No Crucifixes in Church or Mass

[pamnbam]

You’re right that without the resurrection, our faith is in vain (1 Corinthians 15:14), but without the passion, there would be no salvation.

Very well said!

Nothing’s wrong with celebrating the Resurrection, but it couldn’t happen without the crucifixion.

 

[thistle]

Oh okay. The pictures should show up in the post itself. You can’t see them?

I just see a frog in an ice cube.

 

[1AugustSon7]

For me, and the way I understand our theology, the passion, death and ressurection are a strict unity.

That is actually a very serious error.

The Ressurection was not necessary for salvation; it is, however, a confirmation of our Faith in Christ and the general ressurection that the faithful of Israel always believed in (alluded to, e.g., by Abraham’s sacrifice of his son, Isaac; the Church Fathers also teach that the Day of Wrath/Judgement Day was alluded to in (then) Abram’s vision: 12] And when the sun was setting, a deep sleep fell upon Abram, and a great and darksome horror seized upon him. He may also here have seen Our Lord’s Passion and death upon the Cross.)

Our Lord’s Passion and death are, however, a unity: from the Last Supper until He gave up the Ghost, there is a strict unity, made manifest by the Last Supper’s pointing, as it were, to His death on the Cross. The whole ritual was not completed until He consummated it upon the Cross: it would be a serious error to divorce the sacrifice of the Cross from the Last Supper.

The Ressurection is Our Lord’s greatest miracle and another demonstration of His Divinity: He raised Himself by His own power: no mere man has such a power; it was not, however, necessary for our redemption or salvation.

Finally, the Ressurection was necessary as a fulfillment of prophecy, but not for our redemption or salvation: hence it is seen as a miraculous confirmation of our Faith in Christ.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Your comment is interesting. When I was learning about Catholicism, I saw that there was a large focus on the passion - on the sacrifice, then there was in Protestantism.

Traditional Catholicism, and I don’t mean traditionalist, is very focused on sacrifice, and suffering and making reparation. Look at the writing of the Saints.

You’re right that without the resurrection, our faith is in vain (1 Corinthians 15:14), but without the passion, there would be no salvation.

That’s why every Sunday we celebrate the sacrifice of the mass.

I don’t think it is appropriate to have a grinning Christ on a cross.

I think this is where East and West differs, on emphasis. West emphasizes on the sacrifice, while the East emphasizes on the Resurrection.

 

[choliks]

Oh okay. The pictures should show up in the post itself. You can’t see them?

I just see a frog in an ice cube.

That’s because TrueLight’s image server (imageshack.us) requires an account login for the viewer to see the image, otherwise, you’ll just see the frog. Unfortunately, not everybody has an account with imageshack.

Now on with the thread. Sorry for the little derailment.

 

[paperwight66]

That’s because TrueLight’s image server (imageshack.us) requires an account login for the viewer to see the image, otherwise, you’ll just see the frog. Unfortunately, not everybody has an account with imageshack.

Now on with the thread. Sorry for the little derailment.

I can see them, but I don’t have an account.

 

[englishredrose]

Hello all!

I recently moved from a diocese that was very faithful to the magisterium to one where I’m not so sure. I’m used to seeing the crucified Jesus above the altar in all the churches I used to attend. In my new diocese, altar crucifixes, even processional crucifixes, are few and far between.

During Lent, my church had a crucifix up, but after Easter, there’s now a statue of the risen Lord in its place. I’m told this happens every year. I’m very disturbed that there is no crucifix in my new parish, not even one being processed at the beginning of Mass. I’ve read the GIRM and I know what should be in place during Mass, but it’s not being done. Visiting a few other parishes tells me that this is not just a parish problem. The two churches in my diocese run by religious priests are the only two with crucifixes.

To make things more interesting, my kid is starting kindergarten at my new parish this fall. I want him to understand the beauty of our Lord’s sacrifice, but I don’t want to be the “new kid on the block” making demands about what’s in our church.

As you can see, this is a diocesan problem. The bishop must clearly know what’s going on if these identical “Risen Lord” statues are above most every altar in his diocese. I know that’s who I need to go to, but will it do any good? I’m a former Protestant, and there are other things going on at my church which seem illicit; not having a crucifix, especially these other Protestant church behaviors take me back to a place I don’t want to go. I left that Protestant world for the real one.

