No Conversion of Jews?

[CarolsDaughter]

Maria, Are you including Orthodox Judaism in your definition of a “false religion”?

I would never think to declare Roman Catholicism a “false religion”, because although I believe Jews have an obligation to keep Torah (and therefore, Catholicism would be a “false religion” FOR JEWS), I would never call it that for Gentiles wishing to become Catholic.

As much as I admire traditional religions and dislike liberalized versions of them, I do think that mentalities that say 'we’re right and you’re wrong" contributed much to the hate that has been sadly propagated in the name of religion for many centuries.

Dialogue and ecumenism (both of which I have been actively involved in for decades) should not be about conversion but about understanding. Coming as I do from a family that is Jewish on one side and Catholic on the other, I have a special interest in trying to further Jewish-Catholic mutual understanding.

However, I am a traditionalist in other ways, in that I feel it was very wrong for the Catholic church to modernize as they did after Vatican 2. Just as I dislike those who seek to distort and corrupt Judaism by watering it down (as reform Jews do), I disliked when they did it in Catholicism also.

 

[Dauphin]

Maria, Are you including Orthodox Judaism in your definition of a “false religion”?

I would never think to declare Roman Catholicism a “false religion”, because although I believe Jews have an obligation to keep Torah (and therefore, Catholicism would be a “false religion” FOR JEWS), I would never call it that for Gentiles wishing to become Catholic.

As much as I admire traditional religions and dislike liberalized versions of them, I do think that mentalities that say 'we’re right and you’re wrong" contributed much to the hate that has been sadly propagated in the name of religion for many centuries.

Recognizing the false teachings of other faiths shouldn’t provoke someone to hatred, but to mercy. The goal is to bring people to truth, so that they may be saved. Confirming others in error is an uncharitable and sinful act.

Catholics believe Judaism to be false because it rejects Our Savior. If you think that Christ is not the messiah, then by extension, you believe Christianity to be a “false religion” in that it teaches things that are false. Calling other religions “false” is a simple matter of definition - it’s not meant to offend.

Dialogue and ecumenism (both of which I have been actively involved in for decades) should not be about conversion but about understanding.

If that’s the case, then there’s absolutely no reason for the Church to be involved in ecumenism. The mission of the church is to make disciples of all nations - not to waste its time patting people on the back

 

[Cajetan]

Saying that in Christ men may find “fullness of religious life” falls way short of saying that only in Christ men can be saved. That is not a call for conversion to Christ. Holiness can only come from God. How there can be something"holy" in a false religion is beyond me.

The document seems to be operating on a “teleological” schema of world religions: that even though Catholic Christianity is the greatest good/truth, other religions partake in various respective degrees of goodness/truth.

This is, of course, within the Aristotelian philosophical framework, true. If there is one complete truth, all that falls beneath it will either be closer to it or further from it, like on a scale. The glaring problem, as you point out, is that this is kind of irrelevant in terms of the Salvation of man. There are not varying degrees of Heaven. Salvation is from Christ, through His Holy Catholic Church. Regarding other religions, and even non-Catholic Christianity, it is difficult for me to imagine that God is so “optimistic” and “ecumenical.” Christ did not walk among us and found His Church because it wasn’t really necessary for people to be a part of it.

 

[CarolsDaughter]

I’ll tell you what got me involved in ecumenism many decades ago. I believe God has His Hand in it.

When I was 10 years old, I was growing up in a neighborhood that was mixed immigrant Jewish, Italian and Irish.

One day, a few girls from the local Catholic school cornered me behind the bakery near our home, grabbed me by my hair, pushed my face into a wall, and told me, “YOU killed Our Lord”.

After I managed to get home, a bloody mess, my parents cleaned me up and my father said that those girls did that because they did not understand their own religion. My Jewish father told me that Christianity teaches that Jesus died for the sins of all mankind. He said that the sins of Christians killed Jesus, according to Christian belief.

I determined at that point that I would never be as ignorant of my own religion or the religions of others, as those girls evidently were of my religion, and even their own.

The Catechism of the Council of Trent (issued in the “big, bad Middle Ages”) even states that Christians are far more to blame for the crucifixion than Jews, because of their SINS.

So my goal in ecumenism is to understand the religious views of my Christian and other neighbors, and not to convert them (but of course if they want to convert, I would help them). Judaism believes that the righteous and God-fearing of all nations have a share in the world to come. Jews have an obligation to keep the Torah God gave us at Mt Sinai, but Gentiles have no obligation to become Jewish unless they feel called to do so.

