No Crucifixes in Church or Mass

[coachkfan1]

That’s a good point, and I was wondering if that was the root of the issue. However, as asia53 stated, we still have the GIRM that requires the crucifix. True, parishes can integrate cultural customs (different languages, music style, etc.) so long as they don’t add to or take away from the GIRM and Mass rubrics.

I can understand “wanting to relate” to the Protestant majority population, but a some point we have to draw the line and say “we’re Catholic.” I don’t want our Truth being diluted just so someone’s feelings don’t get hurt. I just can’t believe such a basic issue in this diocese is being ignored…

I agree with you totally. There must be a line, i was just throwing the previous idea out there as a possible explanation for some of these things.

 

[TimothyH]

I truly don’t understand your characterization. Greeting each other - before Mass, no less - is a “protestant” thing to do? That would make ignoring each other “Catholic?”

I sometimes wonder if there is a “Jesus and me” attitude in some parts of our Church which isn’t closer to Evangelical Protestant Jesus-and-me theology than some realize.

-Tim-

 

[Cavaradossi]

Is that so? I wonder how that difference came about. What did the Desert Fathers focus on? Are there icons of Jesus crucified?

There are icons of the crucifixion and crucifixes which are used in the Eastern tradition. The focus is less on the cross alone but rather on the entire paschal mystery. The crucifixion, harrowing of Hades, and the resurrection all go together as part of the mystery which provides for our salvation (also to this list, I would add the incarnation, the baptism of Christ, and the Transfiguration). I think from the Eastern perspective, at least, trying to argue that one of those events was more necessary than another or that one alone was sufficient for the salvation of man would be a futile exercise, because they are all necessary.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Is that so? I wonder how that difference came about. What did the Desert Fathers focus on? Are there icons of Jesus crucified?

Adding to what Cavaradossi said, its just emphasis on the theology. The West focuses on atonement as the means to salvation. And there is no greater act of atonement than the Sacrifice of Christ which atoned for all our sins. In the East the means of salvation is Theosis. And the achievement of Theosis is our final Resurrection.

This doesn’t mean that the Resurrection is secondary in the West, and the Sacrifice is secondary in the East. It is just the culmination of the entire theology built on each side where eventually the emphasis is placed upon. That is why even during Lent, we do not kneel in the East during Sundays because it is still a little Easter despite the nature of the season. And this is perhaps why in the West, kneeling become a norm even on days of Great Feast, even on Easter itself.

 

[TrueLight]

Adding to what Cavaradossi said, its just emphasis on the theology. The West focuses on atonement as the means to salvation. And there is no greater act of atonement than the Sacrifice of Christ which atoned for all our sins. In the East the means of salvation is Theosis. And the achievement of Theosis is our final Resurrection.

This doesn’t mean that the Resurrection is secondary in the West, and the Sacrifice is secondary in the East. It is just the culmination of the entire theology built on each side where eventually the emphasis is placed upon. That is why even during Lent, we do not kneel in the East during Sundays because it is still a little Easter despite the nature of the season. And this is perhaps why in the West, kneeling become a norm even on days of Great Feast, even on Easter itself.

Verrrrry interesting, Cavaradossi and Constantine. Do you have a book you can recommend on theosis?

 

[Rich_C]

pamnbam,

I don’t know how old or catechized your children are at this point, but if I had kids I would run, not walk, from a parish that obscured the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass that way.

If being in the parish school is a priority, why not set up electronic payments each week (parishes love this, it saves them printing costs) then attend Mass elsewhere.

Still, if the liturgy is problematic, I’d say doublecheck the school.

 

[pamnbam]

pamnbam,

I don’t know how old or catechized your children are at this point, but if I had kids I would run, not walk, from a parish that obscured the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass that way.

If being in the parish school is a priority, why not set up electronic payments each week (parishes love this, it saves them printing costs) then attend Mass elsewhere.

Still, if the liturgy is problematic, I’d say doublecheck the school.

Thanks for the advice. I was afraid of this…

When I was a Catholic school teacher, I couldn’t wait to have kids and put them in Catholic school. The irony of moving to a diocese like this (again, it’s not just my parish)…I never knew they existed. Families also have to provide “time and talent” to the parish/school to get the parishioner rate.

I think I need to speak to the pastor when I go to Mass there again. I just wish there was a quick fix for the diocesan problem; I feel I’d be more likely to get the crucifix if it was just my parish. But since this is the way it is throughout the diocese, it seems like it would be harder to change.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Verrrrry interesting, Cavaradossi and Constantine. Do you have a book you can recommend on theosis?

Theology of the Body has a lot on Theosis and is approached using Western Theology, it would fit your spirituality. Yes, the Ukrainian Church sneaked one into the Papacy (okay, its not official that Pope John Paul II’s mother is Ukrainian Catholic).