For now, I’m going to the Masses at the two other Churches. This is fine until my kid starts school and we’ll need to show proof of parish attendance through the stewardship envelopes. I guess I could bring the envelopes to the parish office each week…

But what would you do? Would you still try the bishop? Is there any recourse if he’s unwilling to correct the issue? Is this just small potatoes/am I being selfish. This is really bothering me and I haven’t brought it up to my husband yet/not sure he’ll understand. I’m having dreams about Mass at my old parish and my former Catholic school teaching days when we revered the crucifix. Any help? Thanks in advance!

What would I do?
I would contact the priest and ask to have a talk with him. You are not complaining. You are wanting to know. By having a chat with him one to one, will give you a chance to learn where they are coming from and a chance for him to get to know you especially if you are wanting your son to go to the school.

 

[roadsend]

That’s because TrueLight’s image server (imageshack.us) requires an account login for the viewer to see the image, otherwise, you’ll just see the frog. Unfortunately, not everybody has an account with imageshack.

Now on with the thread. Sorry for the little derailment.

I don’t have an account with imageshack and I see the photos.

 

[pamnbam]

What would I do?
I would contact the priest and ask to have a talk with him. You are not complaining. You are wanting to know. By having a chat with him one to one, will give you a chance to learn where they are coming from and a chance for him to get to know you especially if you are wanting your son to go to the school.

Thank you for another solution! I have a hard time not seeing it as complaining (I guess it’s all in how I raise the topic), but it’s a start!

Any other suggestions? I appreciate the dialogue on this…

 

[TrueLight]

That’s because TrueLight’s image server (imageshack.us) requires an account login for the viewer to see the image, otherwise, you’ll just see the frog. Unfortunately, not everybody has an account with imageshack.

Now on with the thread. Sorry for the little derailment.

Do you know I had no idea that was the case? Thanks for pointing it out choliks and thistle.

It was supposed to automatically appear in the thread.

**Edited: **

I don’t have an account with imageshack and I see the photos.

Now I’m confused, LOL. Anyway, onwards with the thread!

 

[TimothyH]

Your comment is interesting. When I was learning about Catholicism, I saw that there was a large focus on the passion - on the sacrifice, then there was in Protestantism.

Traditional Catholicism, and I don’t mean traditionalist, is very focused on sacrifice, and suffering and making reparation. Look at the writing of the Saints.

You’re right that without the resurrection, our faith is in vain (1 Corinthians 15:14), but without the passion, there would be no salvation.

That’s why every Sunday we celebrate the sacrifice of the mass.

I don’t think it is appropriate to have a grinning Christ on a cross.

I don’t particularly care for the smiling Jesus. It is kind of cartoonish.

-Tim-

 

[TrueLight]

I think this is where East and West differs, on emphasis. West emphasizes on the sacrifice, while the East emphasizes on the Resurrection.

Is that so? I wonder how that difference came about. What did the Desert Fathers focus on? Are there icons of Jesus crucified?

 

[TimothyH]

Very nice sentiment, but I think it is very possible to celebrate the Resurrection, while following the liturgical laws and traditions of the Church.

I have seen this type of response quite a bit recently here on CAF and I wish it would stop, a complete dismissal of what someone says as nothing more than sentimentality or emotional feeling.

I wish you would not do this. Please stop.

-Tim-

 

[TimothyH]

That is actually a very serious error.

The Ressurection was not necessary for salvation; it is, however, a confirmation of our Faith in Christ and the general ressurection that the faithful of Israel always believed in (alluded to, e.g., by Abraham’s sacrifice of his son, Isaac; the Church Fathers also teach that the Day of Wrath/Judgement Day was alluded to in (then) Abram’s vision: 12] And when the sun was setting, a deep sleep fell upon Abram, and a great and darksome horror seized upon him. He may also here have seen Our Lord’s Passion and death upon the Cross.)

Our Lord’s Passion and death are, however, a unity: from the Last Supper until He gave up the Ghost, there is a strict unity, made manifest by the Last Supper’s pointing, as it were, to His death on the Cross. The whole ritual was not completed until He consummated it upon the Cross: it would be a serious error to divorce the sacrifice of the Cross from the Last Supper.

The Ressurection is Our Lord’s greatest miracle and another demonstration of His Divinity: He raised Himself by His own power: no mere man has such a power; it was not, however, necessary for our redemption or salvation.

