No Conversion of Jews?

[stmaria]

Growing up Catholic and going to Catholic schools I had always been taught that the Jews must be baptized and convert to Christianity for any hope of salvation. How am I to understand the new attitude that the Jews do not need to convert? Are these words of Jesus just ‘empty’ words. They have no meaning today?

John 3:3 “ Amen,amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God”

John 14:6 “ I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me”

Matthew 10:33 “But he that shall deny me before men, I will also deny before my Father who is in heaven”

catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0801451.htm
VATICAN CITY (CNS) – Jewish leaders have been assured that the Vatican secretary of state will issue a statement in March saying that the pope’s revised prayer for Good Friday for the Tridentine rite is** not a call for Catholics to try to convert Jews** He said the cardinal confirmed that Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, Vatican secretary of state, "will issue a statement formally confirming his own assurances to us that the text is only eschatological, that the church is opposed to all proselytism, that the church respects the Jewish people and it recognizes the eternal validity of God’s covenant with the Jewish people."
Such a statement, Rabbi Rosen said, would clarify that the pope’s text is a prayer that** all will be saved at the end of time “**and it contains no call for a Christian **attempt to convert the Jews in **the here and now.”

 

[Pax_et_Caritas]

Growing up Catholic and going to Catholic schools I had always been taught that the Jews must be baptized and convert to Christianity for any hope of salvation. How am I to understand the new attitude that the Jews do not need to convert?

Here’s how you can understand it: They have lost the faith. Any Prelate who publicly teaches that “the Old Covenant has never been revoked by God” and that they Jew do not need to covert to be saved, has lost the faith. It is as simple as that.

 

[jj2011]

(I’m fond of the way the first pope handled this)*

Therefore let all the house of Israel know most certainly, that God hath made both Lord and Christ, this same Jesus, whom you have crucified. Now when they had heard these things, they had compunction in their heart, and said to Peter, and to the rest of the apostles: What shall we do, men and brethren? But Peter said to them: Do penance, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins: and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is to you, and to your children, and to all that are far off, whomsoever the Lord our God shall call. (Acts 2, 36-39)

 

[CatholicNerd]

(I’m fond of the way the first pope handled this)*

Therefore let all the house of Israel know most certainly, that God hath made both Lord and Christ, this same Jesus, whom you have crucified. Now when they had heard these things, they had compunction in their heart, and said to Peter, and to the rest of the apostles: What shall we do, men and brethren? But Peter said to them: Do penance, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins: and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is to you, and to your children, and to all that are far off, whomsoever the Lord our God shall call. (Acts 2, 36-39)

Well put indeed. And I like how our present pope has handled it, too:

“Let us also pray for the Jews: That our God and Lord may illuminate their hearts, that they acknowledge Jesus Christ is the Savior of all men. Almighty and eternal God, who want that all men be saved and come to the recognition of the truth, propitiously grant that even as the fulness of the peoples enters Thy Church, all Israel be saved. Through Christ Our Lord. Amen.”

Pope Benedict’s action regarding the “Good Friday Prayer” speaks louder than any drivel that the ecumanaical (that’s a new word, and I invented it!) prelates in the USCCB can write.

 

[stmaria]

Well put indeed. And I like how our present pope has handled it, too:

“Let us also pray for the Jews: That our God and Lord may illuminate their hearts, that they acknowledge Jesus Christ is the Savior of all men. Almighty and eternal God, who want that all men be saved and come to the recognition of the truth, propitiously grant that even as the fulness of the peoples enters Thy Church, all Israel be saved. Through Christ Our Lord. Amen.”

Pope Benedict’s action regarding the “Good Friday Prayer” speaks louder than any drivel that the ecumanaical (that’s a new word, and I invented it!) prelates in the USCCB can write.

However, next week** Pope Benedict **will, according to Jewish leaders say"
"the pope’s revised prayer for Good Friday for the Tridentine rite is not a call for Catholics to try to convert Jews He said the cardinal confirmed that Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, Vatican secretary of state, “will issue a statement formally confirming his own assurances to us that the text is only eschatological, that the church is opposed to all proselytism, that the church respects the Jewish people and it recognizes the eternal validity of God’s covenant with the Jewish people”
How can I , in the light of tradition, accept such a statement?

 

[CatholicCid]

However, next week** Pope Benedict **will, according to Jewish leaders say"
"the pope’s revised prayer for Good Friday for the Tridentine rite is not a call for Catholics to try to convert Jews He said the cardinal confirmed that Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, Vatican secretary of state, “will issue a statement formally confirming his own assurances to us that the text is only eschatological, that the church is opposed to all proselytism, that the church respects the Jewish people and it recognizes the eternal validity of God’s covenant with the Jewish people”
How can I , in the light of tradition, accept such a statement?