Do I believe Christianity to be a “false religion”? Yes, but ONLY TO JEWS. It is false FOR JEWS because that is not the covenant God gave US. I do believe God gave it for Gentiles, as I also believe He did with Islam.

Judaism teaches that God allowed both Christianity and Islam to develop as a way for gentiles to get out of the polytheism of ancient times, and accept the JEWISH concept of ethical monotheism, without a need to convert to Judaism first.

Think about it: Gentile Christian missionaries have spread the JEWISH Bible and its teachings all over the world. People in India, Africa and China know about the God of Israel, and its because of Christianity. Christians have done Judaism’s job for us, in a way we never could have because we didn’t have enough people, and we’re not a proselytizing religion anyway.

This way, when the true Messiah does finally come, ALL the world will recognize him because Christianity laid the groundwork by teaching gentiles in far lands of the JEWISH concept of “Messiah” (anointed one).

And then, as it says in Scripture, “My House shall be called a house of prayer for ALL PEOPLES” (Isaiah.)

 

[Cajetan]

Maria, Are you including Orthodox Judaism in your definition of a “false religion”?

I would never think to declare Roman Catholicism a “false religion”, because although I believe Jews have an obligation to keep Torah (and therefore, Catholicism would be a “false religion” FOR JEWS), I would never call it that for Gentiles wishing to become Catholic.

As much as I admire traditional religions and dislike liberalized versions of them, I do think that mentalities that say 'we’re right and you’re wrong" contributed much to the hate that has been sadly propagated in the name of religion for many centuries.

Dialogue and ecumenism (both of which I have been actively involved in for decades) should not be about conversion but about understanding. Coming as I do from a family that is Jewish on one side and Catholic on the other, I have a special interest in trying to further Jewish-Catholic mutual understanding.

However, I am a traditionalist in other ways, in that I feel it was very wrong for the Catholic church to modernize as they did after Vatican 2. Just as I dislike those who seek to distort and corrupt Judaism by watering it down (as reform Jews do), I disliked when they did it in Catholicism also.

I know where you’re coming from, and I’m not trying to be offensive, but I have to side with Dauphin in saying that it is part of my religion – indeed, it is traditional Catholicism – to regard Orthodox Judaism (along with all other religions, including Protestantism) as a false religion. You are a member of a false religion. I say this not to hurt you, but in the hope that you will one day accept Christ, because unless and until you do this your soul is in serious jeopardy. (This is not to say that just because I am a Catholic that my soul is not in serious jeopardy – my soul is in this state whenever I have committed a mortal sin and have not sought foregiveness, which, unfortunately, is a state that I find myself in all-too-often.)

This kind of talk is like oil to the water of our ecumenical age, I realize. But I think that there is a lot that is quite wrong with our ecumenical age.

 

[CarolsDaughter]

I know where you’re coming from, and I’m not trying to be offensive, but I have to side with Dauphin in saying that it is part of my religion – indeed, it is traditional Catholicism – to regard Orthodox Judaism (along with all other religions, including Protestantism) as a false religion. You are a member of a false religion. I say this not to hurt you, but in the hope that you will one day accept Christ, because unless and until you do this your soul is in serious jeopardy. (This is not to say that just because I am a Catholic that my soul is not in serious jeopardy – my soul is in this state whenever I have committed a mortal sin and have not sought foregiveness, which, unfortunately, is a state that I find myself in all-too-often.)

This kind of talk is like oil to the water of our ecumenical age, I realize. But I think that there is a lot that is quite wrong with our ecumenical age.

I don’t have any problem with someone trying to convert me to Christianity. I am more than adequately able to refute Christian claims for Jesus’ deity and messiahship; I have been doing it for over 20 years.

I know that Jesus was not the messiah FOR JEWS; I can prove this Scripturally and historically. But I feel that if GENTILES want to believe in him, that is perfectly fine, and in many cases, is commendable and actually preferable, since I know of cases where a conversion to belief in Jesus changed peoples’ lives for the good.

But it is not for me. I know what God wants and expects of me as a Jew, and I follow His will, and His will alone.

Dominus vobiscum!

