No future for Europe without return to Christian roots, says Cardinal Kasper [CNA]

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Now, if only your principled restraint was reciprocated by non-European posters when a European country is being discussed…🙂
 
Yellow_Belle said:
That is rich coming from someone whose world view consists of dividing the world’s population into Left and Right, where Left = everything that is wrong and evil (and probably European), and Right = all that is good and wholesome (and almost certainly not European)
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You started out the thread respectfully disagreeing with a European cardinal of you own purportedly Catholic faith. You have since regressed into calling him naive, and simple and unworthy of discussion, as he is only prone to giving out ‘sound bites’.

Now, when shown that his was actually a rather educated position, instead of getting into a discussion worthy of your intelligence and education, you have resorted into simplifying the discussion into a few simplistic sound bites of your own.

Cardinal Kaspar is both a European and a Catholic. He is demonstrably educated and his arguments have a depth that yours and Jarek’s and the of all European nationalities simply do not.

His ideas on Europe are worthy of discussion in a Catholic forum. They *are *relevant.

Unfortunately, European Catholics here, who portray their own Church and their own Church history as fascistic here, have shown themselves as not worthy of the discussion he raises.

I stand by what I said. The ‘religious’ left often confuses the gospel of Jesus with the gospel of Karl Marx. Now while the fact that the two were two bearded Jewish gentlemen, the difference between the two is quite apparent when it is realized that Marx was the one that lived long enough to develop strands of gray in his thick facial tresses. “Right thinking” people really ought not to think of his gospel as Christian at all. It is a weak caricature of the Christian faith, a real Greecian formula that does not take the ‘gray’ out of Europe in the least, but leads only to ruinously unsustainable social programs being financed by grandchildren that will not exist.

Europe is not so different from the rest of Western civilization, and it is not at all certain that North America is all that far behind into the same void of the future that is only now appearing on the eastern horizon.

You cannot refute my basic points, nor has any European yet refuted the basic mathematics behind the demographic argument. Nobody has yet given a good refutation of the Philip Longman’s numbers.
That is because there is no refutation of them.

Instead, Europeans in these forums have chosen to play the part of the persecuted, long suffering victims of American buffoonery and simplistic cardinals who are a relic of a European past better left in Europe’s embarrassing, rather fascistic past.
 
Yellow_Belle said:
A study published in 2006 on European religious attitudes states that a majority of young people in Europe still describe themselves as ‘religious’ and that that majority is increasing. But they have no sense of ‘belonging’ to a church. They believe but are unchurched."

This must be the same thing as people calling themselves “spiritual” but don’t attend any formal religious church… in other words they don’t want to be bothered to conform to any standards of behavior other than their own. Seems like a vague, feeling around in the dark kind of way to view your faith. Jesus came to establish His church and like it or not, if we consider ourselves Christian, we have an obligation to try to follow the teachings of His church. He didn’t go to all the trouble of coming down to earth and living and dying for us so that we can have some kind of hazy, nebulous notion of faith and truth.
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What one has to remember is that this is CAF and the ‘political agenda’ of most of the denizens of the boards is, well, ‘what it is’. Within an American context it probably makes sense because the American ‘dialogue’ is also ‘what it is’ - meanings are framed in that context and, while different sides may disagree, they, at least, share frameworks for ‘seeing’.

When they conceptualize Europe using those meanings, it seems bonkers to us because our political ‘dialogue’ is different and even the words we use have different meanings that convey different histories (like when they use the word ‘socialist’ and an Irish Republican and a British Tory both tend to the view that they wouldn’t know what a ‘socialist’ was if one bit them on the . . . .). So, while we think we’re all just getting on with it here in Europe, to the American Conservatives of CAF, we’re all part of some great working out of destiny, of Good and Evil, of Christianity and Islam, of Freedom and Socialism.

Now, Europeans know an awful lot about a politics that works in that kind of way, we’ve killed off countless millions of each other for those ‘black/white’ reasons. Not that anybody would listen, of course.
 
It will happen in line with the kind of relentlessly accurate mathematics that successfully predicted that billions of us would die of swine flu last winter.
 