You wait until it is released and then you can try to read it in the light of tradition.

 

[Duke_of_Mantua]

Catholics seem to be giving up a lot of our tradition. Does anyone know if the jews are giving up some of theirs?

 

[HOPEFUL_IN_UK]

Catholics seem to be giving up a lot of our tradition. Does anyone know if the jews are giving up some of theirs?

Ask an Orthodox Jew and see what they say about that.

 

[Pax_et_Caritas]

Catholics seem to be giving up a lot of our tradition. Does anyone know if the jews are giving up some of theirs?

You must not understand the nature of modern ecumenism. Ecumenism is a one way street where only the Catholic compromise. The unbelievers don’t give an inch, but instead of confirmed in their errors by the “Catholics”.

One of the techniques used to promote this false ecumenism is the secular humanist commandment of “thou shalt not offend”. Under the pretense of not offending the unbeliever, the Catholics offend God.

Another “taboo” for the current ecumenical moement is defending the truth. After all, in order to defend the truth, error must be condemned; but if we condemn error, the holders of that error might be “offended”. Therefore, false ecumenism seeks to look for the “positives” in false religions, rather than shining the light on their errors.

Ecumenism is one of the primary causes that has resulted in the great apostasy of our day. Let’s hope the day is not too far off when our Church leaders will abandon this fale ecumenism, which leads only to destruction (as Pope Pius IX warned in Motalium Animos).

 

[Unitas]

Wasn’t there a document stressing evangelization just released?

I mean it wasn’t all fire and brimstone but it did mention:

1. There is today, however, a growing confusion which leads many to leave the missionary command of the Lord unheard and ineffective (cf. Mt 28:19). Often it is maintained that any attempt to convince others on religious matters is a limitation of their freedom. From this perspective, it would only be legitimate to present one’s own ideas and to invite people to act according to their consciences, without aiming at their conversion to Christ and to the Catholic faith. It is enough, so they say, to help people to become more human or more faithful to their own religion; it is enough to build communities which strive for justice, freedom, peace and solidarity. Furthermore, some maintain that Christ should not be proclaimed to those who do not know him, nor should joining the Church be promoted, since it would also be possible to be saved without explicit knowledge of Christ and without formal incorporation in the Church.

In the face of these problems, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith has judged it necessary to publish the present Note.

. . .]

In this connection, it needs also to be recalled that if a non-Catholic Christian, for reasons of conscience and having been convinced of Catholic truth, asks to enter into the full communion of the Catholic Church, this is to be respected as the work of the Holy Spirit and as an expression of freedom of conscience and of religion. In such a case, it would not be a question of proselytism in the negative sense that has been attributed to this term.[49] As explicitly recognized in the Decree on Ecumenism of the Second Vatican Council, “it is evident that the work of preparing and reconciling those individuals who desire full Catholic communion is of its nature distinct from ecumenical action, but there is no opposition between the two, since both proceed from the marvelous ways of God”.[50] Therefore, the work of ecumenism does not remove the right or take away the responsibility of proclaiming in fullness the Catholic faith to other Christians, who freely wish to receive it.

The language could be stronger, yes, but I feel it’s pretty explicit. Perhaps the derogatory sense of “proselytism” is what he means, as this document states. If what that rabbi says is true, that kinda flies in the face of what was written here.

 

[Cajetan]

I like the way that Pope St. Pius X (1903-1914) handled the Zionist leader Theodore Herzl’s request for a kind of “papal blessing” of the Zionist movement before the State of Israel had been founded. Replied Pius:

“We are unable to favor this [Zionist] movement. We cannot prevent the Jews from going to Jerusalem, but we could never sanction it. The ground of Jerusalem, if it were not always sacred, has been sanctified by the life of Jesus Christ. As the head of the Church, I cannot answer you otherwise. The Jews have not recognized Our Lord; therefore, we cannot recognize the Jewish people… If you come to Palestine and settle your people there, we will be ready with priests and churches to baptize all of you.”

 

[stmaria]

You wait until it is released and then you can try to read it in the light of tradition.

I am going to give the SSPX some credit here. They are not going to change the prayer.

cfnews.org/Fellay-Ridgefield.htm
From Bishop Fellay:
“the Good Friday prayer “is one of the oldest prayers, dating to at least the 3rd century and that it was one of the treasures of the Church.” That alone "would be an argument against changing the prayer. How can we say ‘this prayer is wrong’”? He said the new prayer is “deeply changed”. The bishop then said “it’s politics, it is not about religion.” And that “we will be using the old prayer.”