 

[Sure]

This idea that the conversion of the Jews and other non-christian religions is not longer necessary, in my opinion, comes from the Vatican II document Nostrae Aetate which praises non-christian religions and never calls for any need to convert.
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html
“Thus in Hinduism, men contemplate the divine mystery and express it through an inexhaustible abundance of myths…. They seek freedom from the anguish of our human condition either through ascetical practices or profound meditation or a flight to God with love and trust. Again, Buddhism, in its various forms, realizes the radical insufficiency of this changeable world; it** teaches a way by which men, in a devout and confident spirit, may be able either to acquire the state of perfect liberation, **or attain, by their own efforts or through higher help, supreme illumination…… The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions. She regards with sincere reverence those ways of conduct and of life, those precepts and teachings which, though differing in many aspects from the ones she holds and sets forth, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that Truth which enlightens all men. Indeed, she proclaims, and ever must proclaim Christ “the way, the truth, and the life” (John 14:6), in whom men may find the fullness of religious life, in whom God has reconciled all things to Himself”

Saying that in Christ men may find “fullness of religious life” falls way short of saying that only in Christ men can be saved. That is not a call for conversion to Christ. Holiness can only come from God. How there can be something"holy" in a false religion is beyond me.
.
“Thus, in Hinduism men contemplate the divine mystery and express it through an inexhaustible fruitfulness of myths… trusting flight toward God.”
Hinduism is a pantheistic (the world is god) as well as a polytheistic (many gods) religion. Hinduism recognizes many divinities, there are three of great importance — Brahma, the creator; Vishnu, the preserver; and Shiva, the destroyer. Hindus worship many animals as gods. Cows are the most sacred, but they also worship monkeys, snakes and other animals. How can Hindus make a “loving, trusting flight to God” when they worship false gods?
Continuing from the Declaration Nostra Aetate:
“Buddhism in its multiple forms acknowledges the radical insufficiency of this shifting world. It teaches a path by which men, in a devout and confident spirit, can either reach a state of absolute freedom or **attain supreme enlightenment by their own efforts or by higher assistance.”
Buddhism teaches nothing about God; all beings are essentially equal. They believe in metempsychosis (the rebirth of the soul at death into the body of either a human or an animal form — reincarnation) until he acquires perfection in nirvana.
How can Vatican II speak of “supreme enlightenment” in Buddhism? How can there be any enlightenment without knowledge of the true God and with the false belief of reincarnation?
Also from Nostra Aetate:
“Upon the Muslims, too, the church looks with esteem. They adore one God, living and enduring, merciful and all-powerful, Maker of heaven and earth and Speaker to men… Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet.”
Vatican II praises the Muslims because “they revere Him (Jesus) as a prophet;” yet, Muslims deny His divinity which Jesus Christ openly declared and was demonstrated by His miracles (especially His Resurrection. If the Muslims revere Jesus as a prophet, how can they claim that He is not divine?

I can’t understand the refusal of Vatican II to call for the conversion of these false religions. And we still see this continue today.If the aim of inner-religious dialogue was to eventually ask for conversion I could understand, but it has been over 40 years and there is still no call for conversion.

If you read the document in light of tradition, it’s obviously a call for conversion.

How there can be something holy in a false religion. When a false religion affirms a truth of reality it in some very small, but still meaningful way communicates the truth about God. When a Muslim says, “there is only one God” that is a true statement. Despite the fact that they go on to deny many attributes of God and add false attributes does not invalidate their belief that “there is only one God.” It is in this way, and in this way ONLY, that false religions can still communicate some truth about God and his creation.

 

[stmaria]

Sure;3457054]If you read the document in light of tradition, it’s obviously a call for conversion

.
I have tried to read Nostra Aetate in the “light of tradition” and I don’t believe that it can be done. To say that the following is a call to conversion is a huge reach:
“Indeed, she proclaims, and ever must proclaim Christ “the way, the truth, and the life” (John 14:6), in whom men may find **the fullness of religious life, in whom God has reconciled all things to Himself"
Here is another huge reach:
" the Church has always held and holds now, Christ underwent His passion and death freely, because of the sins of men and out of infinite love, in order that all may reach salvation. It is, therefore, the burden of the Church’s preaching to proclaim the cross of Christ as the sign of God’s all-embracing love and as the fountain from which every grace flows."
You call that a call to conversion???

How there can be something holy in a false religion. When a false religion affirms a truth of reality it in some very small, but still meaningful way communicates the truth about God. When a Muslim says, “there is only one God” that is a true statement. Despite the fact that they go on to deny many attributes of God and add false attributes does not invalidate their belief that “there is only one God.” It is in this way, and in this way ONLY, that false religions can still communicate some truth about God and his creation

Huh? Buddhists believe in reincarnation. That is true and holy? Hindus believe in the following divinities: Brahma, the creator; Vishnu, the preserver; and Shiva, the destroyer. What truth and holiness is found there?
While Muslims believe in God. So what? They do not believe that the Trinity created the world. They do not believe in the Son of God. Is Islam a false religion or not?