I haven’t found a good book on it yet from an Eastern source. Though I am biased for books written by priests, bishops or monks. Orthodox or Eastern Catholic (usually the Orthodox publishes more books).

 

[RyanBlack]

Verrrrry interesting, Cavaradossi and Constantine. Do you have a book you can recommend on theosis?

Partakers of Divine Nature by Archimandrite Christoforos Stavropoulos, Deification in Christ by Panayiotis Nellas, and The Deification of Man by Georgios Mantzaridis all deal with theosis. I especially recommend Stavropoulos and Nellas.

 

[TrueLight]

Theology of the Body has a lot on Theosis and is approached using Western Theology, it would fit your spirituality.

How so?

Partakers of Divine Nature by Archimandrite Christoforos Stavropoulos, Deification in Christ by Panayiotis Nellas, and The Deification of Man by Georgios Mantzaridis all deal with theosis. I especially recommend Stavropoulos and Nellas.

Are all of these books $20?

Thanks for the recommendations Constantine and Ryan.

 

[ConstantineTG]

How so?

One of the themes of Theology of the Body is “God became man so that man may become gods”. That is Theosis. And because it was writing by Pope John Paul II, its approach is more Western.

 

[andrewstx]

Verrrrry interesting, Cavaradossi and Constantine. Do you have a book you can recommend on theosis?

I’m not cavaradossi or constantine. but I recomend THE ORTHODOX WAY by bishop Callistos aka Timothy Ware.

 

[TrueLight]

I’m not cavaradossi or constantine. but I recomend THE ORTHODOX WAY by bishop Callistos aka Timothy Ware.

This looks like a good overview on the spirituality. I ordered it and I should get it by Thursday.

Thanks for the recommendation!

I’m sure I’ll get to the other two eventually, but I’m being cheap…umm… frugal this week.

 

[RyanBlack]

How so?

Are all of these books $20?

Thanks for the recommendations Constantine and Ryan.

I just checked Amazon. You could get a used copy of the Mantzaridis for slightly less than $20. The other two will cost around $25. Of the three, I recommend Nellas the most, if you have a background in theology. If not, I recommend the Stavropoulos, then Nellas, then Manzaridis.

 

[ConstantineTG]

This looks like a good overview on the spirituality. I ordered it and I should get it by Thursday.

Thanks for the recommendation!

I’m sure I’ll get to the other two eventually, but I’m being cheap…umm… frugal this week.

You want cheap?

conciliarpress.com/products/Theosis%3A-Partakers-of-the-Divine-Nature.html

Mind you its a concise intro. The OCA parish close to where I live even gives this away for free (or so I think, I took some without paying, I hope I am not stealing ) so perhaps you can even stop by your neighborhood Orthodox parish (better if its OCA) and see if they have this for free or even for the price listed on this website.

 

[NeedImprovement]

1AugustSon7;9237521:

That is actually a very serious error.

The Ressurection was not necessary for salvation; it is, however, a confirmation of our Faith in Christ and the general ressurection that the faithful of Israel always believed in (alluded to, e.g., by Abraham’s sacrifice of his son, Isaac; the Church Fathers also teach that the Day of Wrath/Judgement Day was alluded to in (then) Abram’s vision: 12

] And when the sun was setting, a deep sleep fell upon Abram, and a great and darksome horror seized upon him. He may also here have seen Our Lord’s Passion and death upon the Cross.)

Our Lord’s Passion and death are, however, a unity: from the Last Supper until He gave up the Ghost, there is a strict unity, made manifest by the Last Supper’s pointing, as it were, to His death on the Cross. The whole ritual was not completed until He consummated it upon the Cross: it would be a serious error to divorce the sacrifice of the Cross from the Last Supper.

The Ressurection is Our Lord’s greatest miracle and another demonstration of His Divinity: He raised Himself by His own power: no mere man has such a power; it was not, however, necessary for our redemption or salvation.

Finally, the Ressurection was necessary as a fulfillment of prophecy, but not for our redemption or salvation: hence it is seen as a miraculous confirmation of our Faith in Christ.

Yet the celebration of the Eucharist is a memorial of Christ’s death and ressurection. It is not a memorial of Christ’s death alone.

-Tim-

Good point Tim . I don’t think we can really separate the resurrection from Christ’s death either. After all, what did He rise from ?

I thought Father John Hardon S.J. said it well in his Modern Catholic Dictionary

EXCERPT:

. . . Theologically the Resurrection, unlike the death of Christ, is not the meritorious cause of human redemption. It is the victorious completion of redemption. It belongs to the perfection of redemption and is therefore associated in the Scriptures with Christ’s death on the Cross as one complete whole. It is the model and, in the person of the risen Christ, the channel of grace for our spiritual redemption from sin and for our bodily resurrection on the Last Day.