QUOTE=Darryl1958;6668273]You started out the thread respectfully disagreeing with a European cardinal of you own purportedly Catholic faith. You have since regressed into calling him naive, and simple and unworthy of discussion, as he is only prone to giving out ‘sound bites’.
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Now, when shown that his was actually a rather educated position, instead of getting into a discussion worthy of your intelligence and education, you have resorted into simplifying the discussion into a few simplistic sound bites of your own.
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Cardinal Kaspar is both a European and a Catholic. He is demonstrably educated and his arguments have a depth that yours and Jarek’s and the of all European nationalities simply do not.
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His ideas on Europe are worthy of discussion in a Catholic forum. They *are *
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relevant.

Unfortunately, European Catholics here, who portray their own Church and their own Church history as fascistic here, have shown themselves as not worthy of the discussion he raises.

I stand by what I said. The ‘religious’ left often confuses the gospel of Jesus with the gospel of Karl Marx. Now while the fact that the two were two bearded Jewish gentlemen, the difference between the two is quite apparent when it is realized that Marx was the one that lived long enough to develop strands of gray in his thick facial tresses. “Right thinking” people really ought not to think of his gospel as Christian at all. It is a weak caricature of the Christian faith, a real Greecian formula that does not take the ‘gray’ out of Europe in the least, but leads only to ruinously unsustainable social programs being financed by grandchildren that will not exist.

Europe is not so different from the rest of Western civilization, and it is not at all certain that North America is all that far behind into the same void of the future that is only now appearing on the eastern horizon.

You cannot refute my basic points, nor has any European yet refuted the basic mathematics behind the demographic argument. Nobody has yet given a good refutation of the Philip Longman’s numbers.
That is because there is no refutation of them.

Instead, Europeans in these forums have chosen to play the part of the persecuted, long suffering victims of American buffoonery and simplistic cardinals who are a relic of a European past better left in Europe’s embarrassing, rather fascistic past.

I started out by disagreeing with the Cardinal because what he said did not resonate with me or with anything I know of how Europeans in general think. To me, his words did not address the European situation as it is, the reality of the widespread disillusionment with the institutional Church, and the perception that, through its own misjudgements and preference for self preservation, it has lost its authority and credibility. You may not like that characterisation - and I’m not too happy with it myself - but it is a very real perception in Europe and it is based on the institutional Church’s own behaviour in European history.

I have no doubt that the Cardinal is an educated, thoughtful man but even educated, thoughtful people can live in ivory towers, be naive, move in rarified intellectual company, and fail to grasp the reality and complexity of a situation. I have tried to convey for non-European posters something of how the Cardinal’s remarks might be received in a European context and why that might be so. Just because I am a practicing Catholic doesn’t mean I have suspended all thought and critical faculty and cannot bring my own education, intelligence and experience as a member of the laity to bear on the Cardinal’s words. I am certainly not going to agree with the Cardinal just because he’s a Cardinal and European and educated and is saying something that sounds wisely prescriptive.

I have not attempted to refute your ‘demographic argument’ because I have not seen it set out on this thread in anything other than stock-in-trade (and sadly predictable) references to ‘Eurabia’ and the evils of enforced Marxist thought. In any case, while it may be your pet hobby horse, it is not immediately relevant to the topic at hand… vis… what is the Cardinal saying, where is he coming from, and are his words likely to make any kind of positive impression in Europe. And surely those are the most vital considerations?

I’m not sure what you mean by ‘American buffoonery’ - no-one here has made that charge, as far as I know - and I seriously doubt that any European poster here feels that it either exists or that they are the victim of it. I know I don’t. There is, however, such a thing as respecting ‘difference’. European posters are not given to commenting negatively and incessantly on the intricacies of American politics and culture because they recognise that they are not sufficiently informed to do so and that their perspective and experience is essentially different - and might actually be wrong! (And there is also the likelihood that they would be banned). They may be puzzled, even bemused, by many aspects of American life but they accept and respect the difference and are not inclined to stereotyping. If you have evidence to the contrary then you are free to produce it. On the other hand, I have the impression that North American posters, for the most part, seem to have no such reticence about commenting negatively and sometimes in a patently uninformed way, on Europe and Europeans, often citing I-spoke-with-a German-man- type justifications for their comments. The stereotyping of all Europeans, regardless of nationality, as godless, socialist/leftist liberals is particularly prevalent and, I think, undeniable. Again, if you have evidence that what I am saying here is incorrect, then let’s hear it.