In Nostrae Aetate we have the perfect example of modernist thinking as describded by Pope Pius X in Pascendi
" Here it is well to note at once that, given this doctrine of experience united with that of symbolism, every religion, even that of paganism, must be held to be true. What is to prevent such experiences from being found in any religion? In fact, that they are so is maintained by not a few. On what grounds can Modernists deny the truth of an experience affirmed by a follower of Islam? Will they claim a monopoly of true experiences for Catholics alone? Indeed, Modernists do not deny, but actually maintain, some confusedly, others frankly, that all religions are true. That they cannot feel otherwise is obvious. For on what ground, according to their theories, could falsity be predicated of any religion whatsoever? … In the conflict between different religions, the most that Modernists can maintain is that the Catholic has more truth because it is more vivid, and that it deserves with more reason the name of Christian because it corresponds more fully with the origins of Christianity. No one will find it unreasonable that these consequences flow from the premises. But what is most amazing is that there are Catholics and priests, who, We would fain believe, abhor such enormities, and yet act as if they fully approved of them. For they lavish such praise and bestow such public honor on the teachers of these errors **as to convey the belief that their admiration is not meant merely for the persons, who are perhaps not devoid of a certain merit, but rather for the sake of the errors which these persons openly profess and which they do all in their power to propagate. "

 

[CarolsDaughter]

I believe that if someone truly, truly believes in the One God, God will hear their prayer and answer their prayer.

There are those who would say I am “unsaved” or in a ‘false religion’ because I am a Jew. But I have a very deep personal relationship with God, I pray to God daily, not just when I am in need, and I always remember to thank Him when He helps me.

Because of this, He has done truly miraculous things for me, as recently as yesterday! He has had His Hand upon me since before I was born, because I was not supposed to live from the gitgo, my mother’s doctor had predicted I would be stillborn due to the Rh disease my mother had, yet I lived.

So I KNOW there is a God, and I KNOW He cares about me because He has proven it time and time again in my life.

 

[stmaria]

=CarolsDaughter;3457049]. I am more than adequately able to refute Christian claims for Jesus’ deity and messiahship; I have been doing it for over 20 years.

I know that Jesus was not the messiah FOR JEWS; I can prove this Scripturally and historically…**when the true Messiah does finally come, **ALL the world will recognize him because Christianity laid the groundwork by teaching gentiles in far lands of the JEWISH concept of “Messiah”

The True Messiah has come and His name is Jesus Christ.
Please, and if necessary, start a new thread. Try to prove Scripturally that Christ is not the Messiah. You have been waiting now for how long?? He has already come and you refused to accept Him.

 

[CarolsDaughter]

The True Messiah has come and His name is Jesus Christ.
Please, and if necessary, start a new thread. Try to prove Scripturally that Christ is not the Messiah. You have been waiting now for how long?? He has already come and you refused to accept Him.

I didn’t come to this forum to disprove his claims to messiahship, I only stated that I am well able to do so if necessary.

I’ve written articles which disprove it, for Jews to read who want to learn more as to why Judaism does not believe in Jesus. I only mentioned that I am more than able to disprove, because someone here tried to missionize me.

You see, this is what the Catholics who ran the Inquisition failed to grasp. We Jews don’t care if Gentiles choose to believe in Jesus. Go for it, more power to you.

But he is not for US. Accept that, and maybe we can all live in peace.

 

[Sure]

.
I have tried to read Nostra Aetate in the “light of tradition” and I don’t believe that it can be done. To say that the following is a call to conversion is a huge reach:
“Indeed, she proclaims, and ever must proclaim Christ “the way, the truth, and the life” (John 14:6), in whom men may find **the fullness of religious life, in whom God has reconciled all things to Himself"
Here is another huge reach:
" the Church has always held and holds now, Christ underwent His passion and death freely, because of the sins of men and out of infinite love, in order that all may reach salvation. It is, therefore, the burden of the Church’s preaching to proclaim the cross of Christ as the sign of God’s all-embracing love and as the fountain from which every grace flows."

This mystifies you??? No offense but is English your first language? Let’s take a quick look…

"Christ underwent His passion and death freely, because of the sins of men and out of infinite love, in order that all may reach salvation.

