried some Tibetan techniques, but they didn’t work for me – I am completely rubbish at visualisation. Obviously, I read some of the more philosophically oriented Tibetan texts related the the Prajñaparamita, Nagarjuna and Chandrakirti.

Indeed. There are many useful techniques in the older forms of Christianity. I sometimes suggest the Jesus Prayer to Christians who want to try meditation.

No.

rossum

Everyone takes the buddhist vow by a Lama when they come into buddhism via Tibetan buddhism. Then your given a dharma name and the R(name removed by moderator)oche’s of your lineage give empowerments these are special blessings from them that you can pursue a given practice. Maybe you have to receive the blessing beforedoing the practice. And don’t believe the ones posted on the net. The tantras require permission.

 

[billcu1]

Where is it recorded that Jesus knew about reincarnation? (I guess its reincarnation that you are referring when you write that you (we) have all been a variety of beings and human beings.)

Do you know this because you were an avatar, the human or animal form of a Hindu god on earth?

Mainly in the people he talked to that were ready for different teachings. The church call the evil or bad ones. Religion is mainly about politics especially in the church’s history. Gnosis in particular, of course it’s always been in judaism as an oral tradition written down in the middle ages in Kabalistic writings. I am an avatar of Saravati. That doesn’t always mean you are conscious of it. Atleast until your ready. But I’m not a God in human form. I am human but an “emmanation” or extension of Sarasvati.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saraswati

Google sources are not always great

 

[rossum]

And don’t believe the ones posted on the net. The tantras require permission.

Correct. Anyone who posts a “secret tantra” on the net should not be trusted. Either they have not been sworn into the secret, and so do not know anything, or else they have been sworn into the secret and so are breaking their oath. Either way they should not be trusted.

rossum

 

[billcu1]

Correct. Anyone who posts a “secret tantra” on the net should not be trusted. Either they have not been sworn into the secret, and so do not know anything, or else they have been sworn into the secret and so are breaking their oath. Either way they should not be trusted.

rossum

Also rossum do you quite remember the greater and lesser signs of a Buddha that Shakyamuni had? I know wheel marks in the hands, webbed feet I believe and he was born knowing 60 different languages that he never learned. Maybe he learned that in the pureland of Maitreya where he came from. I know he started his path as a bull in hell pulling a cart. The bull helping him stumbled and he offered to help pick up some of the weight from that other bull. This simple act of kindness angered the demon drinving the cart so much he struck him and killed him.

 

[Jaberwocky]

[The Buddha said:] 'It is as if, Malunkyaputta, a man is shot with an arrow thickly smeared with poison, … and the wounded man were to say “I will not have the arrow taken out until I know the caste of the man who shot it, … his tribe … his clan … his village … his height etc.” [many questions omitted here] That man would die Malunkyaputta, before he learned all that he wanted to know.

'In exactly the same way, Malunkyaputta, any one who says “I will not lead the religious life under the Blessed One until the Blessed One explains to me whether the universe is eternal, whether the universe is not eternal, whether the universe is finite, whether the universe is infinite etc.” [many questions omitted here] That person would die Malunkyaputta, before I had ever explained all this to that person.

‘The religious life, Malunkyaputta, does not depend on the dogma that the universe is eternal, nor does it depend on the dogma that the universe is not eternal etc. [many dogmas omitted here] Whatever dogma obtains there is still birth, old age, death, sorrow, lamentation, misery, grief and despair, of which I declare the extinction in the present life.’

– Cula-Malunkyovada sutta, Majjhima Nikaya 63

rossum

All I am asking Rossum is

What reasons do I have to think Buddha knows anything beyond the physically observable world and the documentation of his own psychological state? You said he was just a man, correct? How does Buddha even know that his “WAY” is independent of ultimate reality if he is just a man? How does he know if his “WAY” leads something transcendent or to just a euphoric mental state?

Do you have an answer for that?

The worlds best Psychotherapist can easily make you feel happy and write advise on how to do that and then also add some transcendent claims that he or she does not know. If you were to follow it, you will tell me that “It WORKS!” because you will start seeing the results of the Psychotherapy. But for you to also believe that the transcendent claims are true because of that is unreasonable. The Psychotherapist is just a man and he cannot know anything beyond the physical world by himself.

So what reasons do you have to even begin to think that Buddha knew anything beyond his imagination and physical world?

 

[rossum]

So what reasons do you have to even begin to think that Buddha knew anything beyond his imagination and physical world?

Buddhism works. That is good enough for me.

If you want to find where a road leads, and will not accept any advice or maps about where it leads, then you will either remain ignorant of the road’s destination or you will have to follow the road to its destination and find out for yourself.

rossum

 

[Emese]

Jaberwocky,
I am not a buddhist, but I believe in reincarnation.
There’s no way of “knowing” for sure. IMO Buddha was what I would call an old soul who reached mastery, so his life as Buddha became his last life on Earth. Therefore he must know a lot more than we do as he was way ahead of us on his spiritual journey…hence he became a spiritual teacher to many.