Now I’m about to head off on business to the UK and then to mainland Europe and, as it’s unlikely I’ll have the time to continue on this thread, I’ll leave you with the last word.
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Returning to the original post, the context of the good Cardinals speech was at a symposium discussing ways to promote Christian unity. I am amazed at how much umbrage is taken against the Cardinals expressed opinion! It only proves his point!
 
Sherry_G said:
I am amazed at how much umbrage is taken against the Cardinals expressed opinion! It only proves his point!
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I don’t see anyone taking umbrage. I see vehement disagreement with his viewpoint and some frustration but no one seems to find what he said offensive, just wrongheaded. I don’t see how that proves any point about Christian unity either. Or should all Christians agree about everything, at all times, everywhere? :rolleyes:
 
Brickmaker said:
I don’t see anyone taking umbrage. I see vehement disagreement with his viewpoint and some frustration but no one seems to find what he said offensive, just wrongheaded. I don’t see how that proves any point about Christian unity either. Or should all Christians agree about everything, at all times, everywhere? :rolleyes:
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Denial by many posters that there is a crisis of faith in general in the European countries? If he were speaking about America, I would also have to agree that his point is well taken. European posters fail to acknowledge that there is a crisis of faith. I think we COULD all agree on this point at least. Everyone wants to control the WAY the point is made and become insulted that it is even being discussed. 🤷
 
Sherry_G said:
Denial by many posters that there is a crisis of faith in general in the European countries? If he were speaking about America, I would also have to agree that his point is well taken. European posters fail to acknowledge that there is a crisis of faith. I think we COULD all agree on this point at least. Everyone wants to control the WAY the point is made and become insulted that it is even being discussed. 🤷
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Perhaps you can point me to where European posters have denied that there is a crisis of faith in Europe? I must be reading a different thread.
 
livnlern said:
Yellow Belle;6666673:
A study published in 2006 on European religious attitudes states that a majority of young people in Europe still describe themselves as ‘religious’ and that that majority is increasing. But they have no sense of ‘belonging’ to a church. They believe but are unchurched.
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"
This must be the same thing as people calling themselves “spiritual” but don’t attend any formal religious church… in other words they don’t want to be bothered to conform to any standards of behavior other than their own. Seems like a vague, feeling around in the dark kind of way to view your faith. Jesus came to establish His church and like it or not, if we consider ourselves Christian, we have an obligation to try to follow the teachings of His church. He didn’t go to all the trouble of coming down to earth and living and dying for us so that we can have some kind of hazy, nebulous notion of faith and truth.
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One wonders how an un-churched people might even learn the tenets of their faith. Does Christianity so permeate Europe that one need only breathe the air to have a full understanding?
A faith without a church is a faith where pretty stones have magical powers and homosexuality is not a sin, abortion is a right and, ultimately, Jesus rising from the dead is a quaint little superstition from a Golden Age that never even really existed.
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Amen to the OP. Without a return to the Faith that made Europe strong in former times, Europe will slowly come to nothing, for anyone who labors without the Lord labors in vain.

The same goes for America; and as an American citizen I can vouch that all the jibber-jabber about America being some kind of Christian (albiet protestant) stronghold is greatly exaggerated. Identifying with Christian theology when one has to give a religious opinion is one thing - actually living by said theology is quite another.
 
Brickmaker said:
Darryl1958;6669699:
It didn’t seem to bother the Irish who were ‘unchurched’ and de-priested for a few centuries. Does anyone know how they managed it?
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Can you be more specific about this? Am not sure what you’re referring to. Maybe the oppression by the British?
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Sherry_G said:
Try post #3 for starters…
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OK post #3
I respectfully disagree. Europe may not have the future the good Cardinal would like it to have, but it DOES have a future, as does every other continent until the end of time. One could just as easily ask what kind of future Christianity will have without Europe, what will Christianity look like when the vast majority of its adherents are African and Asian?
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Not seeing any denial there. The poster anticipates a future for Europe but not a Christian one and wonders what will Christianity look like without Europe. Seems a clear acceptance that Christianity in Europe is in crisis to me.
 