Well, ummm duh. Christ’s death was sufficient for the salvation of all men. That’s why it says “MAY reach salvation” instead of “WILL reach salvation.” That implies the hope that all will embrace Christ’s Church and achieve salvation. Of course, probably some will not. Then the next line really brings it home:

the** burden **of the Church’s preaching to proclaim the cross of Christ as the sign of God’s all-embracing love and as the fountain from which every grace flows

A burden! Why? Because those who are not united to the Church will not receive His salvific grace!

Huh? Buddhists believe in reincarnation. That is true and holy? Hindus believe in the following divinities: Brahma, the creator; Vishnu, the preserver; and Shiva, the destroyer. What truth and holiness is found there?
While Muslims believe in God. So what? They do not believe that the Trinity created the world. They do not believe in the Son of God. Is Islam a false religion or not?

Thank you for proving out exactly what I said. I never said reincarnation was “true and holy.” That’s nuts. But when a false religion says something like, “There is one God” that is a TRUE statement and insofar as it is TRUE it affirms a TRUTH about reality and God. That’s it. Don’t read more into it. Yes, Islam is a “false religion”.

In *Nostrae Aetate *we have the perfect example of modernist thinking as describded by Pope Pius X in Pascendi
" Here it is well to note at once that, given this doctrine of experience united with that of symbolism, every religion, even that of paganism, must be held to be true. What is to prevent such experiences from being found in any religion? In fact, that they are so is maintained by not a few. On what grounds can Modernists deny the truth of an experience affirmed by a follower of Islam? Will they claim a monopoly of true experiences for Catholics alone? Indeed, Modernists do not deny, but actually maintain, some confusedly, others frankly, that all religions are true.

This aligns perfectly with current Church teaching and the teachings of Vatican II.

 

[Duke_of_Mantua]

I didn’t come to this forum to disprove his claims to messiahship, I only stated that I am well able to do so if necessary.

I’ve written articles which disprove it, for Jews to read who want to learn more as to why Judaism does not believe in Jesus. I only mentioned that I am more than able to disprove, because someone here tried to missionize me.

You see, this is what the Catholics who ran the Inquisition failed to grasp. We Jews don’t care if Gentiles choose to believe in Jesus. Go for it, more power to you.

But he is not for US. Accept that, and maybe we can all live in peace.

Do you have a link where I can read your argument? I am curious to read about the other side.

 

[CarolsDaughter]

Do you have a link where I can read your argument? I am curious to read about the other side.

My religious polemical articles are not online, but you can check out this site for an online book stating the Jewish understanding of Christian interpretation of prophecies in our Bible:

drazin.com

 

[stmaria]

Nostra Aetate, "Christ underwent His passion and death freely, because of the sins of men and out of infinite love, in order that all may reach salvation

"

=Sure;3458272]
Well, ummm duh. Christ’s death was sufficient for the salvation of all men. That’s why it says “MAY reach salvation” instead of “WILL reach salvation.” That implies the hope that all will embrace Christ’s Church and achieve salvation. Of course, probably some will not. Then the next line really brings it home

:
That is a call to conversion?

Nostra Aetate, "the burden of the Church’s preaching to proclaim the cross of Christ as the sign of God’s all-embracing love and as the fountain from which every grace flows

"

Quote Sure
A burden! Why? Because those who are not united to the Church will not receive His salvific grace!

That is a call for conversion?
Sure, I know that you want Nostrae Aetate to be in line with traditional Church teaching but what a stretch. Using the word ‘burden’ is a call to conversion? Why not just call for conversion? No need to masked it in ambiguity.

In Nostrae Aetate we have the perfect example of modernist thinking as describded by Pope Pius X in Pascendi
" Here it is well to note at once that, given this doctrine of experience united with that of symbolism, every religion, even that of paganism, must be held to be true. What is to prevent such experiences from being found in any religion? In fact, that they are so is maintained by not a few. On what grounds can Modernists deny the truth of an experience affirmed by a follower of Islam? Will they claim a monopoly of true experiences for Catholics alone? Indeed, Modernists do not deny, but actually maintain, some confusedly, others frankly, that all religions are true

Quote Sure
This aligns perfectly with current Church teaching and the teachings of Vatican II.

What aligns perfectly with current teaching? That all religions are true?

 

[Yerusalyim]

Here’s how you can understand it: They have lost the faith. Any Prelate who publicly teaches that “the Old Covenant has never been revoked by God” and that they Jew do not need to covert to be saved, has lost the faith. It is as simple as that.