Re. Happiness. You might perceive happiness as the physical feeling you may experience as joy? This feeling can be achieved the ways you describe below. However, we thrive to achieve “heaven” or “nirvana” which is a different kind of “happiness” I think.

 

[Jaberwocky]

Buddhism works. That is good enough for me.

If you want to find where a road leads, and will not accept any advice or maps about where it leads, then you will either remain ignorant of the road’s destination or you will have to follow the road to its destination and find out for yourself.

You are not answering the questions.

1. How do you know Buddhism “works”? What empirical information tells us that Buddhism works? That a person is now in state of Nirvana? That Buddha after death went in to Paranirvana?
2. What reason do we have to think an ordinary man such as you and me can even come to know truths that are beyond the empirically observable world and the ultimate meaning behind everything?

 

[Jaberwocky]

Jaberwocky,
I am not a buddhist, but I believe in reincarnation.
There’s no way of “knowing” for sure. IMO Buddha was what I would call an old soul who reached mastery, so his life as Buddha became his last life on Earth. Therefore he must know a lot more than we do as he was way ahead of us on his spiritual journey…hence he became a spiritual teacher to many.

Re. Happiness. You might perceive happiness as the physical feeling you may experience as joy? This feeling can be achieved the ways you describe below. However, we thrive to achieve “heaven” or “nirvana” which is a different kind of “happiness” I think.

The problem here is that the fact that Buddha had many lives before him is also an unverifiable fact. It is a transcendent claim beyond empirical verification. Buddha must therefore already prove his credibility to know things beyond physically verifiable truths in order for us to even accept his claim that he had a prior life.

As it stands, he has not really given any proof to think he is anything more special than a character like Freud. Therefore it is unreasonable to think he knows anything more than you and me regarding things beyond the physically verifiable world. For all we know, he had a great imagination and was a bit deluded. Everything that Buddha said that is empirically verifiable can be accomplished by Psychotherapy and therapeutic drugs. So the mantra that “Buddhism works” is not good reason to think the actual transcendent claims in Buddhism are true.

So we have no reason trust Buddha on things beyond verification which includes the entire concept of Reincarnation, Nirvana and Karma and other sort of things he might have invented.

But if you do know of some actual reason to think Buddha knew more, you can present your evidence and we can look in to that. Till then, this whole discussion on Nirvana is like discussing what an Elf in Lord of the Rings really looks like

 

[rossum]

You are not answering the questions.

I am, but you are not accepting my answers. If you want certainty, then you have to travel the path for yourself. Then you can be certain.

rossum

 

[billcu1]

Jaberwocky,
I am not a buddhist, but I believe in reincarnation.
There’s no way of “knowing” for sure. IMO Buddha was what I would call an old soul who reached mastery, so his life as Buddha became his last life on Earth. Therefore he must know a lot more than we do as he was way ahead of us on his spiritual journey…hence he became a spiritual teacher to many.

Re. Happiness. You might perceive happiness as the physical feeling you may experience as joy? This feeling can be achieved the ways you describe below. However, we thrive to achieve “heaven” or “nirvana” which is a different kind of “happiness” I think.

Is there any way of knowing anything for certain? If you don’t remember your past lives then you have no knowledge of them. Can Jesus actually forgive sins? You can’t see it. Feelings are unreliable. I personally choose to believe it.

The roots of a tree are faith, the trunk hope, and the fruits charity.

 

[Jaberwocky]

I am, but you are not accepting my answers. If you want certainty, then you have to travel the path for yourself. Then you can be certain.

That is not how it works. You only get one life as far as we know Rossum and the last thing you want to do is find out when you are dead that Buddhism was a scam.

People usually don’t go around believing every person who says they know things about a field. Even if we were to learn an empirical Science, the person has to show that they have some certification which was given to them by those who have verified that they have the skills and knowledge in that field.

Buddha is a man who just started claiming he knows more than other men about things beyond the observable sphere of knowledge. He claims there are things like Nirvana and such. That’s Great! Now give me one good reason to think he is not a scam or some disillusioned man.

Can you do that?

 

[billcu1]

That is not how it works. You only get one life as far as we know Rossum and the last thing you want to do is find out when you are dead that Buddhism was a scam.

People usually don’t go around believing every person who says they know things about a field. Even if we were to learn an empirical Science, the person has to show that they have some certification which was given to them by those who have verified that they have the skills and knowledge in that field.

Buddha is a man who just started claiming he knows more than other men about things beyond the observable sphere of knowledge. He claims there are things like Nirvana and such. That’s Great! Now give me one good reason to think he is not a scam or some disillusioned man.

Can you do that?

Same to you. How do you know we get one life?

 

[billcu1]

I am, but you are not accepting my answers. If you want certainty, then you have to travel the path for yourself. Then you can be certain.

rossum

He is traveling the path, just unknowingly.