Yellow_Belle said:
I started out by disagreeing with the Cardinal because what he said did not resonate with me or with anything I know of how Europeans in general think.
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Indeed, his words would not resonate with anyone who portrays their church as fascistic. They would come of as foreign-sounding, American even.
To me, his words did not address the European situation as it is
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, the reality of the widespread disillusionment with the institutional Church, and the perception that, through its own misjudgements and preference for self preservation, it has lost its authority and credibility.
On the contrary, his contemplation of a Europe without a future fully grasps where that disillusionment may lead. I would say that your opening posts failed to grasp the full import of his own words and trivialized the meaning by in effect noting how the geography would still be there. A 'Europe without a future, far from being a trite cliche, a meaningless sound bite, is in fact the sounds of a man who is fully aware of how the authority and credibility of his beloved Church is non-existent in Europe today.

Your words resonate with his own point of view, albeit from the perspective of someone who regards the church as a force of fascistic evil in Europe. He too foresees a Europe that is not Christian. On the other hand, I doubt he would blame this completely on the failings of the Church, as you do. He would doubtlessly take note of how Lenin turning Russia’s great cathedrals in granaries might have had some effect on the destruction of the faith, the role of communistic propaganda in his own words.
He only notes the existential angst, the turning to materialism and a shop till you drop mentality, and how all the other modernist solutions is not filling the void left behind. His message seems to be even if the choice is to remain un-churched, this will not fill the void of a people who are too good , too sophisticated and nuanced,and who have outgrown the simplicity of the faith that they have become disillusioned with.
You may not like that characterisation - and I’m not too happy with it myself - but it is a very real perception in Europe and it is based on the institutional Church’s own behaviour in European history.
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Saying ‘no future for Europe’ is in fact a very good summary of the perspective of a man who is not too happy with the state of affairs in Europe either.
The difference between your two positions, as far as I can see, is not that he rejects your characterization of the state of affairs in Europe today, but rather that his view of the Church is much more nuanced and proportionate than is yours. Nowhere does not deny the dirt in his article nor does not make it his primary focus either. Why would he? He merely affirms the good of Christianity in Europe, seeks ways to increase the harvest. Rather than aligning his voice with the radical atheists and secularists and blaming a fascistic Church for all her failings and for being the primary and sole author of her own destruction, he is willing to take the unpopular road and regard the Church as a source of ultimate good in Europe.
Such hope not speak of naivete or denial, as you allege. It speaks of the truth of what the Church really is, not because of her myriad sins, but in spite of them. In the face of her great sins, the good of the Church rises above the evil that has been perpetuated in her name. Like grain rising from dirt, the blessings of the Catholic Church are even now feeding the world.
The Church is the ultimate force for good in the world, and has been for the last two thousand years. It has beacon through which the message of God’s chosen people, Israel, has become broadcast globally.
I do not propose that as an article of personal faith, but as a statement of objective fact.
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Now I’m about to head off on business to the UK and then to mainland Europe and, as it’s unlikely I’ll have the time to continue on this thread, I’ll leave you with the last word.
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That…I am sorry, JC, but that is a pathetic response. It doesn’t even come close to being an answer. Anglicans, for example, are as un-churched as Catholics.
The tenet that abortion is intrinsically evil and homosexuality also are positions we as Catholics accept and agree with. It would be a vast and misleading mistake to assume that the Catholic Church represent the entirety of Christianity in Europe historically, many countries in Europe have only small minority Catholic populations.
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Just how stupid do you think that non-Europeans are??!! Here on the other side of the pond, we have Protestants too, don’t ya know. We have heard of that little thing called a Reformation.
And it used to be that all Christians considered such things as intrinsically evil.
No-one European here argued there is not a crisis of faith, to assert that we have is merely to put words in our mouths. In fact Kaninchen for example has often pointed out how apathetic people in Britain are regarding any expression of religous faith. A point I’d totally agree with her on.
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No that is right. they have just been arguing that a Catholic Cardinal has nothing useful or relevant to say on the matter, and really, need only be ridiculed as naive and wrong-headed for speaking about such things as the existential crisis, the rampant consumerism, and the myriad of other compensating behavior that have arisen in the wake of the demise of Christianity.
As a Catholic cardinal, he is just not relevant. His words only are relevant when spoken by someone else. Not worth quoting his words, not worth contemplating his thoughts…

Cardinal Kaspar is not even worth reading, right?
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