You could nto be any more wrong if you tried. The bible and the teaching of the Church show that the “Old Covenant” is not Revoked…because God’s promise and call are ETERNAL. The bible plainly states that, as does the Catechism of the Catholic Church…which further states that Judaism IS a response to the call of God. YOU have lost the faith…or do you know better than the Church?

 

[Yerusalyim]

I think all my “Traditional” Catholic friends need to read and understand what the Church teaches about Judaism…and maybe read a bit of the New Testament as well, where Paul tells us the Call and Promise of God are Irrevocable (as regards the Covenant), the fact that Christ was a Jew, that Paul remained a faithful keeper of the covenant his entire life, the fact that the Church long ago dropped the silliness about “blood guilt” that seems to be on the tip of so many tongues in this forum.

JUDAISM IS a response to the Call of God…that is the Teaching of the Holy Catholic Church…live with it…or form your own church in protest.

 

[Freshman88]

the Church’s current stance on Judaism suggests that Christ was not necessary. In fact, if salvation can be found through following the Old Covenant, then why did Christ come? Did Israel need a redeemer or not?

For this reason I see the prayer for Jews to grow in their covenant as being outside of Tradition. Doesn’t Tradition and Scripture teach us that Christ was necessary? Doesn’t Tradition and Scripture teach us that Israel needed a saviour?

I’ve never understood Christ’s coming as optional. Yet if the Old Covenant is a perfectly legitimate way to come to God, then why did his Son suffer? Are we really left with Judaism as a valid option?

I attended a NO parish this Friday.

 

[CarolsDaughter]

I think all my “Traditional” Catholic friends need to read and understand what the Church teaches about Judaism…and maybe read a bit of the New Testament as well, where Paul tells us the Call and Promise of God are Irrevocable (as regards the Covenant), the fact that Christ was a Jew, that Paul remained a faithful keeper of the covenant his entire life, the fact that the Church long ago dropped the silliness about “blood guilt” that seems to be on the tip of so many tongues in this forum.

JUDAISM IS a response to the Call of God…that is the Teaching of the Holy Catholic Church…live with it…or form your own church in protest.

This might be a little off topic, but I want to let you know something that may shock you.

Although I am a religious Jew and have been, actually, all my life, in my homeschooling of my children I use a Traditional Catholic homeschool curriculum. I just remove the religious content, because the rest is very solid academically and I have used this curriculum since 1995 (there is only one Orthodox Jewish homeschool curriculum, and the teacher’s guides are in Yiddish, so forget that one!)

Anyway, in all the years I have used this curriculum, NOT ONCE have I found ANYTHING antisemitic…even though the books are reprints from Catholic school books used in the 1940s and 1950s!

Not only have I not found anything antisemitic, I have found some very PRO-Jewish things, esp. in the history books that deal with ancient history.

That tells me that those Catholic schoolgirls who beat me up in 1969 and called me “Christ killer” and who said (as they were hitting me), “YOU killed Our Lord!”, did NOT learn that hate in Catholic school, as I had previously assumed.

They learned it AT HOME.

In my study of the history of the Catholic church before V2, I find that when antisemitic incidents did occur, usually it was the work of Catholic MONARCHS, and not the church proper. There were even times when Popes tried to STOP the abuses, such as forced baptisms.

I often point this out to other Jews, and to Protestants, when they make anti-Catholic claims about the pre-V2 church.\

I’m not saying the church before V2 was totally pristine in regard to Jews; they were not. But some of what has been laid at the door of the church was really the doing of LAY CATHOLICS who were not acting in accord with true church goals.

 

[Freshman88]

I think all my “Traditional” Catholic friends need to read and understand what the Church teaches about Judaism…and maybe read a bit of the New Testament as well,

I have read what the Church teaches, and I am confused. For 2000 years it seemed as though anything less than His Church, the new People of God, was simply that, less.

where Paul tells us the Call and Promise of God are Irrevocable (as regards the Covenant), the fact that Christ was a Jew, that Paul remained a faithful keeper of the covenant his entire life,

Although Paul followed the Old law, he was a Catholic.

Christ was a Jew, but He established a new People of God, a new Israel in His Church for the whole of mankind.

the fact that the Church long ago dropped the silliness about “blood guilt” that seems to be on the tip of so many tongues in this forum.

blood guilt is silliness. I doubt its on the tip of anyone’s tongue.

JUDAISM IS a response to the Call of God…that is the Teaching of the Holy Catholic Church…live with it…or form your own church in protest.

I do live with it, but I do not understand it, especially since it seems to contradict with such notions as the necessity of Christ and the new Israel and new People of God.