 

[Tomster]

I am going to give the SSPX some credit here. They are not going to change the prayer.

cfnews.org/Fellay-Ridgefield.htm
From Bishop Fellay:
“the Good Friday prayer “is one of the oldest prayers, dating to at least the 3rd century and that it was one of the treasures of the Church.” That alone "would be an argument against changing the prayer. How can we say ‘this prayer is wrong’”? He said the new prayer is “deeply changed”. The bishop then said “it’s politics, it is not about religion.” And that “we will be using the old prayer.”

remnantnewspaper.com/Archives/archive-2008-0229-flectamus_genua.htm

 

[marymonde]

I like the way that Pope St. Pius X (1903-1914) handled the Zionist leader Theodore Herzl’s request for a kind of “papal blessing” of the Zionist movement before the State of Israel had been founded. Replied Pius:

“We are unable to favor this [Zionist] movement. We cannot prevent the Jews from going to Jerusalem, but we could never sanction it. The ground of Jerusalem, if it were not always sacred, has been sanctified by the life of Jesus Christ. As the head of the Church, I cannot answer you otherwise. The Jews have not recognized Our Lord; therefore, we cannot recognize the Jewish people… If you come to Palestine and settle your people there, we will be ready with priests and churches to baptize all of you.”

The Truth. I pray for the days of such clear and concise teachings from Our Shepherd to return. Quickly.

 

[mschrank]

However, next week** Pope Benedict **will, according to Jewish leaders say"
"the pope’s revised prayer for Good Friday for the Tridentine rite is not a call for Catholics to try to convert Jews He said the cardinal confirmed that Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, Vatican secretary of state, “will issue a statement formally confirming his own assurances to us that the text is only eschatological, that the church is opposed to all proselytism, that the church respects the Jewish people and it recognizes the eternal validity of God’s covenant with the Jewish people”
How can I , in the light of tradition, accept such a statement?

Let’s just hope it doesn’t happen. It would suggest the chair is indeed empty.

 

[scaron]

Roy Schoeman, a convert from ultra-orthodox Judasim, is passionate about the Church’s prayers to convert his brethren. In his talks and in his book “Salvation is from the Jews” (the very title a quote from John 4:22), Schoeman quotes a postulatum developed (but unfortunately not promulgated due to the outbreak of the Franco-Prussian War) at the first Vatican council by Ratisbonne brothers - themselves Jewish converts, priests, and fathers of the Council:

*The undersigned Fathers of the Council humbly yet urgently beseechingly pray that the Holy Ecumenical Council of the Vatican deign to come to the aid of the unfortunate nation of Israel with an entirely paternal invitation; that is, that it express the wish that, finally exhausted by a wait no less futile than long, the Israelites hasten to recognize the Messiah, our Savior Jesus Christ, truly promised to Abraham and announced by Moses; thus completing and crowning, not changing, the Mosaic religion.

On one hand, the undersigned Fathers have the very firm confidence that the holy Council will have compassion on the Israelites, because they are always very dear to God on account of their fathers, and because it is from them that the Christ was born according to the flesh.

On the other hand, the same Fathers share the sweet and intimate hope that this ardent desire of tenderness and honor will be, with the aid of the Holy Spirit, well received by many of the sons of Abraham, because the obstacles which have held them back until now appear to be disappearing more and more, the ancient wall of separation now having fallen.

Would that they then speedily acclaim the Christ, saying ‘Hosanna to the Son of David! Blessed be He who comes in the name of the Lord!’

Would that they hurl themselves into the arms of the Immaculate Virgin Mary, even now their sister according to the flesh, who wishes likewise to be their mother according to grace as she is ours! *

Schoeman also speaks convincingly about the “veil” described in the Good Friday prayer, with specific reference to the CCC no 674 regarding the “hardening that has come on part of Isreal in their unbelief toward Jesus”.

This is a very interesting book, and I dont necessarily by all of Schoeman’s arguments, but he is very adamandt about the need for catholics in general and the Catholic Church as a whole to pray for the conversion of the Jews.

 

[Valke2]

Please feel free to ignore the Jews and Israel if that is how you interpret your faith. (I’m referring to the post that quoted a pope as saying you cannot recognize the Jews or sanction us going to Israel).

 

[mschrank]

Please feel free to ignore the Jews and Israel if that is how you interpret your faith.

You need to get on the phone to your co-religionists and ask them to stop throwing tantrums over our prayers.

 

[Valke2]

You need to get on the phone to your co-religionists and ask them to stop throwing tantrums over our prayers.

yes. all we jews do is whine about catholic prayers. I will pray that you return to the true religion of Judaism soon.

 

[Dauphin]

This development is deeply troubling, but I am confident that the Chair of Peter is not empty. Pope John Paul II did and said some outrageous and sacriligeous things during his papacy, but he was still the Pope. The Holy Spirit still protects the Church from defining error.

If this statement is released, it will be an apalling repudiation of the Catholic faith, but only a personal apostacy on the part of those involved.