Finally, the Ressurection was necessary as a fulfillment of prophecy, but not for our redemption or salvation: hence it is seen as a miraculous confirmation of our Faith in Christ.

Yet the celebration of the Eucharist is a memorial of Christ’s death and ressurection. It is not a memorial of Christ’s death alone.

-Tim-

 

[asia53]

Thank you for another solution! I have a hard time not seeing it as complaining (I guess it’s all in how I raise the topic), but it’s a start!

Any other suggestions? I appreciate the dialogue on this…

My parish recently dealt with this problem. We had a Sacred Heart of Jesus statue, and a small brass crucifix, only visible to Father.

Father said, “This isn’t right.” He cited,

GIRM 308. Likewise, either on the altar or near it, there is to be a cross, with the figure of Christ crucified upon it, a cross clearly visible to the assembled people. It is desirable that such a cross should remain near the altar even outside of liturgical celebrations, so as to call to mind for the faithful the saving Passion of the Lord.

The second part of the problem, we have a very ornate old European altar with a carving of the Last Supper. A parishioner donated a crucifix, but it was too large. The larger crucifix clashed with the altar, even though, it was a beautiful crucifix. We shopped around, and finally, found a smaller crucifix, which looks good with the ornate altar, and is visible to all.

You might cite GIRM 308, when you talk with pastor.

 

[choliks]

Do you know I had no idea that was the case? Thanks for pointing it out choliks and thistle.

It was supposed to automatically appear in the thread.

**Edited: **

Now I’m confused, LOL. Anyway, onwards with the thread!

Then it must be due to thistle’s geographical location. The suffix or extension of Imageshack is “.us” which might prevent viewers from outside the US from seeing the content without logging in.

carry on.

 

[coachkfan1]

I too am in the south and we do greeting before Mass and other “protestant friendly” actions. Now here is a question that I have: When i visited some of the missions in Texas, Christ on the cross was often portrayed as an Aztec Indian wearing Aztec garb so that the natives could relate to the image. So, is it possible in a similar way that protestant mannerisms are being incorporated into parishes which are heavily protestant so that the “indigenous” protestants can relate to the Catholic faith? Just asking.

 

[pamnbam]

I too am in the south and we do greeting before Mass and other “protestant friendly” actions. Now here is a question that I have: When i visited some of the missions in Texas, Christ on the cross was often portrayed as an Aztec Indian wearing Aztec garb so that the natives could relate to the image. So, is it possible in a similar way that protestant mannerisms are being incorporated into parishes which are heavily protestant so that the “indigenous” protestants can relate to the Catholic faith? Just asking.

That’s a good point, and I was wondering if that was the root of the issue. However, as asia53 stated, we still have the GIRM that requires the crucifix. True, parishes can integrate cultural customs (different languages, music style, etc.) so long as they don’t add to or take away from the GIRM and Mass rubrics.

I can understand “wanting to relate” to the Protestant majority population, but a some point we have to draw the line and say “we’re Catholic.” I don’t want our Truth being diluted just so someone’s feelings don’t get hurt. I just can’t believe such a basic issue in this diocese is being ignored…

 

[Tarpeian_Rock]

I too am in the south and we do greeting before Mass and other “protestant friendly” actions. Now here is a question that I have: When i visited some of the missions in Texas, Christ on the cross was often portrayed as an Aztec Indian wearing Aztec garb so that the natives could relate to the image. So, is it possible in a similar way that protestant mannerisms are being incorporated into parishes which are heavily protestant so that the “indigenous” protestants can relate to the Catholic faith? Just asking.

I truly don’t understand your characterization. Greeting each other - before Mass, no less - is a “protestant” thing to do? That would make ignoring each other “Catholic?”

 

[coachkfan1]

I truly don’t understand your characterization. Greeting each other - before Mass, no less - is a “protestant” thing to do? That would make ignoring each other “Catholic?”

I mean being instructed to “let’s all take a moment now and greet one another” and then we say good morning and so forth. It is similar to passing of the peace during Mass but it is before. I’m ok with it, but there definately should be a crucifix present, which there is in my parish. But there is no incense, no bells, and some other things that are typically Catholic and that which protestants may be uncomfortable with for whatever reason. There is a statue o f Our Lady of Guadalupe.