It’s commendable and necessary to be able to correctly technically define the meritorious Cause of human redemption , but anytime I see the words "the resurrection was not necessary. . . " , used to qualify this analysis , I wonder if people ever really pause to consider all the impracticalities of the alternative …

**IF THERE HAD BEEN NO RESURRECTION OF OUR BLESSED LORD AFTER HIS PASSION AND DEATH **:

• We would have no feast of the Ascension - nor, by extension, any feast of the Assumption.
• How would the apostles ever have been able to believe (while all those Easter accounts of the risen Christ from sacred scripture are still fresh in the minds) ?
• How could our own faith ever have been transmitted - as a story of some guy who died and said it would save us (while it didn’t even appear to save him) ?
• How would St. Peter have been able to repent after denying Christ 3 times ?
• How could we have a devotion to the Sacred Wounds ?
• How could we have a devotion to the Sacred Heart ?
• How could we have a devotion to the Divine Mercy ?
• “Let us proclaim the mystery of faith : Christ has died. Christ will come again.” (Yeah - right)
• " He is risen as he said. Alleluia ! " , becomes “He is still in the tomb. Alleluia”.
• How could our Blessed Mothers Heart - “pierced with a sword of sorrows” , ever have been consoled ?
• His body would have to have undergone corruption, (thus many other passages of scripture would have to have been rewritten or they would have remained unfulfilled or contradictory).

I’m sure there are a lot more you guys could add to the list .

1 Corinthians 15:13-19

If there is no resurrection of the dead, then neither has Christ been raised.

And if Christ has not been raised, then empty (too) is our preaching; empty, too, your faith.

Then we are also false witnesses to God, because we testified against God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if in fact the dead are not raised.

For if the dead are not raised, neither has Christ been raised,

and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is vain; you are still in your sins.

Then those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.

If for this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are the most pitiable people of all.

 

[TrueLight]

You want cheap?

conciliarpress.com/products/Theosis%3A-Partakers-of-the-Divine-Nature.html

Oh my goodness. Thank you!

I’m not cavaradossi or constantine. but I recomend THE ORTHODOX WAY by bishop Callistos aka Timothy Ware.

I just started reading this book. It is awesome! I wish there was a place on the EC forum to discuss Eastern theology. Most of the threads are debate threads.

 

[Cavaradossi]

Oh my goodness. Thank you!

I just started reading this book. It is awesome! I wish there was a place on the EC forum to discuss Eastern theology. Most of the threads are debate threads.

You could always start a thread and cross your fingers, hoping that it won’t devolve into debate.

 

[Nicea325]

Hello all! I recently moved from a diocese that was very faithful to the magisterium to one where I’m not so sure. I’m used to seeing the crucified Jesus above the altar in all the churches I used to attend. In my new diocese, altar crucifixes, even processional crucifixes, are few and far between. During Lent, my church had a crucifix up, but after Easter, there’s now a statue of the risen Lord in its place. I’m told this happens every year. I’m very disturbed that there is no crucifix in my new parish, not even one being processed at the beginning of Mass. I’ve read the GIRM and I know what should be in place during Mass, but it’s not being done. Visiting a few other parishes tells me that this is not just a parish problem. The two churches in my diocese run by religious priests are the only two with crucifixes. To make things more interesting, my kid is starting kindergarten at my new parish this fall. I want him to understand the beauty of our Lord’s sacrifice, but I don’t want to be the “new kid on the block” making demands about what’s in our church. As you can see, this is a diocesan problem. The bishop must clearly know what’s going on if these identical “Risen Lord” statues are above most every altar in his diocese. I know that’s who I need to go to, but will it do any good? I’m a former Protestant, and there are other things going on at my church which seem illicit; not having a crucifix, especially these other Protestant church behaviors take me back to a place I don’t want to go. I left that Protestant world for the real one. For now, I’m going to the Masses at the two other Churches. This is fine until my kid starts school and we’ll need to show proof of parish attendance through the stewardship envelopes. I guess I could bring the envelopes to the parish office each week… But what would you do? Would you still try the bishop? Is there any recourse if he’s unwilling to correct the issue? Is this just small potatoes/am I being selfish. This is really bothering me and I haven’t brought it up to my husband yet/not sure he’ll understand. I’m having dreams about Mass at my old parish and my former Catholic school teaching days when we revered the crucifix. Any help? Thanks in advance!

Have you spoke to the pastor or Pastordal Coordinator depending what your parish has the moment? The Liturgy Committee needs to read the GIRM or Liturgy Documents.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I just started reading this book. It is awesome! I wish there was a place on the EC forum to discuss Eastern theology. Most of the threads are debate threads.

There is. And it will be refreshing to talk about something that isn’t a debate. Although I wouldn’t be surprised if someone made it a debate. But lets just ignore those debate mongers and learn.